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Thauglor
Acolyte
Brazil
36 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 23:08:17
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My congratulations to you too, Kiaransalyn on the newborn baby.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
By using a tried and true technique of 'Sherlockery', we can put everything through a sifter and just pull out the common points so we can get something akin to whats really going on. Even the slightest 'mis-phrasage' could be a Freudian slip, so everything is pertinent.
We mustn't forget that "mis-phrasage is also a form of marketing nowadays.quote:
The poor kingdom was ill-fated right from the beginning, when they choose an in-pronouncable name for the place (Luruar).
In-pronouceable? I find it so easy to pronounce it. Really. Then again, perhaps the fact that I come from elven lands might have something to do with it.quote:
My best guess is either Shade attacks and destroys Silvery Moon, or the Spellplague wreaks untold havoc.
Perhaps the Shades have something to do with the Spellplague. Rules-wise, this is one of the changes that worry me most, I being a natural born wizard, in and out of character. I'm not against changes (rules changes for that matter and please don't spoil the setting) but I've always felt magic had too little room to expand in the hands of the average player, everyone so tied up to the vancian mode. Apart from not being "allowed" to wear armour, having a ridiculously low amount of HPs and usually being the first to die (that one stray arrow...), it takes a really skilled player to role-play the mind of a Wizard. Will 4th Ed. create more opportunities for wizards? Or will it impose so many more difficulties, players won't even choose to be wizards?quote:
In order to move forward the 'Points-of-Light' theme, the major centers of civilization will ALL have to take a beating. I don't think Waterdeep will just 'fall-in' to the earth, but I do think that SOMETHING major will occur to make the place more 'adventure-worthy' to the combat-oriented crowd.
Couldn't agree more. It would just make sense to make things more challenging for the average player (the 25-point player, at least) and present more opportunities for a DM to create over the setting. |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1073 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 23:17:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
You must admit that it is a little strange that the adventure ended as it did Wooly Rupert.
It’s strange that a major character in the realms (my opinion) suddenly “dies” and without a proper explanation, and the module leaves it up to the player what should happen 
I was under the impression that it has already been revealed that Halaster died as he tried (and failed) to prevent the Spellplague?
Yes I can’t ague with that but it seams to simple. I just feel that there are more to it, that’s whey I think, that they intentionally left something out to protect 4 - edition stuff. |
Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master
Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.
Links related to Forgotten Realms
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Adventuring / Mercenary Companies / Orders / The chosen from official sources
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11047
Priests in Forgotten Realms.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9609&whichpage=1 |
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Thauglor
Acolyte
Brazil
36 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2007 : 23:22:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
It is possible that Moon and Sun Elves will become "Eladrins" & that Wood and Wild Elves would become "Elves", with Drow being a different type all together.
I'll take this idea with a ton of salt. Such changes would shake the core history in many settings. Corellon would suddenly find himself thrown by Ao back and forth in time to a different line of reality. In FR this would be too much for Corellon's stomach so it is certainly too much for mine either. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 00:00:10
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The most important thing of D&D 4E as far as FR is concerned is:
DRIZZT'S 4E STATS
:P |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 07:15:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
From what I can see, I think the Silver Marches is a goner. It is the anti-thesis to the 'points of light' they are going for. The poor kingdom was ill-fated right from the beginning, when they choose an in-pronouncable name for the place (Luruar). From what little has been released about The Orc King, we know Drizzt and Mithral Hall survive into 4e, but we don't know about the surrounding area. Since the book appears to be about Obould (from the title), obviously he will play a major part in what will become of the North in the future, be it ten years or a hundred.
I never saw the problem with the term Luruar in the first place, and the decision to remove a perfectly good name and replace it with Silver Marshes, meant to signify a border more than a country or state wasnt exactly an improvement. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 07:25:44
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It doesn't really matter what its called, its just not 1e's Savage Frontier with all those goody-goody Realms filling it up. 1e had wide open spaces for adventure, but since then designers and authors have been filling in all of the 'wild' areas with stuff. I'm not blaming them - we fans are just as guilty with our constant cries for more lore. Now the Realms have become so 'busy' that its hard for an author to write about anything without messing up something else that was already developed.
