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lokilokust
Seeker
USA
61 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 20:08:52
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i'm curious as to how many people here prefer the way halflings were in previous editions (we're hobbits! only without that pesky copyright infringement!) to what they've become (we're kender! only slightly more boring!)
i do see the advantages of the three basic halfling types, but it just all seems a bit awkward nowadays.
when you folks run games, do you stick with the old tropes or dive in with the new?
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yrs. in exile,
-s.j. bagley |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 20:16:22
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I stick with the three old species of halflings, the newer versions don't tempt me one bit. The same goes for changes done to gnomes (smaller noses and much else), dwarves (no females with beard and much else) and music (no vinyl (and much else), OK of topic, but it had to be said).
My halflings are mostly based around a combination of Ed's Five Shires book ( from the old Known World Gazetteers ) and the complete book of Gnomes and Halflings from 2ed. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 21:25:18
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| Like Ed, I keep the (in general) hairy footed halfling. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 22:13:27
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| I like the older ones and think they are cuter. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 23:16:03
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To tell you the truth, halfling adventurers have always been the "roguish" types, so I haven't felt the 3.5 halfing paradigm shift quite as much in the Realms per se, especially given that Paul S Kemp, for example, has really portrayed them in the "traditional" sense in most of his novels.
The main problem I've had with 3.5 halfling portrayals has been the "Races of the Wild" information on them, which tries to make them nomadic con men (and women), and even tries to retcon Yondalla being a lawful good deity (please, please let no Realms designer/writer ever see fit to print "Dalla Thaun" anywhere in a Realms source).
Long story short, halfings in my campaigns still have hairy feet and tend to be "respectable" halflings. |
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D-brane
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2007 : 23:22:45
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I play my halflings like kender . . . . though that is just because my campaigns are usually a mix of FR and DL material.
If I was playing strictly Realms, I'd be following Ed Greenwood's direction.
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"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." |
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lokilokust
Seeker
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2007 : 00:41:18
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'The main problem I've had with 3.5 halfling portrayals has been the "Races of the Wild" information on them, which tries to make them nomadic con men (and women), and even tries to retcon Yondalla being a lawful good deity (please, please let no Realms designer/writer ever see fit to print "Dalla Thaun" anywhere in a Realms source).'
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oh, i wholeheartedly agree!
i finally got that book yesterday and my reaction varied from bewilderment to utter disappointment. |
yrs. in exile,
-s.j. bagley |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2007 : 01:25:05
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I changed my halflings from the hobbit-look to the slender booted ones. Reluctantly at first, but after seeing all three LotR movies, not so anymore. The 2nd edition 'hobbit-halflings' were, let's say it, a joke, and most players played them for comic relief.
Not so anymore. Game-mechanics-wise, they make insanely deadly rogues, scouts and ninjas (I even daresay rangers too, as there is one in my campaign, with the archery combat style, and oh boy!) The sheer amount of skill bonuses they get is amazing; add that to the save bonus, and ouch. The only thing they lack is low-light vision, but this can be overcome easily at mid-levels.
Moreso, the strongheart FR version is something to fear: they get the additional feat, like humans, at the cost of the +1 bonus to all saves.
The more I used halflings in my campaign, the more I saw myself drawn to the sleek, dangerous-looking version. I don't know exactly why, but they DO appeal to more of my players than the hobbit-looking version. Perhaps it's just the new game mechanics that make them appealing... who knows?
I can see halflings going barefoot in the country (i.e. Shire environment), but in the Realms, it makes little sense, especially since a majority of them dwell in urban human lands (i.e. I wouldn't go barefoot in Calimshan! eeeeuuuuuu!!!) One compromise would be to say that going barefoot is a 'Luirenian tradition', but not matter how thick your underfoot skin is, going barefoot in sewers, in a dungeon, in the hot sands of Anauroc or in the frozen lands of Icewind Dale makes VERY LITTLE sense... |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2007 : 01:29:20
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Addendum to last: I, too, wholeheartedly wish that the FR halfling pantheon remains as is. No matter what Races of the Wild says, it can be applied in a campaign without the need for alignment shift.
A bunch of badass Lawful Good halflings on patrol around Luiren can have all the equipment, feats, skills discussed in Races of the Wild... as much as the crazy Chondalwood-types are entitled to! Same thing for Corm Orp, Green Fields, etc. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2007 : 02:21:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
...going barefoot in sewers, in a dungeon, in the hot sands of Anauroc or in the frozen lands of Icewind Dale makes VERY LITTLE sense...
Very true.
