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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Sep 2007 : 21:27:05
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Isn't the 4E Realms likely a return to the state of affairs of the Ol' Grey Box? New, undetailed areas; areas that have been changed; new people to find out more about; new organisations; new ... well, lots of stuff.
I strongly doubt this new Realms will be the Realms I fell in love with (for the record, I'm not an "Old Grey Box" person--I came to the setting much later). That's really what it comes do to for me. If I don't have to change "my" Realms, why should I?
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2007 : 21:56:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I strongly doubt this new Realms will be the Realms I fell in love with (for the record, I'm not an "Old Grey Box" person--I came to the setting much later). That's really what it comes do to for me. If I don't have to change "my" Realms, why should I?
You summed up my feelings pretty nicely in just four sentences!  (it took my half a page to do so myself!). I am actually an "Old Grey Box" DM, and no matter how nostalgic we get, there's no return to those days -- at least not by a hundred year leap forward, and sweeping almost all the things we've come to love under the carpet! It may offer an easy start for all the new FR DMs, but it surely alienates old and loyal FR fans from the product line. I try to keep an optimistic mind, but deep in my heart of hearts I feel the Realmsdoom creeping on us...  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2007 : 21:58:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Maybe Drizzt will wake up and it has all been a bad dream shared by the people of the Realms and caused by Banes evil powers. The year is 1357 and the priests of Bhaal are plotting against Azoun, so hurry up heroes.
No? Didn't think so .
Jorkens, you have my vote as the next Leading FR Designer!   |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2007 : 22:51:40
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| I vote for Drizzt coming out of the shower and realizing that one entire season was just a dream...no wait...that was Bobby Ewing |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2007 : 23:00:59
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I'm wondering how close I'll be with the following scenario . . . imagine if you will a 4th edition "social challenge:"
DM: The guardsmen seems to have information that your character's want.
Fighter: I'll use blunt language on him. I get a 23.
DM: Hm, you definitely stunned him with your blunt words, but his ego seems intact. He counters with sharp words, and rolls a 19. He his sharp words damage your ego.
Fighter: Damn, I'm at negatives. I'll need a cure light self esteem from the bard.
Bard: Okay, but see if your ego is stabilized. If its just bruised, I don't want to waste a spell. In the meantime, I'm flanking the guard and using piercing insight.
DM: Oh, no good, the guardsman is too dense for piercing insight.
Bard: Damn, well, next round I'll try acidic wit.
DM: The guardsman attacks you with biting words.
Bard: Ouch. I guess I should have gotten Thick Skin.
Cleric: I'm using guilt trip, and I rolled a natural 20!
DM: You words cut him to the quick, and he gives up the information.
Bard: Man, I love these roleplaying heavy sessions. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2007 : 23:06:22
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Nicely put, KEJr
And if by this "teach WotC a lesson" tactic the FR line becomes a novel-only world - and let's not start the hoary old chestnut of "it would then revert to Ed and utopia beckons" line because his old contract states he gets to write a novel a year or it reverts - what have you gained?
From speaking personally to Ed he wants the fans to support the Realms, work with the setting, come up with their own FR homebrew, and continue to make it a living, breathing world. I don't see how a boycott or abandonment of FR products in 4E is going to do that.
-- George Krashos
So should people just buy products they don't want to use, then? What's the point of that? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2007 : 23:19:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
You summed up my feelings pretty nicely in just four sentences! (it took my half a page to do so myself!).
Heh, thank you. For the record I agree with a lot of what you have to say, as well (and Mace, and Knight, and Markus, and many others here...). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2007 : 23:36:59
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Well, as my last post on this particular thread, I'll make a few points.
Firstly, in relation to buying FR products and the proposed 4E FR products, I was not telling anyone to buy stuff "they didn't like". Mind you, I can't understand people saying they are not going to like something before they've seen it. I'm hoping that people realise however that supporting the FR product line is important for the future of the line. That's a fairly straightforward proposition one would think.
Secondly, I've been around maling lists and message boards and the Realms for a long, long time. The fan agitation that accompanies changes to the Realms has always been present. Sometimes it's been 'storm in a teacup' stuff (like the "Threat From the Sea" bogeyman on the old Realms-L), other times it's had more substance (like the ToT, which did change games and campaigns). What has always struck me about this fan agitation is that it has on the whole been predominately negative. Every single time. And usually accompanied by the standard threats to stop buying FR products and greater or lesser degrees of vitriol (or barely veiled vitriol) towards the writers and designers employed by TSR/WotC.