I think this uber-RSE is supposed to bring us back to a more 'primitive' time. The PCs will become the heroes from now on, not novel characters. There won't be any "super heroes" to save the day anymore - it's all up to us (the PCs) now. Its not really such a bad idea, if they can pull it off and still have it look like the Realms we all know and love.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauglor
I'll take this idea with a ton of salt. Such changes would shake the core history in many settings. Corellon would suddenly find himself thrown by Ao back and forth in time to a different line of reality. In FR this would be too much for Corellon's stomach so it is certainly too much for mine either.
Did you notice in that 'sneak peak', they specifically called Corellon the Fey god? I guess he's not even an Elf anymore.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Sep 2007 07:33:15 |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 20:22:30
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I agree with Markustay, if the designers can pull it off, bringing a bit more Savageness into the Realms would do the setting more good than harm. Imagine all the 'new' ruins to explore 
Though I'm still skeptic and in a 'wait and see mode'. My PbeM is set in the 2nd half of 1371, there is quite some time to cover before I get to more 'current' realms time (in 6 years of gaming, the timeline has advanced from Eleint to Marpenoth of the same year) |
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Thauglor
Acolyte
Brazil
36 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 20:36:15
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| I'm still wary and skeptical of what is to come, but taking things from my campaign point of view, I have to agree with Markustay and Mumadar. "Shadows in Faerun" took its first steps in January 2006, incorporating darker tendencies to the setting. It sounds logical, if not perfect, that the realms are now falling into a darker age. It will certainly provide a lot of stuff for me to work with. |
Thauglor
King of the Forest Country and RPGA Master GM
"And in this land I'll proudly stand
Until my dying day, sir;
For whate'er king o'er all command,
I'll still be a Cormyte brave, sir."
The Cormyte's Boast
Master Bard Chantalas |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 21:00:09
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| A little more darkness is something I think we all can appreciate for the Realms, hell, back when I first joined the forums I was (and still am, for that matter) all for bad guys winning. Would I want a Spellplague (whatever that may be) to happen? Nope, although maybe it is something the Red Wizards of Thay whipped up, sort of like a disease that afflicts users of their magic items...this could be one of the reasons why so many enclaves sprouted all over Faerûn... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2007 : 22:55:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Would I want a Spellplague (whatever that may be) to happen? Nope, although maybe it is something the Red Wizards of Thay whipped up, sort of like a disease that afflicts users of their magic items...this could be one of the reasons why so many enclaves sprouted all over Faerûn...
This is a very interesting thought, and it seems quite likely that the Red Wizards try to deal a blow against their enemies in such a way. Considering, that all these enclaves are watched by the chosen (I think it was Elminster in “Elminster’s Daughter” who revealed this information about the manipulation the chosen had done with portals and other things in these enclaves) it is quite possible that something will go awfully wrong with the Wizard’s original plan, disease and manipulation interfering with each other and becoming the Spellplague wreaking havoc in the Realms. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 07 Sep 2007 22:56:28 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2007 : 10:36:34
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| Well, I am a little in the middle ground here; I would prefer the Realms to get grayer more than "good guys" and "bad guys" winning. More cynical power plays and less focus on good or evil. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2007 : 14:33:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Well, I am a little in the middle ground here; I would prefer the Realms to get grayer more than "good guys" and "bad guys" winning. More cynical power plays and less focus on good or evil.
The inherent problem with grey is the alignment system... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Thauglor
Acolyte
Brazil
36 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2007 : 17:24:30
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I would love to see the Realms getting socially "greyer". The idea of clear, limiting boundaries a character should not (or cannot) cross has never been one of my favourites. The rule of "one step away" when dealing with deities alignments opens up a few more possibilities for role-play, but the limit still exists. Perhaps, given the depth of such theme, it should be discussed in another thread (if not done so already), but I'll lay here my few cents of wisdom.