Although for me, I don't think the way one looks needs to have anything to do with how badness they are (especially mechanically). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2007 : 04:09:42
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| the newer version of halfling appeals more to me than the 2E version that most of us grew with. I personally like the ghostwise sub-race. 3E in my opinion did a better job fleshing them out and taking away the hobbit-ish feel |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2007 : 08:12:15
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`That was always the problem in the first place - halfings got mixed up with hobbits (thanks to Gary Gygax!). To get the name and copyright problem fixed they changed the name of hobbits to halflings without changing the looks at all.
Now in the 3.x version they finaly movied away from the hobbit look but unfortunatelly now they seem to resemble kenders!
Maybe that is just the way it needs to be - halflings are hobbits are kenders....
I think to make the race more distinguishable (sp?) the designers of the FR products have done quite a good job. Now it is to the gamers to play halflings not like hobbits or kenders....
I don't know if all this makes any sense caue I kind of got lost during my rent. Appologies.... |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2007 : 13:10:45
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| I never understood why 3rd edition Forgotten Realms kept all the dwarf, elf, and gnome subraces from previous additions and added several more, but completely eliminated tallfellows and stouts from the setting in favour of strongheart and ghostwise. |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2007 : 15:19:56
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I've always thought of Halflings and Kender as distinctly different and I don't really see them being "similar" in 3rd ed (other than the obvious short and thin bit)
I've never thought of them as being hobbits, hobbits are LoTR and halflings are D&D, never even crossed my mind that they were too similar, just don't matter to me :)
Anyhow, I'm keeping ALL the halflings. I like the old school halflings, I grew up with them and they are halflings through and through to me. I also LOVED Darksun's take on halflings and the 3rd ed halflings have a decent amount of "Darksun halfling" feel to me. I find the distinction between the subraces of halflings to be almost exactly like that of the elves, Moon and Sun elves vs Wood and Wild elves = Tallfellow and stouts vs Ghostwise and the other "more feral" feeling halflings.
At least that's my current take on it, ask me again in a few months and I might have a different twist on it ;D |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2007 : 19:52:01
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I think the new lightfoot halflings which look like scaled-down elves are a cowardly way to glam halflings up, and I don't understand the thinking that making the whole race adventurous makes them more attractive as PCs.
Even if I liked them, Wizards would have no business retconning the Realms with core D&D elements just because they're new and 'core'. Real Realms halflings are hobbits except less definitely English, as described in GAZ8 The Five Shires. |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2007 : 20:37:16
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| They didn't just retcon the Realms by adding core D&D elements, they also retconned it by *removing* core D&D elements (stout halflings and tallfellow halflings) and by adding unique FR halflings. Of course, they also added unique FR subraces of dwarf and elf, though oddly enough they didn't add a unique FR subrace of gnome. Considering that in 2E FR dwarves already had five subraces, and elves had six, gnomes and halflings were the species most in need of more. I really don't see why we couldn't have had five halfling subraces in the Realms, especially since there now *eight* FR elf subraces |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 00:47:40
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| Also, in favor of the old look, look at it this way--one very effective tactic against an enemy is to appear "cute and harmless", causing your enemy to underestimate you. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Feb 2007 00:49:21 |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 02:12:54
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| I prefer the new. The old version was just too "Tolkien" |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 09:11:09
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
They didn't just retcon the Realms by adding core D&D elements, they also retconned it by *removing* core D&D elements (stout halflings and tallfellow halflings) and by adding unique FR halflings. Of course, they also added unique FR subraces of dwarf and elf, though oddly enough they didn't add a unique FR subrace of gnome. Considering that in 2E FR dwarves already had five subraces, and elves had six, gnomes and halflings were the species most in need of more. I really don't see why we couldn't have had five halfling subraces in the Realms, especially since there now *eight* FR elf subraces
Well, to me it is rather the opposite, I would rather have fewer sub-races and don't see the need to include more just to balance the races. Why would there be a need for another gnomish race? There wasn't even a need for the new elven sub-races in my opinion. Stuffing things into the realms just for "balance" and Coolness"or changing the established to make it "more up to date"removes all interior logic and continuity in the Realms with time.
Just the private opinions of a grumbler. |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 10:13:54
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
, especially since there now *eight* FR elf subraces
Sun, Moon, Wild, Wood, Star, Dark,.....which am I missing? Daemonfey?....
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 10:24:34
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| Sea and the Lythari (sp?) were the last, at least to my thinking. |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 10:30:38
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averials and sea i think he thinks of  |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 10:47:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Well, to me it is rather the opposite, I would rather have fewer sub-races and don't see the need to include more just to balance the races. Why would there be a need for another gnomish race? There wasn't even a need for the new elven sub-races in my opinion. Stuffing things into the realms just for "balance" and Coolness"or changing the established to make it "more up to date"removes all interior logic and continuity in the Realms with time.