Throughout all that, the Realms has grown and prospered. Every edition of the game has enhanced the Realms in terms of both gaming stuff and realmslore. Especially the latter, for the game mechanics may change but the realmslore usually remains fairly unchanged (and yes, I know I'm generalizing here). IMHO, GHotR caps off a pretty good bunch of 3E products where the realmslore has been top notch. Easily equal to all other editions.
Speaking personally, I don't regret any of the edition changes and the changes wrought on the Realms by such edition changes over the years. Each has given me a greater understanding of aspects of the Realms. Every single one. I do not expect 4E to be any different.
So when people say "why should I buy products I don't want to use?" or "I strongly doubt that this new Realms will be the one I fell in love with" or "the old guard fans aren't wanted anymore", when there is absolutely nothing but huge assumptions and suppositions driving those feelings, I get somewhat bewildered.
We are all here because we love the Realms. As with any relationship, you have to work on it to make it succeed. You don't just give up or walk away without trying, and you don't base your decisions on anything other than fact or reality (well, you shouldn't!). Wait for the 4E campaign setting, wait to see what Dragon online has for you, wait to read "Blackstaff Tower" and then make an informed decision that the Realms 'sux' and then walk away.
Until then, when someone posts something positive, perhaps give them the respect of their beliefs and convictions, and take on board a little of what they have to say and draw some courage or solace from it. I for one hate drowning in a sea of negativity.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2007 : 23:53:07
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
So when people say "why should I buy products I don't want to use?" or "I strongly doubt that this new Realms will be the one I fell in love with" or "the old guard fans aren't wanted anymore", when there is absolutely nothing but huge assumptions and suppositions driving those feelings, I get somewhat bewildered.
That's your choice. I think I've stated my opinions in a pretty reasonable matter.
Besides, can you honestly say that the sample chapter of The Orc King is all just assumption and supposition? That's a real book, and it's canon.
quote:
Until then, when someone posts something positive, perhaps give them the respect of their beliefs and convictions, and take on board a little of what they have to say and draw some courage or solace from it. I for one hate drowning in a sea of negativity.
You know, George, not everyone who isn't happy about 4E FR news so far is "drowning in negativity". I'm actually pretty happy right now in my life. I'm going to Vermont in one month and I can't wait to see the beautiful autumn colors and wildlife there. I'm sad about what I've heard so far regarding the Realms, but my whole life does not revolve around that.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 12 Sep 2007 23:54:24 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 00:00:15
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| PS: I think I've said this before, but I have no plans to "leave the Realms". I'll always be a Realms fan, I'm just not sure that I'll continue to buy official products. If I dislike the new version of the settings, I will not buy products simply to "show support". Supporting a product line one no longer finds entertaining is makes no sense at all, and it's not like there's nothing else in the world to spend hard-earned money on. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 13 Sep 2007 00:02:28 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 01:30:28
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Cleric: I'm using guilt trip, and I rolled a natural 20!
Brother Knight, this is priceless! |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 01:55:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
With 4e, if I were to play at the new time (whenever that may be) all the books would basically become obsoletem...
This conclusion doesn't follow.
I play in the current timeline, yet use any and all books that detail the Realms prior to 'now', up to and including tomes that talk about the Realms as it was thousands of years ago (Lost Empires of Faerûn, anyone?).
The idea that the books will become obsolete, and that this 'disrespects' the customer somehow just doesn't make sense to me.
I can see where people are coming from, it's just that the idea is flawed.
Note Realms fans floated this argument during the transition from 2E to 3E as well, but it was just as superfluous then as now. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 02:08:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
With 4e, if I were to play at the new time (whenever that may be) all the books would basically become obsoletem...
This conclusion doesn't follow.
I play in the current timeline, yet use any and all books that detail the Realms prior to 'now', up to and including tomes that talk about the Realms as it was thousands of years ago (Lost Empires of Faerûn, anyone?).
The idea that the books will become obsolete, and that this 'disrespects' the customer somehow just doesn't make sense to me.