Empirically speaking, although alignments are quite well explained in the core books, there are a couple points that hinder a good understanding of the rules. First, but a lot less important, comes age. Generally speaking of course, the younger the player, the less concerned with alignment and avoiding harsher actions she will be. "Coming of age" and "adulthood" usually sets the player's mind in line with the rest of society, usually bringing more tolerance and understanding into alignment issues.
Then, comes on stage the cultural aspects of each real world society. I do aknowledge the globalization of information has brought us closer to one another. But it has also shown the most basic differences each of our societies is founded on. Those differences ultimately play an important part in our understanding of social possibilities, and thus in interpreting alignments.
Finally, a personal aspect of the human being. If a player lacks the aptitude to comprehend social skills, how can a GM asks her to follow an alignment she doesn't truly understand? I'm certain every GM here has been there already.
All of the above considered, I'd say grey is good. Better than black and white. Grey gives players more room to manouver in a setting. It also presents GMs with both more material to create in the setting, and official tolerance with which to evaluate players actions. Hearsay states that aligments won't change much in 4Ed. Will the rules really be more maleable?
Whatever the answer is to that last question, if the "points of light" system is applied to FR, I sense the setting will not benefit much from any extra alignment maleability. Greyer relationships imply developed societies. The more feudal society becomes the more it will tend to black-and-white social relations. Apart from a few city-states that may remain after the spellplague or whatever else takes place, I see the future FR mainly as a harsh land with spots of feudal civilization. Perfect for hack'n'slash roleplaying. Not so for PCs with high social skills. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2007 : 17:36:00
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It seems we have gotten some of our answers, and it is worse then even I predicted.
It sounds like a combination of WoD and Eberron (The Great War?!).
I have a thread leading to the spoiler (RAS's preview) -
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9873 |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Sep 2007 17:36:53 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2007 : 01:06:53
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Even though we have barely had our first glimpses of the Realms in 4E, it seems that some of my worst fears were not completely unfounded. I have long suspected that all this flood of RSEs and the deaths of prominent Archmages have been a prelude to FR under the 4th Edition rules.
As I also suspected, whatever the Spellplague turns out to be will be revealed in Anauroch as Sharrans try some 'Netherese-style' epic spell to merge the Weave into the Shadow Weave. The end result will shatter the Weave as we know it, while Mystra sacrifices herself to preserve magic in one form or another. Shade will probably be destroyed, too, but the Empire of Netheril will rise from the ashes. Or maybe the ritual (manipulated by the Shade) will actually tap into the past, unleashing ancient and terrible powers as it causes the 'rebirth' of Netheril (it could very well be similar to the one used in 'Blackstaff') and Shade becomes its capital?
As to what I have gleaned from The Orc King so far:
Despite what we've been told (recently by Rich Baker) about the 'Points of Light'-concept involving 'Core Setting only', there are some very troubling passages in the book. For example, Drizzt tells his elf captive how he has ventured outside the Silver Marches, walking the 'once safe trails' that have now reverted to wilderness. He also claims to have walked "a dozen-dozen communities that you will never know. They are gone now, lost to the Spellplague or worse!" (Drizzt speaks of Luskan being wiped out and Thay, Sembia and Mulhorand suffering greatly or being also gone).
I also found the following sentences to be very revealing in nature: “Gone, and gone with them the hopes of a tamed and gentle world. Where is the refuge from the tumult of a world gone mad? Where are the candles to chase away the darkness?”. Truly, the Realms have never faced darker times, as we read about "a hundred years of chaos, amidst the coming of darkness" and how "few have escaped the swirl of destruction".
