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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 17:09:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
PS I could be wrong, but were not the Deep gnomes originally a Realms race?
No, they first appeared in D2 Shrine of the Kuo-Toa. They probably became part of the Realms very soon after then.quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
It could be that they were Realms specific way back in 1st Edition, but you'd have to ask someone with access to 1E sourcebooks to be sure  .
Tinker gnomes are a uniquely Dragonlance idea.quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I can well see the changes you propose being both fair and logical, but that should rather be built as a prestige class of some sort in my opinion (I could be wrong, I play 2ed.).
That would mean that only certain mid- and high-level gnomes reflected their culture! |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 17:18:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer]Tinker gnomes are a uniquely Dragonlance idea.
I was referring to deep gnomes/svirfneblin . |
Edited by - nbnmare on 17 Feb 2007 17:19:58 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 17:35:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
PS I could be wrong, but were not the Deep gnomes originally a Realms race?
No, they first appeared in D2 Shrine of the Kuo-Toa. They probably became part of the Realms very soon after then.quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
It could be that they were Realms specific way back in 1st Edition, but you'd have to ask someone with access to 1E sourcebooks to be sure .
Tinker gnomes are a uniquely Dragonlance idea.quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I can well see the changes you propose being both fair and logical, but that should rather be built as a prestige class of some sort in my opinion (I could be wrong, I play 2ed.).
That would mean that only certain mid- and high-level gnomes reflected their culture!
As I said, my knowledge of prestige-classes is limited. My point is that the uniqueness of Lantan gnomes should be based on skills and culture, not upon sub-race.
As for the Deep gnomes; that explains it. I just remembered that the 2ed. version came in a Realms-specific product, but they were not mentioned in the Grey box; I have been wondering about that one. Thanks |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2007 : 23:11:51
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| But the thing is, a great deal of subraces (possibly even the majority) are based on skills and culture. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 00:34:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
PS I could be wrong, but were not the Deep gnomes originally a Realms race?
No, they first appeared in D2 Shrine of the Kuo-Toa. They probably became part of the Realms very soon after then.quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
It could be that they were Realms specific way back in 1st Edition, but you'd have to ask someone with access to 1E sourcebooks to be sure .
Tinker gnomes are a uniquely Dragonlance idea.quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I can well see the changes you propose being both fair and logical, but that should rather be built as a prestige class of some sort in my opinion (I could be wrong, I play 2ed.).
That would mean that only certain mid- and high-level gnomes reflected their culture!
As I said, my knowledge of prestige-classes is limited. My point is that the uniqueness of Lantan gnomes should be based on skills and culture, not upon sub-race.
Essentially, the tinker-like aspect of the gnomes were the result of TSR bringing the concept of the tinker gnomes into the Realms, and also largely because Gond appeared (in the form of a gnome) on the island during the Time of Troubles.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 01:07:28
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| Although, to be fair, even "tinker" FR gnomes tend to be actually competant . . . more like gnomoi gnomes from Taladas than the traditional tinker gnomes . . . they may think big and come up with grandiose ideas, but often times they do work. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 01:17:12
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While I'm thinking about it, the Green Ronin d20 book Advanced Player's Manual has some options for "building" your class abilities, so that not every dwarf, elf, halfing, or gnome has the same racial abilities. All of the abilities that you can buy are things that make sense for the race, but they aren't the exact same for all of them (which kind of makes sense . . . while halflings, for example, likely all have a lot in common, there should be some wiggle room).
If you take a bunch of options, moreso than you usually have from the PH or from whatever source you want to use, you can opt to take a LA to gain a few more race specific abilities. So for example you could take a level adjustment and be considered "fey" with all of the immunities and the like that come with it, for example.
