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aracnomancer
Acolyte
Brazil
11 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 14:33:03
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Hi, I'd like to know about the Bane's Return:
When it happened (day and month)
What happened (Xvin, other important cultists)
Where it happened (in Faerűn or only in his plane)
How it happened (how did he plan his return, from where he plan, somebody helped him)
And other things you Sages think it's important about it!!!
Thanks
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 15:04:36
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The FRCS and F&P references are the only sources we have on this. They gave us small notes saying that on this one particular night (Midwinter night of 1372 DR), all worshippers of Iyachtu Xvim had a dream where they saw him split apart and Bane emerged from within.
As for how Bane returned... my "current" theory:-
"Let's assume that Bane'e Return wasn't planned, and when Xvim had gathered enough of Bane's power and essence, it reached a critical mass and overwhelmed him. I can see Bane, after such an event, being a little different from what he was previously -- perhaps even existing as a merged being between both himself and what was left of Xvim.
His symbols and colour change to more closely match Xvim. That would also indicate more of a merge -- which, in my opinion, points to the theory I listed. Xvim's (ascended) symbol looked more like his dad's -- only with the hand sitting with the thumb facing the left, rather than the right like Bane's. And Xvim's symbols have always had eyes -- old and ascended.
Bane's new symbol has still got the black fist (facing the same way as his old symbol) and squeezing green rays. Xvim's symbols always had a green component to them -- in the form of those eyes on his symbols. Perhaps the green rays in the new Bane symbol could reflect Xvim's past existence with Bane -- maybe illustrating how Xvim was later replaced (or rather subsumed) by a resurrected Bane by the fact that his black fist is closing in on the green rays (that represent Xvim).
And we must not forget that Bane's old symbol had the black hand on a red field -- so Bane 2.0 is using Xvim's colors. The green mainly... though, as I said above, Bane's Hand is still the same in the new symbol as it was in the old -- just clutching rather than flat. Bane 2.0 is utilising Xvim's green.
If the "planned" explanation is used, then Bane should have kept his old colours of red and black. The fact that he's using black and green suggests that some of Xvim remains... And that's another interesting thing: how much of a tyrant could Bane be if he couldn't even totally subsume his own son?
The more I think about this and the lore we do have, the more I tend to think that Bane's return was as much a surprise to him as it was to anyone else.
Though... Bane's Hand is squeezing the green rays -- and if we look at that from the "Bane-eventually-subsumes-Xvim" stand point, that image itself could suggest Bane is perhaps closing in around Xvim's remnants, or rather, slowly squeezing it out of existence (or rather again, completely consuming it).
It could be, if we assume Bane's Return was in fact an opportunity rather than something properly planned on Bane's behalf, that Bane's current image is transitory. Once Bane's completely consumes what remains of Xvim into his being... Bane's older symbol (or a new and reinvigorated symbol) may become apparent. Bane's resurrection then, will be properly complete.
It could also be that Bane's hand is clutching an object that is shining forth, despite his desire to contain it... Xvim perhaps. Sure, it's not appropriate for a god of tyranny, but it is an alternate interpretation. The aspect shining forth could represent also Freedom. Bane's squeezing or crushing it could suggest how tyranny is usually equated with the end of freedom.
If that's the case... then it's highly appropriate."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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Edited by - The Sage on 12 Mar 2007 15:05:48 |
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aracnomancer
Acolyte
Brazil
11 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 15:14:56
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That's a nice theory! Thanks
I've heard that Xvim was in Westgate, is that true?
The previous questions are very important, if someone could give me a hand! Thanks again! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 16:16:03
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I used to favor the accidental return theory that Sage speaks of, but now I favor the idea that Xvim is posing as the reborn Bane. Of course, it's all supposition, right now.  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 16:19:32
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quote:
Originally posted by aracnomancer
That's a nice theory! Thanks
I've heard that Xvim was in Westgate, is that true?
The previous questions are very important, if someone could give me a hand! Thanks again!