Not all hope is gone or the whole world lost to the ravages and madness of the Spellplague, however. The excerpt also mentions some new settlements, such as 'Five Tusks' and 'Ungoor's Gate', while other places (Moonwood) have been renamed. And, some of the familiar places (Silver Marches and Nesmé, namely) have survived the Spellplague, too. As Drizzt notes himself how few places in all of Faerûn could claim to be more civilized during those hundred years, but the region known as the Silver Marches. Quote: “They are here, those lights of hope. In the Silver Marches. Or they are nowhere."
Hmmm... now where did I read about something that resembled this very much? A world plunged into darkness, consisting of small settlements that stand alone in savage wilderness that is filled with unexplored ruins, outlaws and monsters... weird... I am experiencing a déja vu...  
There are some other startling passages in the book, too, speaking of more major changes in the FR we know and love. First of all, there will be shake-ups in the pantheons. Gruumsh's worship has apparently been driven 'underground', but it gets even better - some of the human and elven gods will be forgotten or dead, too. This is pretty evident as Drizzt notes that: "Where are the benevolent gods? I witnessed the hope of the goodly drow, the rise of the followers of Eilistraee. But where are they now? Gone...” There is also a reference to "the greatest cathedral in the world burning and collapsing."
Secondly, I also have a strong suspicion that orcs will be one of the Core PC Races, since this novel underlines the 'orcs are people, too'-theme very strongly. Or, perhaps all this is meant to give half-orcs more depth and background beyond the usual 'my mother was raped by an orc'. The fact that there are still 'monstrous' orcs revering Gruumsh will justify their use as 'minions' in encounters.
However, the whole CCC-thing was a pretty immature and clumsy Real World analogy, which I truly wish we will not *EVER* see again in another published FR book. What's next? Burning crosses and river Delimbiyr renamed Mississippi? 
Summa summarum: to me it's pretty clear that The Orc King prepares us to accept the fact that FR Timeline will leap a hundred years forward, and the campaigns will launch out of Silver Marches, which seems to be (on basis of this book) the only 'civilized' region in the whole 'Points of Light' Faerûn. If not, why 'lock up' the future in canon Realmslore? Or why introduce a world-wide magical catastrophe that will (apparently) last for a hundred years until it has passed? I doubt you even *could* play a warlock or a wizard during the Spellplague, which makes it pretty much next to impossible to run a campaign after the year 1385.
I think the whole idea behind all this is to bring FR neatly into the fold of their 4E marketing strategy: you can start from a clean plate without buying a whole bunch of (necessary) previous edition books. After all, WoTC seems to cater to new (MMORPG-playing) customers rather than their old and loyal customer base (which might even be the main reason to bring in orcs as a PC race?) As for me, if all this comes to pass, I think I'll keep on playing 3.X edition and never again buy a FR or D&D accessory again... 
P.S. Did you read about how Eladrin (High Elves) might become a new Core Race, too? That'd mean that Elves (as a race) take the role of Wild and Wood Elven sub-races and we'd have to tweak the history of the Realms to fit this concept ("No, you have your history wrong... Myth Drannor was an Eladrin city in this new edition. Elves have *never* built cities...") |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2007 : 03:12:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
P.S. Did you read about how Eladrin (High Elves) might become a new Core Race, too? That'd mean that Elves (as a race) take the role of Wild and Wood Elven sub-races and we'd have to tweak the history of the Realms to fit this concept ("No, you have your history wrong... Myth Drannor was an Eladrin city in this new edition. Elves have *never* built cities...")
