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Denoples
Acolyte
39 Posts |
 Posted - 28 May 2007 : 20:22:49
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Consider this scenario. There are two armies. Army A is 5 times larger than army B, who is retreating to unite with an allied army.
Army B stops in a narrow area, almost a canyon, where they can hold up army A. On both sides there is high ground that cannot be assaulted on which archers from army B are placed. Down in the passage the heavy infantry from army B is placed.
Now, army A will have several wizards. If they cast fireballs they will annihilate the infantry of army B since it consists mainly of lvl1 warrior npc's.
Army B also has wizards. But how do they counter this artillery threat??
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2007 : 21:50:41
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Well bows can exceed range of fireball though at at lower chance to hit. A Longbow has a range of 1,000 feet enough to kill the wizards, that normally have low AC anyway. You did say B archers have the high ground after all.
As for additional mundane defense, shields or even hides that prevent the fireball from being targeted clearly is a defense. The caster of the spell has to see target that fireball is to occur in. Metal shields of course would be better as fireball will burn leather.
What B wizards can do depends a little of what they know and their level, but you should understand that.
Spells that might be used to defend or couter include; Acid Arrow (To take out A Wizards- the spell range is the same. Oh I would put B Wizards up with archers that can use this spell), Antimagic Field, Darkness, Flame Arrow, Fog Cloud (pervents targeting). I am sure I can find more, but holding a single enterance and holding high ground with archers should permit a smaller force to hold off a larger force. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Odysseus
Seeker
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2007 : 22:24:05
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The offensive options, are if the casters are close enough to cast fireball then they are close enough to get shot at. And even 1st lvl archers , if there enough should be able to stop the casters.
The defensive counters, are things like obscuring misr, fog cloud. To stop the spell targeting. Mirror image creates more targets. Resist energy to protect from fire. Alot depends on how many troops you have per caster, and what level the casters are. |
“Anybody can become angry, that is easy; but to be angry with the right person, and to the right degree, and at the right time, and for the right purpose, and in the right way, that is not within everybody’s power, that is not easy.” —Aristotle |
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Denoples
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2007 : 22:42:26
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If fire balls can't be stopped then it is impossible to have pre-advanced guns style warfare. If the formation of the unit holding the pass is broken, and it will be broken if a fireball spells are fired at them, then they will loose the battle.
I was wondering about an alternative for counterspells/dispel magic.
The only thing I considered was having some kind of runes prepared in front of army B. Runes that trigger dispel fireball spells when a fireball is launched close enough.
There are several symbol spells in the Player Handbook. But the status of runic magic in D&D is not clear to me.
Using shields to counter fire ball spells, is there anything in the rules about that? |
Edited by - Denoples on 28 May 2007 22:48:25 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2007 : 22:57:52
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Well there is dispell that wizards can use, though if long range casting a DM could rule the Counterspell does not work well (set the DC higher). IAE caster and counter speller needs to see each other. The defending (B) Army clearly would seek to prevent the casting of (A) Wizards, the arrows should be flying before spell casting can occur. Basic tatic, take out leaders and spell casters. The Wizards are softer targets then Clerics, but both should be taken out).
Perparing contingent runes clearly a posibility, not sure how long it would take to cast though. In part it does depend on how long B has to fortify against A. Hours, a Day, a week?
Using cover is clearly in the rules, Tower shields provide cover. A makeshift wall of sheilds will provide cover, though DM might require a craft or profession check to build it. Fog clearly provides cover as does other obsuring spells. If A can not target a spell they can not cast it at target.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 28 May 2007 23:22:08 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2007 : 23:19:31
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My post appears to have disappered, I will try to recreate it.
Holding in place is a problem. It depends on how long one has the time to set up defeneses. The arrows outreach the Wizards. If they (the archers) have enough arrows they will hit a Wizard at least once in 20 shots. They get a shot perhaps 15 times before a fireball can be cast.
(OK not replicating lost post here)
Defenese of holding in place is taking out foes before they can harm you. If Army B has enough arrows the Wizards will never get close enough to cast an effective fireball. If archer outnumber the Wizards and have the arrows and Wizard support of course can aid that.
Preparing runes takes time, though indeed such could be perpared.
Use of shields or spells to provide cover is clearly in the rules. Tower shields of course a best example of using shields for cover, however other shields clearly can be used to make a wall.
Edit: Cleaned up some spelling and also notes the disappeared post reappeared (which had some spelling edit). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 28 May 2007 23:24:50 |
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Iliphar1
Learned Scribe
Austria
133 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2007 : 23:23:01
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regardin Archers:
If I would be the wizard, I would memorize/cast Protection from Arrows, Wrightform, advanced invisibility and fly.
