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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 03:21:19
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quote:
Now, throw out some fell power like one that simply wants EVERYTHING dead and gone; then you have a truly evil deity.
Like Shar? |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 04:42:19
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quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
Insufferable? Pretty strong language there.
That word wasn't in earnest, I added it for extra sibilance, which amused me. Sorry for the confusion. Obviously it is sufferable; I for one have suffered it.quote:
. . . not this wishy washy breaking the law kind of evil.
I don't know which Realms sources you got that impression from (the gods are barely even conscious of anything as small as mortal laws). If it's from their misportrayal in the Avatar novels, I think your problem and proposed solution are the same unnecessary phenomenon: Any god shown close up, as a willed humanlike being, will seem bathetically wishy washy unless portrayed with great poetry; any god wishing and able (see below) to destroy the world who doesn't do so will seem weak.quote:
If he instead turned to REALLY wanting to destroy the Realms, then he would be ok.
It's not a matter of wanting. If the gods could act at will directly in Faerűn, it would long ago, many times over have become a wasteland. |
Edited by - Faraer on 17 Oct 2007 04:45:25 |
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Wizbane
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 08:00:17
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We already know Asmodeus is going to be promoted. Got to have some effects on the Realms (more hell worshipping tieflings and all that).
Overall, I don't think there is a lack of charismatic evil figures in the Realms. And they are wipping out the *good* powerful figures, not the evil ones, so there will be more space for evil gods, demons, devils and underlings in any case.
Rather than a new over-powerful evil deity, I would appreciate much more a chapter on Realms involved almost-godly beings, like Malkizid, Wendonai, Bazim-Gorag, Nduulu (sp?  ), etc.
Wizbane
Edit: forget the chapter part, I would like a whole product on that. |
Edited by - Wizbane on 17 Oct 2007 08:13:04 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 16:14:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
quote:
Now, throw out some fell power like one that simply wants EVERYTHING dead and gone; then you have a truly evil deity.
Like Shar?
Shar is the closest we can get I suppose; but she is still a creator god and a "things" god in that she courts worshipers. She says she wants it all to end...but then she would end. I guess we could look at her as being in the "murder-suicide" group though...
What I'm talking about is a truly alien god without form or substance that just wants to destroy everything. Robert E. Howard and others used gods that were just plainly alien and evil in their motivations. So much so, that essentially you couldn't learn anything about them. If they had worshipers, it was because the worshipers foolishly thought that they could appease or somehow escape the doom that their "god" promised.
So again, the type of truly menacing and vile deity I'm talking about comes from an angle that mortals couldn't even perceive...and would want to avoid at all costs...unless they were forced to serve it.
Gaurgath is sort of a good evil god...but he just doesn't really do it either...he has simple motivations and doesn't want everything to end.
Thinking more on it, such a deity could never be anything more than perhaps a demi-power with the rules of Ao being considered... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 17:13:46
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quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
[quote]Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
What I'm talking about is a truly alien god without form or substance that just wants to destroy everything. Robert E. Howard and others used gods that were just plainly alien and evil in their motivations. So much so, that essentially you couldn't learn anything about them. If they had worshipers, it was because the worshipers foolishly thought that they could appease or somehow escape the doom that their "god" promised.
Ghaunadaur seems to fit this description closest. He is a total alien, ancient god (god of slimes and oozes), evil through and through, and so much different from his humanoid worshippers that is is most likely that he does not care much about them as long as the offerings keep flowing.
If this god survives the spellplague he has the potential to become one of the big evil players. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
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Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 17 Oct 2007 17:14:33 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 17:28:58
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One problem with such a god is that you get a totally different feel and "power balance" in the world. If there is one greater power of destruction that everyone fears you get a real world Satan (or even worse, Tolkien's Sauron). The gods of Faerun are about life in all its aspects; you could say that some greater being comes from another dimension with a wish to destroy everything, but that would become an over-plot over everything happening in the world. Come to think of it, this sounds like Dragonlance and the chaos-god.
As for the Howard mysterious gods, these would be more of a type of arch-demon in the terms used by D&D. Seth, Mithra and such would be more "usual" gods. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 00:08:42
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quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
Too many people are locked into Christianity's model of only selling your soul to a lower planar power...in a fantasy game where such mores don't apply...why not have it both ways?