There have always been points of difference between the core and the Realms. Even in 1E where dragons in the Realms were nastier beasties than the ones in the 1E MM. No-one knows what is happening and all is speculation - clearly there will be changes, but they might not be exactly the same changes made to the core. Sweeping comments like "only the Silver Marches" will exist etc. are likely just plain wrong. Rich Baker at the FR seminar at GEN-CON said that Waterdeep would still be around in 4E as would Elminster. They might be different from the way they are now, much of the Realms might be, but as long as the changes are explained and detailed I see no problems with them at all. A timeline jump - whether big or small - will provide ample 'space' to fit in the 4E changes continuity-wise and lore-wise. Heck, I'm looking forward to it in a strange way, especially if it is a big timeline jump. It will be interesting to think about and piece together what happened to Azoun V, Mirt and Durnan, Tsaara Chaadren, Sememmon, Fzoul, Manshoon and a host of others. Not to mention places and organisations. Let's get happy and enjoy the ride - nothing good can come of all this doom and gloom.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2007 : 07:26:31
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Well, doom and gloom can be great for initiative if used right. Most of the work I have done on the Realms have been after negative ramblings and general doom and gloom about the Realms future. If I don't like it, what do I want instead?
As for the hints given in the Drizzt text; I don't know if I should laugh or cry. |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2007 : 07:32:07
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
A timeline jump - whether big or small - will provide ample 'space' to fit in the 4E changes continuity-wise and lore-wise. Heck, I'm looking forward to it in a strange way, especially if it is a big timeline jump. It will be interesting to think about and piece together what happened to Azoun V, Mirt and Durnan, Tsaara Chaadren, Sememmon, Fzoul, Manshoon and a host of others. Not to mention places and organisations. Let's get happy and enjoy the ride - nothing good can come of all this doom and gloom.
-- George Krashos
That's the man I've come to respect. HUZZAH for George. Huzzah! |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2007 : 08:36:52
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
[quote]
There have always been points of difference between the core and the Realms. Even in 1E where dragons in the Realms were nastier beasties than the ones in the 1E MM. No-one knows what is happening and all is speculation - clearly there will be changes, but they might not be exactly the same changes made to the core. Sweeping comments like "only the Silver Marches" will exist etc. are likely just plain wrong. Rich Baker at the FR seminar at GEN-CON said that Waterdeep would still be around in 4E as would Elminster. They might be different from the way they are now, much of the Realms might be, but as long as the changes are explained and detailed I see no problems with them at all. A timeline jump - whether big or small - will provide ample 'space' to fit in the 4E changes continuity-wise and lore-wise. Heck, I'm looking forward to it in a strange way, especially if it is a big timeline jump. It will be interesting to think about and piece together what happened to Azoun V, Mirt and Durnan, Tsaara Chaadren, Sememmon, Fzoul, Manshoon and a host of others. Not to mention places and organisations. Let's get happy and enjoy the ride - nothing good can come of all this doom and gloom.
-- George Krashos
Ever the Oslander optimist, eh, George?   
I know that all this is speculation at this point, but my 'gut feeling' is that I won't like the 'Realms of Tomorrow'. It doesn't mean that others won't like it, or find the whole 'Points of Light' -concept more to their tastes. Actually, most of WoTC's new 'target audience' will probably find these changes very welcome and needed, as they are able to 'jump in' without pouring through dozens of previous edition FR tomes.
I don't believe that all civilization has vanished, either, but even the short excerpt from The Orc King seems to indicate that *most* of the kingdoms we know and love have been shattered and lost. I don't think I'll stand up and applause because Waterdeep still exists (in one form or another). Instead, I feel angry because (assuming the timeline will jump a hundred years forward) *ALL* my previous edition WD/Savage Frontier lore will be more or less useless. The same goes for the rest of the Realms, as I have to buy new FR Books to run a *detailed* 'canon' campaign (as in 'fluffy details beyond the general flavour or the ten pages devoted to these regions in 4E FRCS') in Sembia or the Dales, for example. Yes, I can still keep running 3.X edition campaigns, but some players I play with won't be happy about that (they'd rather prefer campaigns faithful to canon Realmslore).