Yup, Xvim ruled Westgate for a while. See the Cloak & Dagger web enhancements for a bit more info.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Mar 2007 16:20:33 |
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aracnomancer
Acolyte
Brazil
11 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 17:44:35
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| There is nothing on Xvim in the WE, but thanks anyway, i've some nice things! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 20:16:14
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quote:
Originally posted by aracnomancer
There is nothing on Xvim in the WE, but thanks anyway, i've some nice things!
It's in the timeline. He ruled from 710 to 734. I said it was only a bit of info. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 23:20:36
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quote:
Originally posted by aracnomancer
That's a nice theory! Thanks
I've heard that Xvim was in Westgate, is that true?
The previous questions are very important, if someone could give me a hand! Thanks again!
Unfortunately, we can't really offer any more specific lore on most of your other questions because there's only been slight fragments revealed about Bane's return since the FRCS.
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Edited by - The Sage on 12 Mar 2007 23:21:17 |
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aracnomancer
Acolyte
Brazil
11 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 18:31:27
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_________________________________________________________________
Quote:
It's in the timeline. He ruled from 710 to 734. I said it was only a bit of info.
__________________________________________________________________
Oh... I thought it was in recent timeline, thanks...
Xvim is what kind of demom or devil?
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2007 : 23:18:03
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Eric, in his "Westgate Dynasties" reference (a web enhancement for Cloak & Dagger:- see here), tells us that during the time Xvim ruled Westgate he was "A cambion from another plane, who claims to be the son of Bane, god of tyranny."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - The Sage on 17 Mar 2007 23:18:41 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2007 : 20:50:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I used to favor the accidental return theory that Sage speaks of, but now I favor the idea that Xvim is posing as the reborn Bane. Of course, it's all supposition, right now.
As I have probably said before, this is also my favorite theory! (and a big secret in my campaigns ) |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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aracnomancer
Acolyte
Brazil
11 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2007 : 13:25:01
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| Thanks to all, and especially for the theories, they will help a lot! |
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nos
Acolyte
France
4 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2007 : 21:13:44
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We won't read a lot more about bane's return until WotC decide to say "yes" to a novel concerning this event. But we may extrapolate as some did.
I agree that bane's return wasn't planned as it's suggested in the FRCS when telling that Xvim was a seed. If it was the case, Bane wouldn't have organized the plot described in Finder's bane novel to get "the hand of bane" necessary for his resurrection. He would have "used" his son immediatly.
Bane must have taken advantage of some opportunities triggered by xvim's or Fzoul's actions. It likely wasn't a surprise to Bane, as all priests of Xvim received a vision of Bane emerging from the remains of their god. Bane must have sent this vision.
Also, I don't think the Bane "new version" is a merge of him & his son. Bane only like Bane, & uses others. In Shadowdale novel, when he took Trannus's body, he completly got rid of his priest's soul & just used his body as an avatar. In Faiths & Pantheons, it is said that "Xvim burst in a conflagration of diabolical green light". Bane blown away his son to retrieve his portfolio, & to be sure that none will contest his supremacy. The green light symbolize the divine essence of xvim, being drawing up by bane.
actually, Bane did with his son what many gods did by killing another god: they take their portfolio & their power. They grow stronger, but remain the same. The green light squeezing from his fist tells us that he took xvim's power, but it is Bane, more powerful than ever!
Xvim is consumed, Bane is resurrected.
Bane's dogma: Serve no one but Bane. fear him always and make others fear him even more than you do... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2007 : 22:56:34
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quote:
Originally posted by nos
We won't read a lot more about bane's return until WotC decide to say "yes" to a novel concerning this event.
Indeed. And there isn't and it's been asked for repeatedly. WotC keeps telling Ed, and others, no.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2007 : 23:40:10
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quote:
Originally posted by nos
The green light squeezing from his fist tells us that he took xvim's power, but it is Bane, more powerful than ever!