Well, probably because in just about any culture that I'm aware of (including Faerunian culture), one's inner spirit (soul, if you will) is extremely precious and is not something to be sold for worldly gain. Therefore, any being willing to buy or trade in souls is unlikely to be benevolent. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 00:15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
Talos could be an awesome and truly evil deity, but he has been tamed by his own desire to simply destroy on a little scale to make sure he has his worshipers cowed and spreading little disasters. If he instead turned to REALLY wanting to destroy the Realms, then he would be ok. As is, the evil deities, TO ME, are weak. Now, throw out some fell power like one that simply wants EVERYTHING dead and gone; then you have a truly evil deity.
We already have that: Shar.
And I think Faraer was right on in what he said. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 00:24:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
Too many people are locked into Christianity's model of only selling your soul to a lower planar power...in a fantasy game where such mores don't apply...why not have it both ways?
Well, probably because in just about any culture that I'm aware of (including Faerunian culture), one's inner spirit (soul, if you will) is extremely precious and is not something to be sold for worldly gain. Therefore, any being willing to buy or trade in souls is unlikely to be benevolent.
Only because western civilization has had programmed into it the Christian model (not that it is bad mind you!). Why couldn't Good Powers try to buy of an evil character by giving them peace or happiness?
I actually don't think it is a bad idea myself...but that's just me. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 00:45:19
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Okay, we seem to be slowly swaying into the subject of real-world religious discussion.
I want to re-direct you all back to the topic of the scroll now, before we sway even further. 
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Edited by - The Sage on 18 Oct 2007 00:46:01 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 00:56:18
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My apologies. I was only making a comparison, and didn't realize I was going too far.
More on topic:
I'm wondering if WotC will continue to carry the Greyhawk pantheon as the core D&D pantheon or not? While I've always liked them (first AD&D world I played in); I don't feel like they are giving it justice when there is much more depth and interaction to it that isn't being touched on so far. If they do continue to use it, I hope they delve into it quite a bit more. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 02:16:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
One problem with such a god is that you get a totally different feel and "power balance" in the world. If there is one greater power of destruction that everyone fears you get a real world Satan (or even worse, Tolkien's Sauron). The gods of Faerun are about life in all its aspects; you could say that some greater being comes from another dimension with a wish to destroy everything, but that would become an over-plot over everything happening in the world. Come to think of it, this sounds like Dragonlance and the chaos-god.
As for the Howard mysterious gods, these would be more of a type of arch-demon in the terms used by D&D. Seth, Mithra and such would be more "usual" gods.
I'd like to see a Morgoth in the Realms, not a mere Sauron.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 02:28:35
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quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
My apologies. I was only making a comparison, and didn't realize I was going too far.
More on topic:
I'm wondering if WotC will continue to carry the Greyhawk pantheon as the core D&D pantheon or not? While I've always liked them (first AD&D world I played in); I don't feel like they are giving it justice when there is much more depth and interaction to it that isn't being touched on so far. If they do continue to use it, I hope they delve into it quite a bit more.
It is my thinking -- and I have nothing to back this up -- that Greyhawk was made the core setting as part of the price of getting Gary Gygax back on board. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 04:23:18
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In 4th, no Game setting will be core setting.
Just a world. If Greyhawk continues to be supported it will be supported the same way Realms will be. Any spell or item not in core will be in Game Setting, becauese it belongs in that Game Setting. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 04:50:16
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Well, luckily we can still use Mordenkainen's spells in FR...or Bigby and etc.
That used to bother me when I first started playing in the Forgotten Realms...but it was a silly quirk that I got over quickly. I just left the wizard's name off: Clenched Fist instead of Bigby's Clenched Fist and etc. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 17:39:31
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| You know, a friend of mine pointed out something about everyones slanted opinion of 4E. Before 3E came out, there was a similar hype, everyone said this is going to be horrible. Based on the poll of "which version do you play" it seem quite obvious that that transition was not a harmful one. Now, about wizards trying to make more money. The way they are going to make money is if the book is liked by the Devoted followers. that is the way it is. why? because one person will buy the book, tell his RP playing friend, 4E sucks! That friend will tell his friend and on it goes. Wizards is in the business of making money, folks, and they will do what makes them the most money, which in this case is catering to the fans |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 18:36:38
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quote:
Originally posted by aravine
You know, a friend of mine pointed out something about everyones slanted opinion of 4E. Before 3E came out, there was a similar hype, everyone said this is going to be horrible. Based on the poll of "which version do you play" it seem quite obvious that that transition was not a harmful one.
I've heard this talking point before, many times. It doesn't mean very much to me, though, because I wasn't upset when 3E FR came out, and I *AM* upset with the changes I'm hearing about now. The changes are horrible for me, and as far as I'm concerned, that is all that matters when it comes to me deciding whether or not to buy 4E Realms products.
quote:
Wizards is in the business of making money, folks, and they will do what makes them the most money, which in this case is catering to the fans.