I can see where people are coming from, it's just that the idea is flawed.
Note Realms fans floated this argument during the transition from 2E to 3E as well, but it was just as superfluous then as now.
Or you could do something sneaky by hiding away a plot element or idea from the current books and having it return or pop up during the new year of the Realms. Like the did recently with Bane or the Shades.
They dropped something about Shade and Selunarra in the 2ed Arcane Age Book Netheril, then a couple of our years later those plot hooks appear with greater importance during 3ed. Something barely mentioned in 3ed could come back to roost in 4ed.
So the books might not become useless, but merely first hints of future adventures. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 04:02:45
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well, as my last post on this particular thread, I'll make a few points.
Firstly, in relation to buying FR products and the proposed 4E FR products, I was not telling anyone to buy stuff "they didn't like". Mind you, I can't understand people saying they are not going to like something before they've seen it. I'm hoping that people realise however that supporting the FR product line is important for the future of the line. That's a fairly straightforward proposition one would think.
Secondly, I've been around maling lists and message boards and the Realms for a long, long time. The fan agitation that accompanies changes to the Realms has always been present. Sometimes it's been 'storm in a teacup' stuff (like the "Threat From the Sea" bogeyman on the old Realms-L), other times it's had more substance (like the ToT, which did change games and campaigns). What has always struck me about this fan agitation is that it has on the whole been predominately negative. Every single time. And usually accompanied by the standard threats to stop buying FR products and greater or lesser degrees of vitriol (or barely veiled vitriol) towards the writers and designers employed by TSR/WotC.
Throughout all that, the Realms has grown and prospered. Every edition of the game has enhanced the Realms in terms of both gaming stuff and realmslore. Especially the latter, for the game mechanics may change but the realmslore usually remains fairly unchanged (and yes, I know I'm generalizing here). IMHO, GHotR caps off a pretty good bunch of 3E products where the realmslore has been top notch. Easily equal to all other editions.
Speaking personally, I don't regret any of the edition changes and the changes wrought on the Realms by such edition changes over the years. Each has given me a greater understanding of aspects of the Realms. Every single one. I do not expect 4E to be any different.
So when people say "why should I buy products I don't want to use?" or "I strongly doubt that this new Realms will be the one I fell in love with" or "the old guard fans aren't wanted anymore", when there is absolutely nothing but huge assumptions and suppositions driving those feelings, I get somewhat bewildered.
We are all here because we love the Realms. As with any relationship, you have to work on it to make it succeed. You don't just give up or walk away without trying, and you don't base your decisions on anything other than fact or reality (well, you shouldn't!). Wait for the 4E campaign setting, wait to see what Dragon online has for you, wait to read "Blackstaff Tower" and then make an informed decision that the Realms 'sux' and then walk away.
Until then, when someone posts something positive, perhaps give them the respect of their beliefs and convictions, and take on board a little of what they have to say and draw some courage or solace from it. I for one hate drowning in a sea of negativity.
-- George Krashos
George, I respect you and your work greatly, and I hope that in my posts I have not come across as being intentionally disrespectful of anyone else that is a Realms fan. When I said that I have no problem with anyone that truly enjoys the new direction of the Realms picking up the new books I mean it. If it becomes special to them in the same way the Realms have been special to me for years, I'm happy for them.
That having been said, its not the Realms that I have been playing in and reading about for 20 years. I'm not saying that WOTC doesn't have the right to do what they will with the setting, nor am I saying that they need to serve my needs moreso than other fans. All I am saying is that they are not serving my needs for the setting, which will cause me to not support the setting beyond the 1385 DR timeline. I don't think that is particularly unreasonable.
Honestly, I know its hard to figure out tone and inflection from internet posts, but honestly, most of my mixed bag of stronger emotions are pretty well spent on this. It is what it is, and what it is isn't for me, and there isn't anything I can really do about it. As I have said, I'll still pick up Realms products from before the 1385 timeline, especially books like the Knights of Myth Drannor books, if they are produced.