Then I would fly over the enemy army and cast fireballs, icestorm and other area target spells. No army in a small pass should survive that.
Other army's mages: dispel magic, dispel magic, and maybe wall of Force
priests: How does Wall of Dispel magic work? |
'You see dead bones? ... I see an army!' Ezechiel 37 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2007 : 23:24:28
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How do the B wizards counter the threat? Pre-emptively. Have them fly ahead, and simply start duking it out with the A wizards.
Failing that, use the dispel/counterspell option.
Or...
How about multiple walls of force, right over your infantry? |
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Denoples
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2007 : 23:53:24
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Oh, about the numbers. One army is 30,000 and the other is about 6000. Both have only a handful of wizards.
Arrows cannot be aimed. So using arrows against the wizards is impossible. |
Edited by - Denoples on 28 May 2007 23:55:16 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2007 : 23:58:44
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5 Wizards a side, it is no problem then.
Why can not arrows be aimed, but spells can be. Both require line of sight? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2007 : 03:42:17
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Small solution:
Wind wall across the face of the canyon. Throw dust & other small things into the wall, meaning that the "fireball beads" won't go through because they'll hit something (boom 100 or so feet early).
A couple of folks had presented walls of force. Any wall would do, really. Make them climb to you over the wall of iron/stone/whatever. This exhausts their infantry and prevents the spellcasters from targeting you. And allows you to make them come to you through a hail of arrows.
Big Solution: hide 2 spellcasters in the archers. Use "summon large rock" (a.k.a. Summon Golem/huge outsider/whatever) above the opposing army's forces. The enemy spellcasters will have to deal with the summons, although it could be fairly quick.
While this commotion is working, 1 spellcaster from the small army should be placed just outside the canyon walls, a meat shield of a sort. This caster should be invisible, and have nothing but fireball and 2 shatter spells prepared. Fireball the enemy AFTER it has gone into the cavern, then cast shatter on either side of the canyon walls. So you've taken out 36 of theirs, plus whatever the coming cave-in caused. You could do that from the high ground, too, using levitate as your "firing platform" and "protection from arrows" to fight the enemy. Add this to the small solution, and you might just pull off an upset victory. Terrain is your friend, use it both as defense and offense.
The big question is number of and levels of spellcasters on both sides. If army A w/30,000 has 1 7th, 2 5th, 4 3rd, and 8 first level casters, you're fine, in all reality. A maximum of 11 fireballs would take out (at maximum) 36 people each, meaning 396 of your infantry gone. That's not a large amount, and, honestly, you know youre going to lose.
If the army B with 6,000 has a 5th, 2 3rd and 4 1st level casters, being smaller, then you really are quite hosed. Preparing for this engagement could be a "300" type of move. You're all gonna die, but you won't let them through. Perhaps army B has a wand of dispel magic? I'd consider that a way of evening up the odds, although not quite enough.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
Edited by - Darkmeer on 29 May 2007 03:43:17 |
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Odysseus
Seeker
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2007 : 12:30:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Denoples
Oh, about the numbers. One army is 30,000 and the other is about 6000. Both have only a handful of wizards.
assuming you have to hit at least 10% of army A to effects its morale. And you only have five wizards, thats 14 fireballs per wizard. Thats assuming 30000 guys are all standing next to each other. I don't believe that few a wizards would have a big effect without , something like wands of fireballs etc. |
“Anybody can become angry, that is easy; but to be angry with the right person, and to the right degree, and at the right time, and for the right purpose, and in the right way, that is not within everybody’s power, that is not easy.” —Aristotle |
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Denoples
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2007 : 13:28:18
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The small army is mostly archers. There are about 2000 men down in the passage. Army A can only attack them with a limited number of people at once.
But if the wizards of army A can fire several fireballs then this means at least 50 to 100 deaths in army B battle line. And then they still have to defend their position.
You can't aim arrows at specific people. You aim them at the enemy as a whole. So if you were to observe an enemy wizard you would only be able to shoot a volley in his direction. |
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Kes_Alanadel
Learned Scribe
USA
326 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2007 : 14:41:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Denoples
You can't aim arrows at specific people. You aim them at the enemy as a whole. So if you were to observe an enemy wizard you would only be able to shoot a volley in his direction.