Perhaps RAS was taking creative liberties as Drizzt referred to Silver Marches being 'the heart of Civilized Faerûn' (my words, not a quote). I just cannot help but strongly suspect that this will be 'the official launching point' for all FR 4E Campaigns. I just hope they don't forget to include some fluff about the 'Silverymoon Warlord Academy for Younger Gentlesirs or Otherwise Charismatic Male Individuals of All Races' (sarcasm intended ;) |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2007 : 14:08:52
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
A timeline jump - whether big or small - will provide ample 'space' to fit in the 4E changes continuity-wise and lore-wise. Heck, I'm looking forward to it in a strange way, especially if it is a big timeline jump. It will be interesting to think about and piece together what happened to Azoun V, Mirt and Durnan, Tsaara Chaadren, Sememmon, Fzoul, Manshoon and a host of others. Not to mention places and organisations. Let's get happy and enjoy the ride - nothing good can come of all this doom and gloom.
Something worth thinking about. When I read this, a thought occured to me - I recently did a full inventory of my FR stock, and I could not help but get the impression that during 1st and 2nd edition (1987 to 1999), the Realms was primarily a roleplaying setting - the number of RPG accessories was just about equal or greater than the number of novels. When I look at the products list from 3rd edition on, I have the impression that (far) more novels than gaming products are being published.
I do not know if this was a deliberate strategy of WotC, but if that is the case, then, yes, from WotC's POV, it makes sense to make the timeline jump forward one hundred years.
As each novel makes changes to the Realms (occasionally, "shattering changes"), the Realms become more and more defined, and the possibilities for adding to the setting become more and more limited. The way I see it, FR as a setting for novels relies on constant change, and often radical change, at that. As an RPG setting, it would rely more on some stability, providing a relatively static frame of reference for the players to set their games in. If the trend towards more novels is continued, then it makes sense to advance the timeline a full century - that allows the designers to come up with a number of defining events, and then have writers develop those into novels.
As someone who came to the Realms primarily as a gamer, that is not so attractive. So yes, if the Realms become a novel / comic / TV / Movie setting, it is kind of nice to see what happens to all these characters. I think that, as a gamer, I would very much prefer to determine for myself what happens to these characters... and have my player characters interact with them, and have those characters provide some the canvas for the player characters to do their own thing in.
So, probably, published FR is becoming more and more like some other shared universes (Marvel or DC comics spring to mind... or the early runs of Dragonlance - novels and the scenarioes in which the players can re-enact the novels). So, how long until the first alternate universe or parallel universe FR spring up (mirror universe - Elminster Evil and nice Szass Tam :-) )? |
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Thauglor
Acolyte
Brazil
36 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2007 : 16:49:31
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Although I still don't like this, it certainly makes sense business-wise. Fantasy RPG does not bring good revenue or profit. Fantasy novels fare better when money talks. Thus, they change the setting to give the writers more room and "material" (read Realms time) to work with. Gone for good are the times when gamers could really interact. Money won't allow it.
What little good may come from the facts above I'm quite uncertain but, perhaps, the 100-year leap may force a situation where it just won't be profitable enough (as little as it may be) to launch a 5e of the rules. Maybe, just maybe, we might at least see another decade or two of (new) canon material ahead of us without them toying with the core rules.
WotC's decision may also be the final dividing line between older, canon-lore-fans and the new generation of gamers. A question here: if you're a father with am amazing colletion of old material (1st, 2nd and 3rd editions) and your son or daughter asks you to buy the new setting, what would you do?
a) Give him/her the money and smile, for he is certainly making a good choice.
b) Give him/her the money and be gloomy for the rest of the day.
c) Lecture him/her on the fact that you already have enough material for any serious campaign he/she wants to play or run.
d) Shove him/her out of the house telling them to go get some sun.
e) Go buy him/her a new computer with lots of fresh-out-of-the-shelves games.
f) Something else a lot more sensible. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2007 : 18:03:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Perhaps RAS was taking creative liberties as Drizzt referred to Silver Marches being 'the heart of Civilized Faerûn' (my words, not a quote). I just cannot help but strongly suspect that this will be 'the official launching point' for all FR 4E Campaigns. I just hope they don't forget to include some fluff about the 'Silverymoon Warlord Academy for Younger Gentlesirs or Otherwise Charismatic Male Individuals of All Races' (sarcasm intended ;)
Salvatore always take creative liberties, in what concerns Drizzt and company. In the Icewind Dale Trilogy, Drizzt and Artemis Entreri are stated as "the best swordsmen of the Realms", and we know that old ones like Azoun IV (alive in that time), Texter , Durnan or Ren o'Blade could smash both of them without effort (not to mention the list of the best Realms swordsmen provided by Ed here in the Keep ). |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2007 : 20:33:06
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My opinion re-visited.