I understand that you want to see the Realms continue, and for it to continue it has to show that it has some support. However, its not blackmail or a boycott to say that I don't want to send the message that I'll buy anything FR. If I buy the 4th edition FRCS, and what looks like the future portrayed in The Orc King is the norm from here on out, then the only message that I can send by buying it is "this is what I want." They won't look at an e-mail from me saying "I bought this, but this is what I really wanted," nor will they see it if I put a message on my dollar bills saying, "I'm buying this because I want you to go back to 1385 and change things." The single most simple market research a company can is basic sales, and if the 4th edition FRCS sells well, the tacit implication is that what is in the book is generally wanted by the fans.
I can only see this as telling WOTC that its okay to keep a few proper names but "clean" house and start over rather than giving us the details that a lot of us here seem to want. We don't know if we are a large percentage of the fandom, but we do know what we expect of the Realms, and we really should be true to what we want. Worse yet, WOTC could see success of the 4th edition FRCS as approval to jump the timeline ahead decades at a time whenever they want a "fresh start." It would be less troubling if they hadn't already proven that they might consider something like this with the DragonLance setting.
As RF said, I'll always be a Realms fan, but I may not be a fan of the future Realms products. I still love the work of every person in your post George, and I have great respect for them. And I have the utmost respect for anyone that wants to check this out, and I'll harbor no hard feelings for anyone for whom this new vision "works." I'm not threatening nor ranting, but I do feel its important at this juncture to make how I feel and what I'm doing going into the future perfectly clear.
Thanks for taking the time to respond to all of us, and thank you for taking the time to care about the Realms and put so much effort into it over the years. It has definitely helped to make it a special place for me. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 05:14:25
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FWIW one on Design team says they are reading feedback and might adjust for it as well.
There was even talk of polls, however I have not seen one from WotC yet about anything. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Thauglor
Acolyte
Brazil
36 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 05:46:23
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I haven't been active here for long George, so I can't actually say anything about the quality of your work. However, by what I've read in these forums all these years, it seems your work should be praised, as KnightErrantJR correctly posted.
Anyway, I'll add a couple more ideas to this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
(snip)Mind you, I can't understand people saying they are not going to like something before they've seen it.
I see the point here not as a question of liking what's to come or not. The central focus of debating this possible future for the Realms is showing what we don't want to see before it's too late.
I know you caught my meaning but here it goes for the sake of concluding the thought. And I'll do that with a question.
Would you rather try to minimize the damage an external history change would do to the internal history of Faerun, accept what couldn't be avoided and continue frolicly playing?
Or would you just sit tight, wait to see how far the RSE would have gone, and if that 50% chance (I'm being optmistic) of the setting being screwed up happened, you'd then say you didn't like it and move away?
The base of all these debates is that "none of us want to move away" from the future FR, Orc King and Points of Light included. However, if by the historical background of the publisher we predict doom to the setting, it's just natural we'll try to repair the ship early on and not give it even a tiny chance of sinking.
quote:
I'm hoping that people realise however that supporting the FR product line is important for the future of the line. That's a fairly straightforward proposition one would think.
I'm certain most of us do realise how important our support is, and that is exactly why we say "hey, change is good, but please, not so much, because it'll break my heart if you kill the world I came to love."
quote:
Secondly, I've been around maling lists and message boards and the Realms for a long, long time. The fan agitation that accompanies changes to the Realms has always been present. (snip) Throughout all that, the Realms has grown and prospered. Every edition of the game has enhanced the Realms in terms of both gaming stuff and realmslore. Especially the latter, for the game mechanics may change but the realmslore usually remains fairly unchanged (and yes, I know I'm generalizing here). IMHO, GHotR caps off a pretty good bunch of 3E products where the realmslore has been top notch. Easily equal to all other editions.
Agreed, agreed and agreed. I even think some changes could have been deeper. One thing only, all these changes kept the Realms still the Realms. They have been localized, and even when global (ToT), they changed aspects of Faerun's society while maintaining the feel of the world.
quote:
So when people say "why should I buy products I don't want to use?" or "I strongly doubt that this new Realms will be the one I fell in love with" or "the old guard fans aren't wanted anymore", when there is absolutely nothing but huge assumptions and suppositions driving those feelings, I get somewhat bewildered.
Well, I can't, I shan't and I won't stand for every feeling laid down in the forums. It's everyone's personal opinions we may agree and disagree in several degrees of variaton. One thing I think I can say, even about your statements: they're all deeply heartfelt. We all want the Realms to go on, and we don't want to let go of it.