Sorry I'm confused about this part (it might be because I just woke up ). Unless there are different rules in Heroes of Battle, which I haven't read, an archer can target a single creature that is within the bow's range. Granted there may be range increment penalties, or miss chances/cover bonuses for the target. Being able to snipe an enemy from distances is what can make an archer so very dangerous.
~Kes |
Ack! I seem to have too much blood in my coffee stream!
When did 'common sense' cease to be common? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2007 : 14:49:23
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If you have 4,000 archers a handful of Wizards will not survive long enough to get into range to cast fireball.
In RL yes arrows are fired at a body of people in general, however good archers indeed can taget a leader and hit them at long range. In D&D the rules require a target being selected and a 20 roll hits the target. This means on average 200 arrows per round will hit a wizard (or at least an unarmored foe). Depending on level of Wizards of A there will be at about 5 rounds before Wizards get close enough to cast a spell at all. A level 5 Wizard Fireball has a range of 600 feet, Wizards can advanve 30 foot per round. This gives archers a 400 foot killing zone. Higher level does get a 40 foot increased range per level, put this means A Wizards have to be level 15 to match the bows reach for each to kill each other in the same round.
Also spells are limited arrows might not be, but this again comes down to resources. What each army has.
In RW the English defeated a surperior French army (as far as numbers go) because of the English longbow. Though French tactics were a factor as well (Knights more interested in personal honor then working as a team for group honor). Of course there was no magic in play in RW battles, but the bow is a deadly weapon. Range is the friend to any bowman. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2007 : 16:52:43
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Can't see, Can't fight: If you can eliminate the ability to see into the canyon (darkness, cloud spells, walls). However, be aware that a simple flight spell can give the mage the ability to see over such things. It might also behoove the caster to hide his army under an illusion as well.
There, Not There: goes along with the previous. If you do hide your army, the best thing to do is to convince the enemy that your army is not where they're actually standing. Illusion can create a force that can simulate reaction to fireballs, lightning bolts, etc....
The Power of Magnetism: Now, I don't know what kind of prep time we're talking about, nor what levels of wizards we're talking about. However, one thing that would be useful is magnetics. If you can use spells (and there are some out there) to create a magnetic pulls near your archers, you have a good defense for them from arrow assaults. The problem then becomes their own arrows not being able to go through. It would be key in this instance to use non-magnetic arrowheads (whether you whip them up quickly with magic, or just happen to have). For instance, creating wooden arrowheads and casting ironwood on them (or in previous versions of the game, glassteel). Ironwood has the weight, strength and resistance to fire that regular steel, but its still wood and not affected by spells that affect metal (such as heat metal... or magnetism). Using wood shaping magics, hundreds of arrowheads could be made as one continous chain (barely attached at the edges), have the ironwood cast on them, then bend them apart. Of course, this concept would depend on a druid being available, but if you look there are likely other similar combos (major creation comes to mind, as does stoneshape). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Odysseus
Seeker
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2007 : 17:09:26
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Presumably your saying the armies isn't able to identify the wizards to fire at them.
I would say hiding the Defenders is the best bet. Using various cloud/fog spells.You could always use wall of stone spells across the canyon.
The non magic tactics is the skirmish line. Adding effective firepower to a medieval army, will reduce the effectiveness of heavy infantry, and increases the importance of light infantry(Skirmishers).
You can't clear a skirmish line with fireballs or massed archers. You need other skirmishers, or an infanrty charge.
Against artillery you don't hold narrow passes by standing in nice formations, you dig in, built fortifications etc.
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“Anybody can become angry, that is easy; but to be angry with the right person, and to the right degree, and at the right time, and for the right purpose, and in the right way, that is not within everybody’s power, that is not easy.” —Aristotle |
Edited by - Odysseus on 29 May 2007 17:12:26 |
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Denoples
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2007 : 11:17:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
In RW the English defeated a surperior French army (as far as numbers go) because of the English longbow.
It wasn't really the longbow that won the English the battle of agincourt. It was the terrain. The longbows don't penetrate well made plate mail.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2007 : 14:38:14
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| Well in this case you have terrain for army be, besides arrows clearly tale out horses unless they were also well aemored. The bow itself did not win the day, as I indicated it was also tactics. In your A and B armies, B is not even trying to win the day, just safely withdraw to join a larger force. Not sure withdrawal is possible because if B reteats over plains after passing though the valley, A army will have numbers that can effectively be used on an open battle feild. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Denoples
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2007 : 16:17:51
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So does anyone know something about magic runes or counterspells?