Xvim is consumed, Bane is resurrected.
But Bane is a tyrant... If green remains, it means that Xvim is still somewhat present. So what kind of tyrant shows off that he can't crush his own son?
It is my opinion that if Bane 2.0 was the same as 1.0, then he would have kept the same symbol. What better way to show your abilities as a tyrant than to leave no sign whatsoever of your predecessor? The fact that his symbol changed, and kept Xvim's green, indicates to me that some part of Xvim remains -- either as a (sub)merged portion of Bane, or as Bane's impostor. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2007 : 00:31:17
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Indeed. I think we went over that earlier.
In the end, the fact that Xvim's green is [struggling perhaps] to shine through, while being "squeezed", could even demonstrate that the Godson himself wasn't beyond Bane's ultimate grab for complete divine tyranny.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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jespin
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2007 : 01:36:40
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| Sorry, I'm new to the boards, but has any one suggested that Xvim absorbded too many bane dead from the "Finder's Bane" novel or that too many of them were destroyed? I believe each one had a sliver of Bane's divinity because they were able to grant spells to Bane's clerics, or some such (i can't find my copy of the novel right now, my bad). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2007 : 01:44:39
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quote:
Originally posted by jespin
Sorry, I'm new to the boards, but has any one suggested that Xvim absorbded too many bane dead from the "Finder's Bane" novel or that too many of them were destroyed? I believe each one had a sliver of Bane's divinity because they were able to grant spells to Bane's clerics, or some such (i can't find my copy of the novel right now, my bad).
That's part of both the planned return and unplanned return theories: once enough of Bane's scattered bits of divinity were recovered, they (along with the blood of Bane, flowing in Xvims's veins) achieved a kind of critical mass, and triggered his return. The question is whether this return was planned, unplanned, or if it happened at all. |
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jespin
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2007 : 02:15:52
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| Oh, thanks. If i had a vote i would say it was planned, how and why else would the lord of all tyrrants give some of his divinity away? It might not have been an A then B leads to C plan but if Mystra was smart enough to store a little away why wouldn't Bane after Mystra keeps ruining all his original ideas. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2007 : 02:51:16
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quote:
Originally posted by jespin
Oh, thanks. If i had a vote i would say it was planned, how and why else would the lord of all tyrrants give some of his divinity away? It might not have been an A then B leads to C plan but if Mystra was smart enough to store a little away why wouldn't Bane after Mystra keeps ruining all his original ideas.
My main reason for not liking that theory is that nothing we've seen of Bane suggests he would deliberately plan for his own defeat. A worthwhile tyrant would take steps to make sure he wasn't defeated, not to ensure he could come back if he was. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2007 : 03:42:20
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I disagree with sage and Wollys theory that it happaned by accident
Thanks to Pool of Twilight we know that Bane had prior knowledge of his own defeat centuries before it happaned (ie the Oracle of Strife)
As for Bane using "Xvim Green" for his Holy Symbol I think its more likely a result of real world issues than a Faerunian Divine conspiracy
Remember Banes resurrection was a late addition to the FRC design process (Infact the first 3ed FR source book: Pool of Radiance Attack on Myth Drannor, includes stats for Xvims portfolios, Domaians and favoured weapons) I reckon what happaned was that Banes art was orignally Xvims for the FRC and when Sean killed off Xvim and resurrected Bane Wizards decided to keep Xvims artwork rather than pay for a new piece of artwork |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2007 : 04:43:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I disagree with sage and Wollys theory that it happaned by accident
Thanks to Pool of Twilight we know that Bane had prior knowledge of his own defeat centuries before it happaned (ie the Oracle of Strife)
I'm not familiar with this material... Does it explain why, knowing he was going to be defeated, Bane still followed the course of actions that lead to his death?