It must also be considered that many of us, especially the GMs I'd guess, for years, decades maybe, have put a lot of time, effort, love and money into being masters of the realms history, all the time seeking the richest setting we could present to our fellow players. How can anyone ask us to leave behind, in such short notice, all we've lived throughout this period?
quote:
We are all here because we love the Realms. As with any relationship, you have to work on it to make it succeed. You don't just give up or walk away without trying, and you don't base your decisions on anything other than fact or reality (well, you shouldn't!). Wait for the 4E campaign setting, wait to see what Dragon online has for you, wait to read "Blackstaff Tower" and then make an informed decision that the Realms 'sux' and then walk away.
Everyone here is still waiting for more information. Regrettably, unless we keep to ourselves waiting until WotC finally releases some solid information, the only thing we can do is debate possible outcomes. I'm fairly certain decisions have not yet been made by any of us. We have nothing to decide on. One chapter of the Orc King? That's not even food for thought.
Even those who are harsher in their wording are not giving up or walking away without trying. Not yet, anyway, I believe. On the contrary, all these debates are proof we ARE trying. I very much doubt that, even if doom comes and the RSE ends the setting as we know it now, most of (if not all) of us will still give it a try. I, for one, will certainly try it with a borrowed PHB first. If the changes appeal to me, I'll spend on new books, if the setting becomes unforgivably unacceptable, then, and only then, I'll move away. I'm certain I speak for most of us around here.
Until then, let's debate. Your voice is expected, George!
My best regards. |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 06:44:43
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
All I am saying is that they are not serving my needs for the setting, which will cause me to not support the setting beyond the 1385 DR timeline. I don't think that is particularly unreasonable.
It’s 100% unreasonable, given the fact that the 4E FRCS isn’t even out yet.
How any true Realms fan can make such a declaration without real, tangible “I’ve read it and I don’t like it” proof is beyond me.
:::::
I’m a gamer first, Realms fan second. To me the idea of (possibly) glimpsing the Realms 100 years in the future, then sitting back and let my mind race with all kinds of ideas about how things could have changed to become the ‘way they will be’ is just too good an opportunity to pass up.
Am I happy about what’s looking like a years-long, slow burning RSE being the cause of much strife? No. I’m not a fan of true RSEs.
But I am a fan of the Realms. If Eric Boyd and Ed Greenwood are in the loop and have already shown by their words that they’re grounding this RSE in prior/well established (albeit obscure) lore, and Ed’s oft-stated declaration that the Realms are a living, breathing world that must change is at least a partial basis for this change, then I see no good reason to stop being a fan, because the transition is in good hands.
I’ll take it and enjoy letting my mind race at the possibilities, as I’ve been doing since the Grey Box was released. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 13 Sep 2007 06:46:23 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 07:00:19
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Nobody is leaving the Realms, we just aren't 'moving'.
My campaign is set in 1390, and it is just fine, and my players are enjoying it. What purpose would buying 4e FR serve? Since I don't intend to move MY timeline, the lore becomes completely uneccessary. I will buy the 4e rules, and I'm actually looking forward to them.
Its like this - suppose you have a best friend and he dies in a car accident. Would you go looking for someone who reminded you of him? No, that would just be 'creepy'. You would make a new friend, maybe even a whole slew of new friends. There is no reason to stick with something that reminds you of your friend just because he looks similar.
So, the 4e FRCS has ONE SHOT to impress me, or I'm going off to find new 'friends'. I'll miss the old one, but hey, life goes on.
In all honesty, I figure George is right, the 3e lore has been excellent, and with the GHotR I'll have everything I need for years to come. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 07:19:54
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well, as my last post on this particular thread, I'll make a few points.
Firstly, in relation to buying FR products and the proposed 4E FR products, I was not telling anyone to buy stuff "they didn't like". Mind you, I can't understand people saying they are not going to like something before they've seen it. I'm hoping that people realise however that supporting the FR product line is important for the future of the line. That's a fairly straightforward proposition one would think.