Another thing that they do is that you can take a different "set" of ability modifiers, and which ability modifiers you take determines what your favored class is, so that there isn't "one" favored class so much as "halfings that have these abilities tend to be this," which works well for contrasting halfings from a pastoral setting and those that take off to assume the role of a rogue and adventurer. (For example, a dwarf that takes the +2 Con, -2 Int option instead of the standard has barbarian as favored class instead of fighter)
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Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 18 Feb 2007 02:48:01 |
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lokilokust
Seeker
USA
61 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 04:38:49
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'the Green Ronin d20 book Advanced Player's Manual'
how is that?
worth looking into? |
yrs. in exile,
-s.j. bagley |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 05:30:36
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Its a mixed bag . . . didn't care much for the new classes in it, or the luck ability score, but then again, its designed to use bits an pieces of it. I liked the alignment value system, as its kind of an interesting way to keep track of alignment, and I kind of like the "building a race" feature of the book, but I would say this about it . . . don't let the player's build a race when they make their characters, as its too easy to "save" points for a custom racial build. For example, if you have an elf ranger, there is no reason in a "custom" build to spend the "racial points" on martial weapon proficiencies, which ends up making the elf a bit more powerful as they can take things like faster movement rates and trackless step, etc.
The racial builds are cool for a DM that wants even the sub races to have regional differences, however. For example, you could build a Nimbral moon elf that gets bonuses to illusions like a gnome does, as long as you are willing to give up something else from the elf abilities, or are willing to take a level adjustment.
Some of the new spells are interesting, but a lot of them tie into the new classes in the book, which just didn't work for me.
Of the Advanced Player's Manual, Advanced Gamemaster's Guide, or the Advanced Bestiary, the Bestiary is the best one of the Green Ronin "advanced" series, at least in my opinion (monster book but everything in it is a template). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 05:42:11
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Essentially, the tinker-like aspect of the gnomes were the result of TSR bringing the concept of the tinker gnomes into the Realms, and also largely because Gond appeared (in the form of a gnome) on the island during the Time of Troubles.
Even with that, I've never thought of any of the gnomes of the Realms being like Krynn's tinker gnomes. A love of technology does not a tinker gnome make. For me, the defining characteristic of a tinker gnome isn't their inventiveness -- it's their lack of anything approaching common sense. I've not seen that in any of Toril's gnomes, so I've never thought of them as tinker gnomes. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 06:54:11
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Perhaps.
As I see it... it is *because* of this tinker-gnome like aspect pervading Lantan that many people seem to forget that the island itself still has a notable human presence.
Just look at the problems discussed about some of the FR Wiki entries from a while back -- and them classifying Lantan as a purely "gnomish realm."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 18 Feb 2007 06:55:14 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 22:31:53
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Personally I use 'em all, the old and the new subraces, along with a few real kender from 'elsewhere'.
You can have your cake and eat it too, the old races are the stay-at-home types that have already seen it all and just want to die old and fat in their beds. The new races are for PC's, they are the adventurous 'youngbloods' that just want to get out and see the world. After a time, they start to get a little flabby and their feet start getting hairy and they know its time to pack-it-in and retire.
Remember the differences between Bilbo and frodo? Same thing; it's just a changing of the gaurd, so to speak.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I stick with the three old species of halflings, the newer versions don't tempt me one bit. The same goes for changes done to gnomes (smaller noses and much else), dwarves (no females with beard and much else) and music (no vinyl (and much else), OK of topic, but it had to be said).
My halflings are mostly based around a combination of Ed's Five Shires book ( from the old Known World Gazetteers ) and the complete book of Gnomes and Halflings from 2ed.
If you want to go all 'old school' then I prefer the demi-humans as CLASSES, not races.
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
Sun, Moon, Wild, Wood, Star, Dark,.....which am I missing? Daemonfey?....
Besides the Lythari, Sea, and Avariel? There is a race of desert Elves living in the Raurin mentioned in the Imaskar novel, a race of Plains Elves mentioned in City of Gold living over in Maztica/Anchorome, and supposedly a race of Snow Elves that got a brief mention on pg.14 of Dragon #236.
Oh, and then their are the Marels.... 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Feb 2007 22:37:26 |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 05:01:01
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| Heh, I completely forgot about those desert elves. Bruce Cordell really does like his new subraces, doesnt he? |
Edited by - nbnmare on 19 Feb 2007 05:01:22 |
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running haflings in the realms... old vs. new.