Just the private opinions of a grumbler.
I'm speaking from the perspective of lore, not "balance" or "coolness". For absolutely all Forgotten Realms gnomes be identical to gnomes everwhere else in the D&D multiverse makes very little sense. Although AFAIK it has never been specifically stated whether gnomes evolved on Faerun or arrived there from elsewhere as with elves and dwarfs*, we do know that gnomes have resided in the Realms for at least 5,000 years, since the Netherese began to enslave them in -3649 DR. Given the 'fast evolution' that's present in the Realms, five millenia is plenty of time for at least one unique subrace to appear. In fact, given that the Netherese liked their magical experimentation *a lot*, an offshoot of gnomes altered by Netherese magic doesn't exactly fall outside the realms of probability.
The introduction of a new subrace doesn't have to remove any logic or ignore established continuity at all. For example, from what few snippets of info on the gnome realm of Songfarla we've been given we know that rock gnomes and svirfneblin live there, but there has never been any source that states *only* these two subraces live there. A new gnome subrace unique to that area would therefore not contradict established lore in any way. A new subrace of gnome akin to Dragonlance's tinker gnomes could also quite easily be added to Lantan without overriding anything that has been previously said regarding the island.
EDIT: Essentially, a new subrace doesn't have to be a group that supposedly lives all over the Realms but we've simply never heard of them before (as with planetouched humans and wild elves), they could simply come from one specific area that has seen little or no mention in previously published material (as with ghostwise halflings, star elves, and urdunnir).
* AFAIK it's also never been said whether halflings evolved in the Realms either, though we do not the d'jen of Calimshan brought both human and halfling slaves with them around -7,800 DR. It's quite possible that most modern day halflings of the Realms are descended from the halflings of Calimshan (I say most, because there will of couse be a tiny fraction of halflings descended from emmigrants from elsewhere).
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
Sun, Moon, Wild, Wood, Star, Dark,.....which am I missing? Daemonfey?....
I actually miscounted; there are in fact *nine* elf subraces: aquatic, avariel, dark/drow, lythari, moon, star, sun, wild, and wood.
I suppose you could also count both daemonfey and celadrins as elf subraces, in which case there are eleven  .
EDIT: oh, and there's also a unique Maztican elven subrace, but AFAIK it hasn't even been given a name, let alone explored in detail. And of course, some people also place ghost elves and/or snow elves in Faerūn. |
Edited by - nbnmare on 16 Feb 2007 11:40:42 |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 11:15:45
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Bah of course, sea elves, can't believe I forgot them  , oh and the Avariel.
Do the Lythari count as elves or shapeshifters?- |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 11:36:14
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
I'm speaking from the perspective of lore, not "balance" or "coolness". For all Forgotten Realms gnomes be identical to gnomes everwhere else in the D&D multiverse makes little sense. Although AFAIK it has never been specifically stated whether gnomes evolved on Faerun or arrived there from elsewhere as with elves and dwares, we do know that gnomes have resided in the Realms for at least 5,000 years, since the Netherese began to enslave them in -3649 DR. Given the 'fast evolution' that's present in the Realms, five millenia is plenty of time for at least one unique subrace to appear. In fact, the Netherese obviously liked their magical experimentation, so an offshoot of gnomes altered by Netherese magic doesn't exactly fall outside the realms of improbability.
The introduction of a new subrace doesn't have to remove any logic or ignore established continuity at all. From what few snippets of info on the gnome realm of Songfarla we have, we know that rock gnomes and svirfneblin live there, but there has never been any source that states *only* these two subraces live there. A new gnome subrace unique to that area would therefore not contradict established lore in any way. A new subrace of gnome akin to Dragonlance's tinker gnomes could also quite easily be added to Lantan without overriding anything that has been previously said regarding the island.
Sorry for the somewhat grumpy tone of my first post. Now, the thing is, that in my opinion the differences would be cultural, not racial. There's no need to give humans a third leg just to sett them apart from humans in other worlds. The gnomes and halflings of the realms has had so little attention that they could just as well just have established the cultures of these races to a farther degree. Why introduce something new when you have not fully developed the old? I have the same problem with the star elves and wood elves, these could have been cultural variations. The dwarven sub-races, living in very different areas I have no problem with, the conditions would make these changes logical. The gnomes of Lanthan would not need more than a strong cultural dedication to Gond; why make them a sub race?
