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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Apr 2007 : 02:06:18
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One of the things that I really liked about this section of the book is that we see several times that sentient creatures are indeed individuals. From the gnolls that Bareris works with, to the orc that he speaks with, to the gravecrawler at the end of the book, and indeed, even Tsagoth, all of these creatures could have been written as “monster” with no perspective of their own, but they aren't, and it makes the story much more intersting.
In fact, its facinating in that there are some interesting matters of degree in this book so far. We know that Thay is a twisted, evil place, but because we have some interesting, fairly “upright” protagonists like Aoth and Bareris, its easier to see that while much of Thay may be evil and debased, people always have a drive to defend their homes, and even in a place that can be quite horrible, people will fight to keep it from becoming worse than it already is.
The encounter with the gravecrawler that Bareris has reminded me of the encounter with the linnorm in the Year of Rogue Dragons books, and I like that. I like the idea that we see creatures introduced that, while powerful and potentially dangerous, serve to advance the story by providing council and information, not just as one more exotic thing to kill or be killed.
It was interesting as well to see some lore from before Thay dominated the region that it was in, and to see some hints of ancient Mulhorandi influence in the region.
Its been a bit shocking to see a few zulkirs actually dying in this story, but it has been handled in a very interesting manner. What I like is that there are so many directions you can go with the plot so far. Is Szass Tam just getting rid of potential opponents and picking up some non standard allies? Is he “pulling a Palpatine” and staging a false force dangerous to Thay to consolidate his power base? Is he just an oppourtunist that is consolidating his base in the face of a foe that he doesn't know much about yet? Or is it that Szass Tam has finally just decided to throw the whole nation of Thay and the Red Wizards to the wolves and turn Thay into an undead empire under his control? I like the idea that it still seems like any of these are possible.
I was sorry to see Mari go. For some reason, just knowing that she was as defiant as she was for as long as she was made her a compelling character.
I really like Malark Springhill, and I wonder if his story is as simple as he has detailed. Okay, I know, he doesn't have a “simple” history by the normal definition of the word, but what I mean is, does he have an agenda beyond being an agent of Dmitra Flass?
Aoth has grown on me so that he is nearly as interesting as Bareris is, and his familiar has grown on me quite a bit as well. Its interesting to see a character that is an arcane caster in Thay and not a Red Wizard, and to see him struggle with the idea that he may need to put his neck out on the line to point out the potential issues that his superiors have overlooked, mainly because a non Red Wizard arcanist certainly couldn't be wise enough to see flaws that others have not.
I liked the twisted way that Xingax sees everything, as a creature born (or not quite) dead, and thus not fully understanding human emotions and perspectives. It was also interesting to see him take paternal pride in the undead creations that he makes, especially the “free willed” or “intelligent” ones.
Looking forward to seeing what Aoth does to resolve his delima, and Mirror looks like an interesting addition to the cast. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 01:47:14
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I really like Malark Springhill, and I wonder if his story is as simple as he has detailed. Okay, I know, he doesn't have a “simple” history by the normal definition of the word, but what I mean is, does he have an agenda beyond being an agent of Dmitra Flass?
*chuckles* Come on, I don't see why he wouldn't. He definitely has quite an interesting backstory to say the least...and unexpected too, considering that he doesn't seem like anyone special or out of the ordinary when he is first introduced.
Regarding the people defending their homes point that you raised, I was thinking about that earlier. Why on earth is Aoth (and for the record, I'm not quite certain yet of how upright he really is, beyond being somewhat better morally than many of these other folks) content to serve these horrible people? I'm not going to feel saddened if a substantial number of these Thayan characters die--the Realms would be better off without them, even if it's likely that people just as bad will take their place.
The undead aborted fetus both disgusts me and makes me want to learn more... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 16:55:14
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I think for Aoth it kind of boils down to, "yes, these guys are rotten bastards, but what's the alternative." I does make me wonder what Thayans grow up learning about the Rashemmi and Aglarondans? I'm sure after a few of her rampages its not too hard for the Red Wizards to spin the Simbul as a destructive force that would level even the common folk of Thay if given the chance. Similarly, we saw a bit of the mindset regarding the Rashemi as bloodthirsty spirit worshiping savages.
I think Aoth is one of those characters that reminds of that the rank and file soldiers in involved in some of these "evil nations" are individuals, not villains in their own right, and they might just have to "go along to get along."
The atropal is very disquieting. They have always seemed like really nasty monsters from what I have read of them, due to their very viceral effect on a person's sensibilities I've always been hesitant to actually use one in my games. That having been said, its interesting to get to see one and its perspectives in action. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2007 : 22:19:50
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I think for Aoth it kind of boils down to, "yes, these guys are rotten bastards, but what's the alternative." I does make me wonder what Thayans grow up learning about the Rashemmi and Aglarondans? I'm sure after a few of her rampages its not too hard for the Red Wizards to spin the Simbul as a destructive force that would level even the common folk of Thay if given the chance. Similarly, we saw a bit of the mindset regarding the Rashemi as bloodthirsty spirit worshiping savages.