Secondly, I've been around maling lists and message boards and the Realms for a long, long time. The fan agitation that accompanies changes to the Realms has always been present. Sometimes it's been 'storm in a teacup' stuff (like the "Threat From the Sea" bogeyman on the old Realms-L), other times it's had more substance (like the ToT, which did change games and campaigns). What has always struck me about this fan agitation is that it has on the whole been predominately negative. Every single time. And usually accompanied by the standard threats to stop buying FR products and greater or lesser degrees of vitriol (or barely veiled vitriol) towards the writers and designers employed by TSR/WotC.
Throughout all that, the Realms has grown and prospered. Every edition of the game has enhanced the Realms in terms of both gaming stuff and realmslore. Especially the latter, for the game mechanics may change but the realmslore usually remains fairly unchanged (and yes, I know I'm generalizing here). IMHO, GHotR caps off a pretty good bunch of 3E products where the realmslore has been top notch. Easily equal to all other editions.
Speaking personally, I don't regret any of the edition changes and the changes wrought on the Realms by such edition changes over the years. Each has given me a greater understanding of aspects of the Realms. Every single one. I do not expect 4E to be any different.
So when people say "why should I buy products I don't want to use?" or "I strongly doubt that this new Realms will be the one I fell in love with" or "the old guard fans aren't wanted anymore", when there is absolutely nothing but huge assumptions and suppositions driving those feelings, I get somewhat bewildered.
We are all here because we love the Realms. As with any relationship, you have to work on it to make it succeed. You don't just give up or walk away without trying, and you don't base your decisions on anything other than fact or reality (well, you shouldn't!). Wait for the 4E campaign setting, wait to see what Dragon online has for you, wait to read "Blackstaff Tower" and then make an informed decision that the Realms 'sux' and then walk away.
Until then, when someone posts something positive, perhaps give them the respect of their beliefs and convictions, and take on board a little of what they have to say and draw some courage or solace from it. I for one hate drowning in a sea of negativity.
-- George Krashos
George, I respect you and your work greatly, and I hope that in my posts I have not come across as being intentionally disrespectful of anyone else that is a Realms fan. When I said that I have no problem with anyone that truly enjoys the new direction of the Realms picking up the new books I mean it. If it becomes special to them in the same way the Realms have been special to me for years, I'm happy for them.
That having been said, its not the Realms that I have been playing in and reading about for 20 years. I'm not saying that WOTC doesn't have the right to do what they will with the setting, nor am I saying that they need to serve my needs moreso than other fans. All I am saying is that they are not serving my needs for the setting, which will cause me to not support the setting beyond the 1385 DR timeline. I don't think that is particularly unreasonable.
Honestly, I know its hard to figure out tone and inflection from internet posts, but honestly, most of my mixed bag of stronger emotions are pretty well spent on this. It is what it is, and what it is isn't for me, and there isn't anything I can really do about it. As I have said, I'll still pick up Realms products from before the 1385 timeline, especially books like the Knights of Myth Drannor books, if they are produced.
I understand that you want to see the Realms continue, and for it to continue it has to show that it has some support. However, its not blackmail or a boycott to say that I don't want to send the message that I'll buy anything FR. If I buy the 4th edition FRCS, and what looks like the future portrayed in The Orc King is the norm from here on out, then the only message that I can send by buying it is "this is what I want." They won't look at an e-mail from me saying "I bought this, but this is what I really wanted," nor will they see it if I put a message on my dollar bills saying, "I'm buying this because I want you to go back to 1385 and change things." The single most simple market research a company can is basic sales, and if the 4th edition FRCS sells well, the tacit implication is that what is in the book is generally wanted by the fans.
I can only see this as telling WOTC that its okay to keep a few proper names but "clean" house and start over rather than giving us the details that a lot of us here seem to want. We don't know if we are a large percentage of the fandom, but we do know what we expect of the Realms, and we really should be true to what we want. Worse yet, WOTC could see success of the 4th edition FRCS as approval to jump the timeline ahead decades at a time whenever they want a "fresh start." It would be less troubling if they hadn't already proven that they might consider something like this with the DragonLance setting.
As RF said, I'll always be a Realms fan, but I may not be a fan of the future Realms products. I still love the work of every person in your post George, and I have great respect for them. And I have the utmost respect for anyone that wants to check this out, and I'll harbor no hard feelings for anyone for whom this new vision "works." I'm not threatening nor ranting, but I do feel its important at this juncture to make how I feel and what I'm doing going into the future perfectly clear.