PS I could be wrong, but were not the Deep gnomes originally a Realms race? In that case there is already a pure Realmsian gnome. |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 12:08:00
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If are speaking purely from the perspective of lore, a different culture is in fact one of the most important factors to consider when differentiating subraces.
If we are to venture into the realm of stats, the standard racial abilities of the gnome make little sense for the gnomes of Lantan. They would have little or no exposure to giants, goblins, or kobolds, so why would they receive special training to fight them? I would give them bonuses versus golems and other constructs instead. Of the standard gnome's innate abilities, only prestigation would be of much use to the typical gnome of Lantan; I would replace speak with animals with unseen servant, dancing lights with light, and ghost sound with mage hand. I would also replace their +2 bonus to Listen with a +2 bonus to Appraise, and allow them to have a +2 bonus to any one Craft skill of their choice, rather than only Craft (alchemy).
As for deep gnomes, they were present in the 2nd Edition Monstrous Manual, and no mention was made of them coming from the Realms; in contrast, tinker gnomes were also present in that book, but it was specifically stated that they originated from Krynn. It could be that they were Realms specific way back in 1st Edition, but you'd have to ask someone with access to 1E sourcebooks to be sure . |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 14:36:32
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One of the things that I've always found disconserting about halflings is their comparative strength. I don't care how many pushups a 3 ft. tall midget does, odds are in most cases he's not going to stand a chance against brawny human twice his size. For one thing, his is reach is only going to be half as much due to the short arm length. In terms of basic physics, a creature this size simply would not possess enough muscle and overall body mass to stand toe-to-toe with a human sized creature. Yet in many cases you'll find a halflings that are just as strong--or stonger--than a human.
I know the halfling excels at darting about and confusing the opponent, which is fine--it's the only thing that does make sense with respect to the hin having a prayer in melee.
As far as I'm concerned the racial ability score adjustment of -2 Strength is too little. It results in them often being just as strong as creatures twice their size, in light of the point buy system. I would prefer to see the strongest among the hin comparable to an average human (you'd never see anything above 12 Str, let's say), but with dexterity that is roughly one standard deviation higher than your typical human. (Not sure what that mathematically works out to be.)
I know its fantasy to begin with, and a game, etc., but I think this is one of those aspects of the gaming experience start to break the bubble if you reflect on it. The world need only make sense within its own internal logic, but it seems to work best if it remains rooted in things we can all easily relate to in real life. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 19:33:58
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
If are speaking purely from the perspective of lore, a different culture is in fact one of the most important factors to consider when differentiating subraces.
If we are to venture into the realm of stats, the standard racial abilities of the gnome make little sense for the gnomes of Lantan. They would have little or no exposure to giants, goblins, or kobolds, so why would they receive special training to fight them? I would give them bonuses versus golems and other constructs instead. Of the standard gnome's innate abilities, only prestigation would be of much use to the typical gnome of Lantan; I would replace speak with animals with unseen servant, dancing lights with light, and ghost sound with mage hand. I would also replace their +2 bonus to Listen with a +2 bonus to Appraise, and allow them to have a +2 bonus to any one Craft skill of their choice, rather than only Craft (alchemy).
As for deep gnomes, they were present in the 2nd Edition Monstrous Manual, and no mention was made of them coming from the Realms; in contrast, tinker gnomes were also present in that book, but it was specifically stated that they originated from Krynn. It could be that they were Realms specific way back in 1st Edition, but you'd have to ask someone with access to 1E sourcebooks to be sure .
I can well see the changes you propose being both fair and logical, but that should rather be built as a prestige class of some sort in my opinion (I could be wrong, I play 2ed.). If a rock gnome lived on Lantan he should have the same modifications and if a lanthanese gnome moved to the gnomes of Trielta he would take on their culture, in my opinion.
As for the Deep Gnome, I remember that it came as a loose compendium sheet, either in the 2ed. campaign setting or the appendix, I don't remember which. It could have turned up earlier in another product though. |
Edited by - Jorkens on 16 Feb 2007 20:09:47 |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 20:08:01
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| Eh no, it's perfectly in line with the official 3E/3.5E subraces, as seen in Monster Manual 1, Races of Faerūn, and the like. If any Lantanese gnome were to take a prestige class, I can think of none more suitable than Faith & Pantheons' Techsmith (which, incidentally, seems to complement my proposed Lantense gnome stats very well indeed). |
Edited by - nbnmare on 16 Feb 2007 20:12:49 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 09:01:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Like Ed, I keep the (in general) hairy footed halfling.
That's the same for me as well.
Unless it'll conflict with something I've already established in my campaigns... my halflings are always of the hairy footed kind.
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running haflings in the realms... old vs. new.