I think Aoth is one of those characters that reminds of that the rank and file soldiers in involved in some of these "evil nations" are individuals, not villains in their own right, and they might just have to "go along to get along."
Yeah, you might be right. This guy is hard for me to pin down, but it's probably a case where the simplest explanation is the right one.
quote:
The atropal is very disquieting. They have always seemed like really nasty monsters from what I have read of them, due to their very viceral effect on a person's sensibilities I've always been hesitant to actually use one in my games. That having been said, its interesting to get to see one and its perspectives in action.
The fact that this character looks like a baby--in this case a fetus, complete with an umbilical cord--is in my opinion the creepiest thing about it. It's pure horror combined with the ultimate look of helplessness. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Apr 2007 22:21:50 |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1075 Posts |
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2007 : 16:14:49
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This whole plot of Szass Tam is quite funny actually. How would you as a commoner react if a lich turns out to be the friendliest guy in Faerun?
Although Szass Tams plot as some simlarities to Star Wars, it reminds me more of US policy, keeping the citizens on edge all the time and propagandising military victorys where there aren't any (or these hero stories the US Army was making up quite recently). Cutting back civil rights to ensure the future of the realm, etc. etc.
In my opinion, this book is the most political one ever published in the FR.
Anyway, back to the story: I'm curious how many zulkirs Szass Tam has to kill off til they'll surrender to his power. And Dmitra Flass is an unknown variable... |
Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2007 : 18:18:22
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Whatever the political overtones of the book may be, Candlekeep is not the place to discuss real world politics, so lets please veer away from comparisions to current political situations. As a side note, as George Lucas mentioned when asked about the political content of the Prequel Trilogy, certain themes are common throughout history, and while they may be relevant to the current time, they may not be generated by current politics.
That having been said, lets get back to discussion on this particular novel.
Thanks. |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1075 Posts |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2007 : 03:05:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Arkhaedun
Whatever the political overtones of the book may be, Candlekeep is not the place to discuss real world politics
But Braveheart isn't discussing politics, so much as discussing parallels Unclean has with the contemporary world. IMHO, if we fans are to take Forgotten Realms fiction seriously, we should be able to do at least that (while avoiding arguments about politics.) |
Edited by - RodOdom on 30 Apr 2007 03:06:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2007 : 03:52:53
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quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
quote:
Originally posted by Arkhaedun
Whatever the political overtones of the book may be, Candlekeep is not the place to discuss real world politics
But Braveheart isn't discussing politics, so much as discussing parallels Unclean has with the contemporary world. IMHO, if we fans are to take Forgotten Realms fiction seriously, we should be able to do at least that (while avoiding arguments about politics.)
Parallels or not, the comment could be considered political commentary. While drawing comparisons is one thing, I've seen huge arguments arise over less. We just need to tread carefully in certain areas.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2007 : 04:09:23
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| I agree, and it's a bit presumptuous to imply that Mr. Byers set out to write a "political book" where Szass Tam's machinations are to be compared to the politics of the U.S. government. I agree with Arkhaedun that some themes (such as those explored in the book) are universal and are not direct commentary on current events. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2007 : 10:20:02
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I don't want to start off any political discussion and am sorry if it seems otherwise. I was just writing down my thoughts  .
Yours,
Braveheart |
Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1075 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2007 : 12:23:43
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This is what I thought when I read your post Braveheart 
I was glad that you said that Braveheart, I don’t think I would have noticed that perspective.
Maybe we should ask the author if there are some hidden messages in the book, ore if FBI ore CIA had some influence one how Szass Tam try’s to take control of They.
One last thing.. If there would be a election in They it wouldn’t matter how the people would vote, because the winner of the election would be the one with the deeps pockets.. just like…..
Yours
Victor_ograygor
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Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master
Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.
Links related to Forgotten Realms
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9571
Adventuring / Mercenary Companies / Orders / The chosen from official sources
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11047
Priests in Forgotten Realms.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9609&whichpage=1 |
Edited by - Victor_ograygor on 30 Apr 2007 13:26:25 |
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2007 : 14:38:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
One last thing.. If there would be a election in They it wouldn’t matter how the people would vote, because the winner of the election would be the one with the deeps pockets.. just like…..
Hm, considering the propaganda Szass Tam has deployed in the last months, I'd think he would win it. The zulkir with the deepest pockets is the one of transmutation (or so it says on page something in "Unclean") |
Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 02:05:19
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As to Aoth, yes, I really like the character. With the 3rd edition revisions to mages and the numerous options open to them, I find it harder to believe that every mage in Thay would be a red wizard. It makes more sense that some might seek another path that's less political, some might seek a path that's more militant, etc....
I too am upset that Mari Agneh is dead. In my games, I used to have an NPC who was her brother (Targuth Agneh) who was trying to find her.