The D&D system was not designed for large scales battles. So I am trying to find a way to balance this, not to make up tactics that can be used. So new rules, new spells, those kinds of things. |
Edited by - Denoples on 30 May 2007 16:20:58 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2007 : 16:36:38
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Well D&D has offered mass combat rules for prior Editions, War Machine and Battle System come to mind. Either could be adopted to 3.X
Counterspells to actually block fireballs you have been offered many, Wall of Force and so on.
There is some rune magic and of course a Wondrous Item could be made that would in effect be a rune. Something simalar to Feather Tokens could be crafted with any spell you wish to charge them with. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Denoples
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2007 : 20:56:43
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| Do you know what a counterspell is? |
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Kes_Alanadel
Learned Scribe
USA
326 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2007 : 21:07:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Denoples
Do you know what a counterspell is?
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you aren't deliberately trying to be rude. 
The rules for counterspelling are in the PHB, on page 170, and an explination of readying an action for counterspelling on page 160.
Mass combat rules can be found in Heroes of Battle, the tome I mentioned earlier.
Edit: MoF states that a full explination of Rune Magic is in the FRCS.
~Kes |
Ack! I seem to have too much blood in my coffee stream!
When did 'common sense' cease to be common? |
Edited by - Kes_Alanadel on 30 May 2007 21:20:26 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2007 : 21:09:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Denoples
Do you know what a counterspell is?
*sighs* I do know what they are in general, know fireball and see it be cast you can try to counterspell it by casting your own fireball, or cast dispell. It however appears that you were not using counterspell in that context. Rather it appeared you were looking for magical defenses against fireballs that the defending army could use.
Oh I see you are playing that silly card game, which does have Realms cards. I rather though you were playing a D&D game.
quote:
Counterspells
It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. By doing so, you are using the spell’s energy to disrupt the casting of the same spell by another character. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.
How Counterspells Work
To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing the ready action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. (You may still move your speed, since ready is a standard action.)
If the target of your counterspell tries to cast a spell, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things.
To complete the action, you must then cast the correct spell. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (if you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 30 May 2007 21:12:40 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2007 : 21:23:48
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Glad somebody mentioned counterspells, because that's the one cheesy thing I saw in the recent elf war books. They had elves counterspelling the fey'ri (and vice versa). This is pretty much a waste, because how do I know that myself and 3 other mages aren't all targeting the same wizard to counterspell them while 3 other wizards are getting their fireball off. Even worse, in a massed battle, why would I ready an action to counterspell, when there's every chance in the world that the one mage I've chosen to do my spellcraft check against isn't going to cast a spell that I have in memory (or is going to be countered by another of my comrades). I can see the elves doing general area dispel magics against one another, and that would make total sense, but the other felt cheesy.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 21:58:44
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Glad somebody mentioned counterspells, because that's the one cheesy thing I saw in the recent elf war books. They had elves counterspelling the fey'ri (and vice versa). This is pretty much a waste, because how do I know that myself and 3 other mages aren't all targeting the same wizard to counterspell them while 3 other wizards are getting their fireball off. Even worse, in a massed battle, why would I ready an action to counterspell, when there's every chance in the world that the one mage I've chosen to do my spellcraft check against isn't going to cast a spell that I have in memory (or is going to be countered by another of my comrades). I can see the elves doing general area dispel magics against one another, and that would make total sense, but the other felt cheesy.
There are several feats chains and spell options that increase the flexibility and usefulness of counter spelling.
Dispelling screen is a great spell in the above mentioned limited terrain. It's a favorite of our War Wizard against a variety of lesser foes. |
"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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bitter thorn
Learned Scribe
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2007 : 22:00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Glad somebody mentioned counterspells, because that's the one cheesy thing I saw in the recent elf war books. They had elves counterspelling the fey'ri (and vice versa). This is pretty much a waste, because how do I know that myself and 3 other mages aren't all targeting the same wizard to counterspell them while 3 other wizards are getting their fireball off. Even worse, in a massed battle, why would I ready an action to counterspell, when there's every chance in the world that the one mage I've chosen to do my spellcraft check against isn't going to cast a spell that I have in memory (or is going to be countered by another of my comrades). I can see the elves doing general area dispel magics against one another, and that would make total sense, but the other felt cheesy.
There are several feats chains and spell options that increase the flexibility and usefulness of counter spelling.
Dispelling screen is a great spell in the above mentioned limited terrain. It's a favorite of our War Wizard against a variety of lesser foes. |
"Nobody listens to the Ranger!"
Our groups are all sticking with 3.X classic Realms. |
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Magic as artillery