Thanks for taking the time to respond to all of us, and thank you for taking the time to care about the Realms and put so much effort into it over the years. It has definitely helped to make it a special place for me.
Well' there is not much for me to ad beyond this. I dont think I have much more useful to say on this subject. |
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 08:38:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauglor
The base of all these debates is that "none of us want to move away" from the future FR, Orc King and Points of Light included. However, if by the historical background of the publisher we predict doom to the setting, it's just natural we'll try to repair the ship early on and not give it even a tiny chance of sinking.
Rich Baker said that the 'points of light thing' wouldn't necessarily apply to the campaign settings like the Realms and Eberron.
I wouldn't use 'Orc King' as a guide either. The North has always been a 'points of light' area before there even was such a thing.
The Swordsage
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 12:33:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
It’s 100% unreasonable, given the fact that the 4E FRCS isn’t even out yet.
How any true Realms fan can make such a declaration without real, tangible “I’ve read it and I don’t like it” proof is beyond me.
Its not impossible for the 4th edition FRCS to still be more Realmsian than I fear it is, but if the 100 year jump is an accurate "preview," honestly that is enough to know, for me, that the version of the Realms is a non-starter. A 100 year jump alone makes this a "disconnect" from previous Realms conventions (1 year per two real world years, for example).
As to weather or not I'm a true Realms fan, I've been around since 1987, and the only times I've not run campaigns in the Realms have been the years when I didn't game at all. I've read novels, played video games, and even passed on knowledge and appreciation for the setting to my kids, and to other gamers that I have taught to play the game, or that were never exposed to the Realms before.
I've shared plenty of my ideas for running the Realms right here at the keep, and if those ideas haven't been worth the electrons they are transmitted upon, then at least I spent a great deal of time and invested a lot of passion in the things that I've written for Candlekeep. I didn't get paid for one bit of that, nor all of the times I've defended the Realms on other forums, and tried to advocate for it as a setting over the years.
But if I'm not enough of a fan for you, I don't know what I could do to prove it, other than just buying everything with a FR logo on it without any thought about if it actually fits my view of the Realms. If that's the only thing that counts, no, guess I'm not a good fan. You know, when I responded to George, I wasn't really mad at all. I was sad because of the direction the setting was going. But I have taken a lot of the knee jerk reaction out of what I was saying, and trying to step back and really analyze things.
Now, however, I am mad. If we start doing this, "I'm a true fan because I'm playing 4th edition," division now, before its even out, I may have to rethink some of my free time even sooner. Life's too short to be an elitist in a hobby like ours. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 12:53:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Swordsage
quote:
Originally posted by Thauglor
The base of all these debates is that "none of us want to move away" from the future FR, Orc King and Points of Light included. However, if by the historical background of the publisher we predict doom to the setting, it's just natural we'll try to repair the ship early on and not give it even a tiny chance of sinking.
Rich Baker said that the 'points of light thing' wouldn't necessarily apply to the campaign settings like the Realms and Eberron.
I wouldn't use 'Orc King' as a guide either. The North has always been a 'points of light' area before there even was such a thing.
The Swordsage
I agree fully with you and with George, Swordsage. Start to judge the new FRCS based only in a core article (that Rich said that will not be the norm in the campaign settings) is, to begin, ilogical. Core articles are, basically, core articles, IMO. In the PHB is said that the bards pray to Olimdamara, and I don't remember to see anyone worried because "how they want to put Olimdamara in the Realms?". I'm mantaining the core stuff in his right place: in the core. Now, if I see a Realms article suporting the Points of Light stuff (and without being in Rashemen, Thay, Unther, and other places that are already in this situation), it's another matter...
Oh, but we have a core book that suport this: the new novel of RAS!!! We have read a single chapter of the book, and understand exactly what is happening... 
Serious, when I need of a good Realmslore information, I prefer to trust in the opinion of George. Or Ed. Because, if I'm here to start to think that RAS is the best and more acurate source of realmslore, I will have to alter the realms a lot(this, only based in what is showed in the Icewind Dale Trilogy): Drizzt and Entreri are the best swordsmen of the Realms (goodbye to Texter, Azoun IV, and the others)... Khelben, Alustriel and Malchor Harpell are the kind of people that stay "looking for the bold heroes that will save the world, eager to take the road of adventure again, eager to help, but understanding that their days of adventure are gone past"... (and with this, ignore all that I know of these iconic heroes, including the stuff of Blackstaff novel).