I wonder if Aznar Thrul is finally dead. He has a lot of pull with the Church of Kossuth, after all the man personally met with Kossuth and convinced the elemental lord to cleanse the Priador of the salamander invasion. I can definitely see some prearranged steps for his resurrection should he fall, though he may stay in hiding for a bit until he can determine how his defenses were broken. Not that I'd miss him, I always hated the fat bastard.
Mod Edit:Arkhaedun |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - Arkhaedun on 04 May 2007 13:51:43 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 02:15:18
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>>I does make me wonder what Thayans grow up learning about the Rashemmi and Aglarondans? I'm >>sure after a few of her rampages its not too hard for the Red Wizards to spin the Simbul as >>a destructive force that would level even the common folk of Thay if given the chance. >>Similarly, we saw a bit of the mindset regarding the Rashemi as bloodthirsty spirit >>worshiping savages.
Yep, that would be about what they're taught. The Aglarondans are considered basically tree huggers who are so worried about their forest that "they stand in the way of progress". Also, they're such "backwards arsed fools that they fear magic and those who practice it rather than attempting to learn and advance themselves. They fear their Simbul almost as much as they fear we Thayans, and if we were to conquer them we'd bring them a level of prosperity they could never dream of. However, they're too foolish to see that".
As to the Rashemi, you nailed it on the head. However, they are also told stories of ancient Raumathar, and its from this that Thayans feel like the Rashemi are "regressing from their former glory". Of course, the Rashemi witches are "all masked so that they can secretly control their countrymen through fear-filled paranoia" and "they don't allow their men folk to practice magic because the women want to maintain control". |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 04:10:41
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Once more . . . if we say that a given topic is off limits, its off limits. Please lets refrain from making comments that have been proscribed. There is plenty in the book to discuss without going into territory that we have already deemed as a bit too difficult to navigate through.
Thanks. |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1075 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 13:19:24
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas.
I wonder if Aznar Thrul is finally dead. He has a lot of pull with the Church of Kossuth, after all the man personally met with Kossuth and convinced the elemental lord to cleanse the Priador of the salamander invasion. I can definitely see some prearranged steps for his resurrection should he fall, though he may stay in hiding for a bit until he can determine how his defenses were broken. Not that I'd miss him, I always hated the fat bastard.
I tried to read the part again where Aznar Thrul died (I didn’t like the way he died) but the author made it clear that his body were in save hands, and wasn’t destroyed 
I am almost a 100% that he would come back, he is the only one that would have a little chance against Szass Tam. (Just guessing)
Ahh I must admit that he was one of my favourite Zulkirs.. and one thing as I remember he inset fat but yes he is a bastard
Mod Edit: Arkhaedun
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Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master
Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.
Links related to Forgotten Realms
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9571
Adventuring / Mercenary Companies / Orders / The chosen from official sources
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11047
Priests in Forgotten Realms.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9609&whichpage=1 |
Edited by - Victor_ograygor on 04 May 2007 13:56:51 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 14:34:53
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>>Ahh I must admit that he was one of my favourite Zulkirs.. and one thing as I remember he >>inset fat but yes he is a bastard
yeah, but plump bastard doesn't have the same ring. He wasn't skinny, but yeah, he wasn't Samas Kul |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1075 Posts |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2007 : 18:04:23
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| He's a human. (Well, it doesn't say anything about him being non-human at least - which it usually does in the novels). |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2007 : 22:45:19
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| It says earlier that he's a human who found an item that basically stopped the aging process for him, betraying his fellow man in order to use it all himself. I really like the character, especially that he's affiliated with the monks of the long death. I wouldn't be surprised if he was one of the founders. Its good to see a long-lived character who ISN'T a mage of power, or priest favored by their god. He definitely has some monk levels, but I wouldn't be surprised to find some roguish classes as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2007 : 23:07:47
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| I can't remember the exact passage, but I seem to recall that there seemed to be something that happened in the book that made me think that he might have some assasin training as well. If anyone can remember, let me know, but I thought he cast a minor spell or some such. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2007 : 23:29:23
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I would be surprised if he were a founding member, because I didn't get that impression.
Anyway, I like how he is both a Monk of the Long Death...and not. The monks of the Long Death wouldn't like him and probably would kill him if they got a hold of him...but he agrees with their code, so he is, in a way, still one of them. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 07 May 2007 00:55:13 |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1075 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 18:22:45
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Its been a bit shocking to see a few zulkirs actually dying in this story, but it has been handled in a very interesting manner.
Agreed. Actually, upon reading Rhym's assassination I thought that more zulkirs would be killed---at a certain price, of course.
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I liked the twisted way that Xingax sees everything, as a creature born (or not quite) dead, and thus not fully understanding human emotions and perspectives. It was also interesting to see him take paternal pride in the undead creations that he makes, especially the “free willed” or “intelligent” ones.
I see him as one of the most astonishing and interesting characters in the series. It’s just sad that what I hoped didn’t happen: that he’d know of Szass plan/ultimate goal and oppose him openly. That would have been something great to see. While Xingax was only the lich’s lackey, he’s not without powers. I can easily imagine he’d give Szass more than a mere pause.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Unclean: Chapters 8 - 11