For the last month I've been embracing the 4th edition rules. I feel with each edition the rules have gotten better and easier to use. I thought 3.5 was fine, but I'm willing to accept it had a few quirks that could be fixed. The Vancian magic system never really grabbed me, but it was at the heart of D&D, so I accepted it (and made MANY bad attempts at modifying it over the years). The new system sounds interesting, and although I will miss the old one for nostalgic reasons, I look forward to seeing the new.
All that being said, I took a 'fence-sitting' position on 4e FR. I figured "wait and see... how bad can it be?" Since that spoiler came out, my brain has gone into 'Doomsday Overdrive'. Do I think the " 'new' Realms" (quoting Rich Baker there) will be interesting? Of course I do... I could go on for several pages listing every single setting I have bought into, and the ONLY one that left me flat was Kalimar - and I'm including just about every RPG since 1975, not just D20 settings. The new one sounds like WoD, Dawnforge, Blood Throne, etc... with a little bit of WoT mixed in (magic driving mages mad?). Thats not a bad thing, per se, but its not overly original either.
My biggest problem with it is the flavor of FR has changed from "making the world a better place" to "I hope we survive until tomorrow". Hopefully, the spoiler is only a 'what if' scenario, and the the new CS will only be the 10 or 15 years we originally thought. At least give us a chance to change what is to come - make that prologue become a warning of sorts.
So, after a good night's sleep last night, I've come to this conclusion: Will I buy new Realms material? Yes... I will buy the CS and see if I like it. Will I buy more? That depends on if they did a good job... I won't buy crap just because it sports the FR logo. But thats true of any product I purchase.
However, It will not be the Realms; it will be something new and different. I will probably continue my game in 1390 DR (I have always kept my game 15 years ahead to avoid involving my PCs in 'current events'). Unfortunetly, this now puts me smack-dab in the middle of the Spellplague. Oh well... that's a different game now.. and I will continue to treat the two, 3e Realms and 4e Abeir-Toril, as two seperate animals in my mind.
As far as I'm concerned, Reality diverged at some point, and there are now two worlds... and I can learn to love both. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2007 : 21:35:58
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
There have always been points of difference between the core and the Realms. Even in 1E where dragons in the Realms were nastier beasties than the ones in the 1E MM. No-one knows what is happening and all is speculation - clearly there will be changes, but they might not be exactly the same changes made to the core. Sweeping comments like "only the Silver Marches" will exist etc. are likely just plain wrong. Rich Baker at the FR seminar at GEN-CON said that Waterdeep would still be around in 4E as would Elminster. They might be different from the way they are now, much of the Realms might be, but as long as the changes are explained and detailed I see no problems with them at all. A timeline jump - whether big or small - will provide ample 'space' to fit in the 4E changes continuity-wise and lore-wise. Heck, I'm looking forward to it in a strange way, especially if it is a big timeline jump. It will be interesting to think about and piece together what happened to Azoun V, Mirt and Durnan, Tsaara Chaadren, Sememmon, Fzoul, Manshoon and a host of others. Not to mention places and organisations. Let's get happy and enjoy the ride - nothing good can come of all this doom and gloom.
-- George Krashos
This is what I keep reminding myself of when reading about 4e and FR. I had a very positive attitude towards 3e when it was announced (lots of doomsayers at that time too), but this was clearly more from a game-mechanics POV.