Hah! Not to me. I've never argued that it's wrong for WotC to want to make money, but I also will not buy products that don't entertain me. It is unlikely the 4E Realms setting will entertain me to the degree that I'll want to buy products for it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 18:39:55
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I don't know if anyone has noticed this juvenile bit of marketing jargon on WotC's website:
9 out of 10 cool people play our games. The 10th is dead.
How very profound. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Tiziano
Acolyte
Italy
36 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 18:44:54
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This makes me wonder on the average maturity level of players / fans they think they have or they want to entice.
How very sad. :(
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http://www.portraitadoption.com/ |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 18:50:12
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quote:
Originally posted by aravine
You know, a friend of mine pointed out something about everyones slanted opinion of 4E. Before 3E came out, there was a similar hype, everyone said this is going to be horrible. Based on the poll of "which version do you play" it seem quite obvious that that transition was not a harmful one. Now, about wizards trying to make more money. The way they are going to make money is if the book is liked by the Devoted followers. that is the way it is. why? because one person will buy the book, tell his RP playing friend, 4E sucks! That friend will tell his friend and on it goes. Wizards is in the business of making money, folks, and they will do what makes them the most money, which in this case is catering to the fans
I have talked to a few of the players on the D&D boards who have been around since OD&D, and most of them said that they were looking forward to 3e, and are not looking forward to 4e. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 18:59:36
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| I did not find out about 3ed. untill it came and did not like it when it came. Nor do I like what I hear now. Then again, as I am dead there is no reason to worry about whether I buy the products or not. I will be a Grateful Dead as long as I have my old TSR products. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 19:34:20
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quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
Someone perhaps spawned of the disaster of 1385 that all the gods fear...Bane included. That is something I would like to see.
Then those gods are no longer seen as real powers, and when people get used to the new evil, next time it has to be trumped in turn -- just like the RSEs, this is an unsupportable, insufferable, escalating sensationalistic slippery spiralling slope. Focus on human perspectives rather than global and divine ones, do justice to what you have, treat it as real rather than sacrificing it to other purposes, and you're much better off in the longer term.
"What I would like to see."
Wasn't trying to open a debate there honestly...but since the can opened:
Insufferable? Pretty strong language there. I'm more of the understanding that it could be an evil god that is really evil; not this wishy washy breaking the law kind of evil.
Talos could be an awesome and truly evil deity, but he has been tamed by his own desire to simply destroy on a little scale to make sure he has his worshipers cowed and spreading little disasters. If he instead turned to REALLY wanting to destroy the Realms, then he would be ok. As is, the evil deities, TO ME, are weak. Now, throw out some fell power like one that simply wants EVERYTHING dead and gone; then you have a truly evil deity.
Perhaps a being like Entropy? We know that "it" is working with Tiamat, but we still don't know what "it" is or WHY "it" is working with Tiamat. It is known as the godswallower... the great nothing... Of course, there's numerous thoughts that could work here (Entropy is an avatar of Talos... or Entropy is an avatar of Shar... or that Entropy is a sphere of annihilation that is sentient and destroyed an Untheric or Orcish or some other kind of deity.... of that Entropy was an Imaskari wizard that instilled his intellect into a sphere of annihilation in order to combat the Mulhorandi pantheon.... or that the Karanoks are just insane and this is just a big sphere of annihilation). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 19:40:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Wizbane
We already know Asmodeus is going to be promoted. Got to have some effects on the Realms (more hell worshipping tieflings and all that).
Rather than a new over-powerful evil deity, I would appreciate much more a chapter on Realms involved almost-godly beings, like Malkizid, Wendonai, Bazim-Gorag, Nduulu (sp? ), etc.
Here Here!!!! I would love to see that product. There are so many lower planar individuals involved in the realms once you get to the core of many evil organizations, it would be interesting to see which ones are doing what. For instance, isn't the Iron Throne headed up by a demon... and Zhentil Keep had a few demons or devils running things... then there's Gargauth I think behind the knights of the shield... and Eltab doing his thing... and Soneillon... then the Queen trapped beneath Dun-Tharos from the novel with the lurue worshipper.
Where did you hear Asmodeus is being promoted? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 19:41:04
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I came into the Realms around the time of the 2nd edition change-over. That's part of why I've never understood the utter vehemence some people still have for the ToT... I didn't have any problem with the 3E rollout, save for two details of how it was implemented: many changes were inflicted upon the setting that didn't seem necessary, and then a lot of them were explained away with "it's always been that way!".