Serious. I prefer to don't mix core stuff with realmslore. If Rich Baker already sayed that, I trust him. If I already have read this in the Gen Con 2007 scroll:
"Also mentioned were two further unnamed FR 4E products highlighting races and classes in the Realms and a major 4E adventure respectively."
...I believe that this is because the races and classes of the Realms are diferent of the core, and are, with this, diferent of what is being presented in the core articles.
It's with this in mind that I prefer to continue a good optimist dwarf. I trust in Ed's words, I trust in George comitment with the realms, and I trust that the realms are diferent from the core.
When I have the 4th ed Campaign Setting in hands, I will see if I'm right in my feelings. Until then, I will continue to believe that Ed and the others are doing the best that they can for us. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 12:59:27
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And I want to say that I'm the ones that don't like of a 100 year jump, too! I'm not a silly drunken dwarf (well, most of times!
I just want to see the book first, and see what Ed and the others are preparing, before take any decision. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Thauglor
Acolyte
Brazil
36 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 15:23:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Swordsage
quote:
Originally posted by Thauglor
The base of all these debates is that "none of us want to move away" from the future FR, Orc King and Points of Light included. However, if by the historical background of the publisher we predict doom to the setting, it's just natural we'll try to repair the ship early on and not give it even a tiny chance of sinking.
Rich Baker said that the 'points of light thing' wouldn't necessarily apply to the campaign settings like the Realms and Eberron.
I wouldn't use 'Orc King' as a guide either. The North has always been a 'points of light' area before there even was such a thing.
The Swordsage
This is good news. As I said before, I'm not against the 'points of light' being applied to FR. My concern is only about how the concept is applied, so that there's no risk of the Realms becoming a completely different setting.
I wish they released more of the 4e rules sooner. Beginning of 2008 is too far. And I'm really eager to see what they came up with to substitute Vancian magic. I've never been very fond of that, to the point of creating my own system of magic. But since I've been only GMing and playing RPGA adventures as of late, my system was retired. |
Edited by - Thauglor on 13 Sep 2007 15:40:13 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 16:33:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Cleric: I'm using guilt trip, and I rolled a natural 20!
Brother Knight, this is priceless!
Truly! You made my day, Knight!  |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 20:58:59
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Yeah, that was pretty good.
Food for thought - someone over at the WotC boards brought up the fact that Candlekeep might be gone a hundred years from now. 
So.... should we start throwing around new names now.... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 21:00:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yeah, that was pretty good.
Food for thought - someone over at the WotC boards brought up the fact that Candlekeep might be gone a hundred years from now.
So.... should we start throwing around new names now....
Well met
Vicious lies and rumours, I tell ye!  |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 22:22:01
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quote:
Now, however, I am mad. If we start doing this, "I'm a true fan because I'm playing 4th edition," division now, before its even out, I may have to rethink some of my free time even sooner. Life's too short to be an elitist in a hobby like ours.
Don't be mad brother knight, and don't rethink your free time just yet. Just do like me, and stick to your 3.5 guns. Steadfastness is the greatest asset of a knight. I won't repeat it again (ok I will) but I'm buying no 4E core books. I've always said I'll support the Realms by buying everything with a FR logo on it whatever the edition will be. Don't you worry brother knight: if they DO make a mockery of these Realms, I will retaliate! (i.e. stop buying FR as well!)
So there, I've drawn my sword (i.e. won't buy 4E). If the Brigands of the Coast don't get the message and let me pass, I will start swinging that sword (i.e. won't buy FR either). I'll be content to live in the past and reread the 2nd and 3.X stuff produced so far.
Cheers! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 22:22:18
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This just in -
Tom Costa just told me on the WotC boards that as far as HE knows, the timeline will only be moved forward 10 years.
Hurray!!!
He also said "he could be wrong..."
However, I now see a light at the end of the tunnel. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2007 : 22:36:16
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You realize we are very fortunate in our hobby in the fact that if we don't like something we can comment to the very people creating the books and they can give us their reasons. We might not like those reasons, but we will get data that we can spin around.
Even with 4ed coming, we have access to hidden secrets right here. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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