Change is due, if not overdue in the Realms when it comes to some of the characters (even outside the chosen et al) that just seem to stretch their lives forever and a day. I am looking forward to seeing some of these old generation NPCs move over and make room for a newer generation. If this can be done along the lines of moving Azoun IV and Vangy off the stage, or as with Khelben, or in maybe more subtle terms - heck, death by natural causes also happens in the Realms, Kelemvor does not only great the deceased adventurers - even better.
Do we need a big shake-up and a massive timeline shift... I don't know. This is where I feel still skeptic about what I've read - all 2nd hand - so far.
Though In all this doom and gloom that is penned down in this scroll, I can and do see points of light - maybe not as bright as George sees them, but that could localized effects of the southern hemisphere - but I do recognize the room for opportunities and do not want to think about a near boycott of FR products (I don't think WoTC can make it THAT bad), but I might limit my purchases going forward.
Wait and see for now I guess...
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2007 : 00:50:51
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Oh, and one other thing. Many old time fans of the Realms wax nostalgic about when the Ol' Grey Box was released and we were given a Realms with lots of vague detail and broad brushstrokes - a place where individual DMs had lots of elbow room to put in their own stuff and adapt campaigns to suit personal desires. 20 years of products and novels have done much in some fans' eyes to whittle away this broadbased setting utility.
Isn't the 4E Realms likely a return to the state of affairs of the Ol' Grey Box? New, undetailed areas; areas that have been changed; new people to find out more about; new organisations; new ... well, lots of stuff.
If it was good enough in 1987, why isn't it good enough in 2008? You've got the option of the keeping your game in the old, super-detailed Realms or moving across to a new, less-detailed Realms (relatively speaking). Bit of a "best of both worlds" situation, isn't it?
Now I know why I consider myself a 'cup half-full'-type person.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2007 : 00:56:53
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Now I know why I consider myself a 'cup half-full'-type person.
I would like, but I don't think someone in WoTC staff can do like Ed and Jeff Grubb did with the Grey Box. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 11 Sep 2007 00:57:24 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2007 : 02:09:37
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| Sure they could. George makes a very good point. Fast forward your campaign or go as slow as you want. You have a 100 years to play with. it is no different as when many folks around here decide which portions of realms lore to follow, or make up their own lore surrounding any issues they come across(i.e. ToT). |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2007 : 03:34:22
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| The negative of course being that it will split the fan base among those that move their campaigns forward 100 years and those that stay behind. It effectively killed Dragonlance as a campaign setting and I don’t wish the same fate on the Forgotten Realms. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2007 : 03:49:32
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But the truth of the matter is that Ed is still involved, Eric Boyd is still involved, Rich Baker is still involved, obviously Salvatore is still involved, and we've added new talent in Eytan, Paul Kemp, Lisa Smedman, and too many others to mention, not to mention the return of Steven Schend as an author. So not all of these folks may be writing the 4E FR, but most certainly several of them are involved. To me, that's a pretty good brain trust, emphasis on the trust. So not calling it the Realms strikes me as, well, odd. We've got a great core team who has been giving us some pretty amazing products (games and novels) in the last several years and I figure will continue to do so.
Plus, frankly, I've been chafing a bit for years that the Realms were wrapping up too many plot threads and having the good guys win too many battles, without opening enough new avenues for epic adventure. My players don't want to just fight gnoll raiders, they want to know their characters are heroes the world will remember. Those opportunities were drying up and those baddies that were left, like Fzoul, were seemingly too important to get whacked without totally messing with a canonical version of the Realms. So I say, let's bring on the points of light in the darkness. We can all make those points brighter. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Sep 2007 : 04:00:17
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The team sounds fantastic, and I yearn for the days of the 1e boxed set, but Brian does make an excellent point.
A 10-15 year jump everyone would have went for, a century will split the consumer and hurt the product. It's like my mother always told me -
"Take little bites, or you'll choke."  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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D&D 4e Discussion Scroll