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
As for Bane using "Xvim Green" for his Holy Symbol I think its more likely a result of real world issues than a Faerunian Divine conspiracy
Remember Banes resurrection was a late addition to the FRC design process (Infact the first 3ed FR source book: Pool of Radiance Attack on Myth Drannor, includes stats for Xvims portfolios, Domaians and favoured weapons) I reckon what happaned was that Banes art was orignally Xvims for the FRC and when Sean killed off Xvim and resurrected Bane Wizards decided to keep Xvims artwork rather than pay for a new piece of artwork
But was that artwork actually in color? If it wasn't, they could have said it was any color they wanted... And, in fact, they could have changed it at any time since, but they haven't. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2007 : 05:30:29
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The FRC art work is in colour and contains green
I suspect he didnt have a choice
About 3 years ago I wrote up a theory over at wizards forums as to how Bane resurrected himself using all the avaliable material on the subject ie Source books and novels. Ill have a look and see if I can find it |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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nos
Acolyte
France
4 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2007 : 21:57:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Thanks to Pool of Twilight we know that Bane had prior knowledge of his own defeat centuries before it happaned (ie the Oracle of Strife)
excellent info, never read the novel nor even play the game; I'm going to fix this soon.
As Wooly said, hope they explain why he still followed the same course of actions.
quote:
As for Bane using "Xvim Green" for his Holy Symbol I think its more likely a result of real world issues than a Faerunian Divine conspiracy
Yep, or maybe to show to all, without any ambiguity, that Xvim is dead, killed by his father, & from now on, Bane is the only god of tyranny, hatred & fear. Who better than a tyrant could do such a thing?
Yes, green remains, & I think it has been choosen on purpose. It represents Xvim's essence consumed by Bane. Why completly crush Xvim if he can use his essence to grow more powerful. Faiths & pantheons says "From the smoking husk of his remains emerged a newly reinvigorated Bane".
or maybe Bane just like green, who knows?
quote:
Ill have a look and see if I can find it
could be interesting.
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Eat well, stay fit, die anyway... |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2007 : 22:14:45
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I'm curious . . . did the Oracle of Strife show Bane his defeat, i.e. his ultimate defeat, or just his fall, i.e. the Godswar. Or did it show him his initial defeat in Shadowdale, and his "backup" plan was to have Myrkul piece him back together as he did after his avatar was destroyed in Shadowdale. I'm just wondering how specific this was, given that Bane had a few set backs in a row.
Also, it was intimated in the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy that Bane knew that if they stole the Tablets of Fate, they would be cast down, and that he actually wanted that to happen so he could put his plan against Mystra into place.
So, I guess I'm saying that I don't know how clearly Bane saw his "downfall" or how specific his knowledge of the events of the Time of Troubles were . . . it seemed like he had a general idea about things in the Shadows of the Avatar books, but not a firm, ultra detailed outline. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2007 : 23:04:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
I disagree with sage and Wollys theory that it happaned by accident
Thanks to Pool of Twilight we know that Bane had prior knowledge of his own defeat centuries before it happaned (ie the Oracle of Strife)
I'm not familiar with this material... Does it explain why, knowing he was going to be defeated, Bane still followed the course of actions that lead to his death?
It may simply have been a deity's arrogance.
Bane may have actually thought that regardless of what he learned from the Oracle, his ultimate power and mastery could still somehow triumph... that he could still overcome that final, fateful bout with Torm during the ToT. That is, if what he learned was that specific about what would happen to him, his experiences with the Tablets of Fate, and his destruction.
Otherwise, as KEJR noted above, maybe what Bane learned from the Oracle wasn't as specific -- perhaps just vague references about one particular pathway he may adopt somehow leading to his future demise. The Oracle may not have provided him with actual certified dangers, "pointers to watch out for", that he should try to avoid or work to counter, in his future.
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Edited by - The Sage on 21 Mar 2007 23:10:35 |
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jespin
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2007 : 00:54:18
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| Maybe it was all Ao's plan. He could have sepperated a small part of all the gods divinty as a fail safe if they got them selves deystroyed and he still needed a god of "insert profile". |
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Return of Bane