My issue with the upcoming 4E rollout is twofold: 1) after years of playing the RSE-of-the-week game, we're getting yet another major one, and 2) some of what little has been revealed thus far appears to be either without reason, or appears to be catering to people that have complained for years without really understanding the setting.
I emphasize the word "appears" because, as I've pointed out more than once, we really don't have much concrete info yet. I don't like some of what I've read thus far, but I'm refraining from the doom and gloom comments until I have info to back them up -- or quell them.
And about catering to fans... They're not. They're trying to get new fans. That was stated that back when 3E was new. They are trying to retain existing fans, but they are also trying to draw in new ones. And no one objects to that. What people are ultimately objecting to is the thought that the setting will be changed so much that what drew in the old fans will be gone. Right or wrong, we fear that the price of new fans will be to drive away the old fans. And it is a valid fear, I think. You can't fault people for fearing the loss of something they love, especially when the only info available indicates dramatic and undesired changes.
People are right to be apprehensive. I personally wish more people were willing to wait and see before declaring themselves done, but that's their choice.
And since people are right to be apprehensive, then it's not right to go bashing them for their fears. As much as I don't like the "4E sucks!" talk, I dislike the "People that fear 4E are idiots" talk even more. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 20:37:29
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well ... i have the "wait and see" stance ... i'll wait for when there is enough out to get a desend wacth on whats going to happen, ... and there is 4 possable outcomes
1. i like both 4E as it is and the reasoning about continuating the story from FR = no problem
2. i like 4E but not the way its reasoned in FR = i'll make up some story about why there is new stuff without changing much about status Que (prehaps KEJR's take on it)
3. i don't like 4E but like the continuation of FR = i'll use the way they tell about FR and put it on top of 3,5E version
4. i like neither = i stay where i'm at ... 3,5E |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 21:07:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't know if anyone has noticed this juvenile bit of marketing jargon on WotC's website:
9 out of 10 cool people play our games. The 10th is dead.
How very profound.
well, there goes my thought pattern |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 21:17:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And about catering to fans... They're not. They're trying to get new fans. That was stated that back when 3E was new. They are trying to retain existing fans, but they are also trying to draw in new ones. And no one objects to that. What people are ultimately objecting to is the thought that the setting will be changed so much that what drew in the old fans will be gone. Right or wrong, we fear that the price of new fans will be to drive away the old fans. And it is a valid fear, I think. You can't fault people for fearing the loss of something they love, especially when the only info available indicates dramatic and undesired changes.
Again. this is about reaching out to the largest fanbase. if they beleive they can get more money off of purely the new fans that's what they will do. however since, as I said before, they are in the business of making money, my guess is they will try to find middle ground. it is just plain foolishness to throw away a fanbase you already have. a 6th grade econ student cold tell you that. there is evidence of this in that we have been told that Drizzt and El are going to be alive. now, i agree that some people are going to be unhappy with the changes. tht's okay, that is thier right. I do not condemn them, i myself am a little aprhensive. that being said, I do not beleive they will throw all the old fans away like garbage. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Odysseus
Seeker
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 00:09:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't know if anyone has noticed this juvenile bit of marketing jargon on WotC's website:
9 out of 10 cool people play our games. The 10th is dead.
How very profound.
Well I guess I'm dead then. Nice of wotc too let me know.
What I hope they do with realms gods is rather than culling out too many . Is too reduce more too intermediate powers , and possibly group or fractionize them. So that the lesser powers, work for/tow the line of the more powerful gods. |
“Anybody can become angry, that is easy; but to be angry with the right person, and to the right degree, and at the right time, and for the right purpose, and in the right way, that is not within everybody’s power, that is not easy.” —Aristotle |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 00:19:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Odysseus
What I hope they do with realms gods is rather than culling out too many . Is too reduce more too intermediate powers , and possibly group or fractionize them. So that the lesser powers, work for/tow the line of the more powerful gods.
Well one of those Gleemax controled fiends has indicated that lessor deitties could very will become "that the lesser powers, work for/tow the line of the more powerful gods"
Of course is only current stated plans. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 00:36:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Odysseus
Well one of those Gleemax controled fiends has indicated that lessor deitties could very will become "that the lesser powers, work for/tow the line of the more powerful gods"
Of course is only current stated plans.
Lol. Is that what happened? Gleemax is an elder brain controlling the D&D R&D Staff?  |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
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