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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jan 2007 : 03:17:32
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I was reading the adventure log of an online game and came across a DM's explanation that the elvish numerical system is base 12 instead of our base 10. Is this cannon?
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2007 : 05:17:14
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Based on the Thorass information chronicled in each edition of the FRCS, it is unlikely that elves are a Sexagesimal society.
You might note that Sexagesimal refers to a base of sixty, and that your question is in reference to a system based upon the number twelve.
For ease of calculation, those that utilize Sexagesimal notation often break things down into twelve, which, of course, is a factor of sixty. The most classic example of this is our clock. It is comprised of a base sixty minutes, but is sectored into twelve sections.
There are compelling arguments that proclaim that a sexigesimal system is inherently more useful and efficient than a decimal system, and so from a elf-centric standpoint, if you believe that elves are inherently more intellectual and advanced, it is possible that they utilize sexigesimal notation.
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*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2007 : 07:07:33
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| i would really like to see those arguments Walker ... IMO it is a load of '..' to say that the sexigesimal notation system is more useful and efficient than a decimal notation system (and even less than a binary notation system) ... it all comes down to what we have learned to see as the 'normal' |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
Edited by - Sian on 31 Jan 2007 07:08:12 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2007 : 07:35:43
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| What do you know!? I havn't even HEARD of this sex-thing until now. Tststs. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2007 : 11:10:33
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| I don't see any race developing a numeric system based on a number larger than the number of digits on their hands. |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2007 : 11:43:34
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So the gelatinous cubes work in base 0? No wonder they're always so upset  |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2007 : 13:13:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see any race developing a numeric system based on a number larger than the number of digits on their hands.
It's possible that some societies would have base twenty counting by including digits on hands and feet.
Wikipedia has an entry on base 20.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigesimal |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2007 : 13:17:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see any race developing a numeric system based on a number larger than the number of digits on their hands.
It's possible that some societies would have base twenty counting by including digits on hands and feet.
Wikipedia has an entry on base 20.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigesimal
I can't site a source, just right now K, but the Sumerians (who were a sexigesimal people) counted each of the digits on their four fingers to come to twelve. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2007 : 13:24:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Sian
i would really like to see those arguments Walker ... IMO it is a load of '..' to say that the sexigesimal notation system is more useful and efficient than a decimal notation system (and even less than a binary notation system) ... it all comes down to what we have learned to see as the 'normal'
After consulting wiser mathemeticians than myself...
Beyond this endorsement, I won't debate this matter any further, I was just contributing my knowledge of numbering systems based upon 12.
quote:
The reason for the usefulness of the quantity of 12-ness INDEPENDENT of the
base you are working in, is to do with the number of factors the number
possesses.
10 can only be factored by 2 and 5
12 can be factored by 2, 3,4 and 6.
The bigger the number used in your base system the more compact your number
representation. It is common in computer engineering to use hexadecimal
notation, where you count from 0-15 as 0,1..9,A,B,C,D,E,F. Binary groups of
4 digits (nibbles) are represented by a single hex digit. and a byte of 8
bits by 2 digits.so 140 (10) is 8C (hex) A lot less trouble than writing
10001100, and a lot less prone to error !
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*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2007 : 17:31:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see any race developing a numeric system based on a number larger than the number of digits on their hands.
It's possible that some societies would have base twenty counting by including digits on hands and feet.
Wikipedia has an entry on base 20.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vigesimal
the aztecs had a numeral system with base 20 if i remember right |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2007 : 17:40:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Sian
the aztecs had a numeral system with base 20 if i remember right
They and the Mayans did. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Calrond
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2007 : 22:02:53
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| Interesting, a base-20 system. Also gives you some insight into the fact that they probably went barefoot or wore open-toed shoes most of the time, even if you knew nothing else about their culture. You wouldn't have a number system that included toes if you had to keep pulling your shoes off to count. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2007 : 23:37:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Sian
the aztecs had a numeral system with base 20 if i remember right
They and the Mayans did.
The Mayans tended toward a base 5 numbering system also.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2007 : 00:10:01
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| Anyway, I find the whole "elves are better and more efficient than humans in pretty much every aspect of life" concept to be tiresome, so I'm not in favor of anything that relies on that idea. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 01 Feb 2007 00:10:36 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2007 : 07:08:51
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I'm not sure about elves, but I could see myself giving some of the older human cultures a different base number system. The one I think of immidiately would be Imaskar. Maybe their magic isn't that hard to master, it's just that they used base 12 and everyone else uses base 10, and so all the modern magical calculations are wrong.
On the other hand, trying to figure out exactly how systems other than base 10 work made my brain ache, so I might not do it. But it's an interesting concept.
If you really want it to be elven, how's this for an idea: it orginated with sea elves (since they're swimming around naked), and they shared it with their surface cousins. This happened long enough ago (First Flowering? Crown Wars?) that it's now filtered down to all elves now use the system. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2007 : 09:22:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
On the other hand, trying to figure out exactly how systems other than base 10 work made my brain ache, so I might not do it. But it's an interesting concept.
I invented a base 14 counting system once. It does take a little practice to stop your brain thinking in base 10 but you can do it after a while.
I like the idea that Imaskar might have had a different base. To return to Walkerninja's comments about base 60, would Unther be such a society? |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2007 : 13:07:20
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| Since Unther is sort of directly based on Sumer/Babylonia, I would tend to believe so. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2007 : 13:35:59
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
Since Unther is sort of directly based on Sumer/Babylonia, I would tend to believe so.
Hence the suggestion. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2007 : 14:24:59
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| I'm still trying to figure out what the benefit(s) of going with a variant numerical system would be in the greater game picture. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2007 : 15:15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Varl
I'm still trying to figure out what the benefit(s) of going with a variant numerical system would be in the greater game picture.
I would say the main benefit would be verisimilitude and world building. One way of using this from a game angle would be to give the players the number 23 (which is 35 in base 10) but not saying that it is in base 16. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2007 : 19:48:00
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Not sure if I should bother, usually all my ideas are rejected, but...
there is some merit to the Elves having a base twelve, and it does work well with some concepts I've been working on.
Suffice it to say that when Elves are ruled by a council, it IS a council of twelve. That is canon.
Perhaps they hold some ancient significance to the number '12'?
Not sure, but I believe the council that ruled Evermeet before Amlaruil and Zoar was composed of six Gold Elves and six Silver, but I could be wrong on that count. I know the council had twelve members though.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Feb 2007 19:48:34 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4692 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2007 : 20:13:44
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It is an interesting discussion, however 12 months in real world did not lead to a base 12 number system that I am aware of. Having 12 members of a council, in itself, should not lead to use of base 12.
As for 23 = 35 any one that learns a language and related math would know that written text in common vs. elven that the numbers need to be convertered. Even spoken elven laungage would not say one (instread use the elven transaltion). That is is one does not understand both languages they can not be confused by a different way of counting, at least in my opinion. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2007 : 20:28:05
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| The Basque people in Northern Spain used a "Base 7" numerical system... I just thought I would throw that in, if I think about it too long I get a headache... Using a base seven system would provide very unique flavor for an ancient Realms culture... Raumathar anyone? |
ShadowJack |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2007 : 22:22:14
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| Many cultures have numbers that are "special" and represent something to them, but that doesn't mean that they'll base their numerical system on said numbers. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Dreamstalker
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2007 : 23:10:05
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| I still enjoy the idea of uniqueness this gives to associate different races or cultures within a race a base numerical system other than the common decimal system. Personally I wouldn't require any calculations in the system, just reference the difference and roleplay difficulties. The players and myself would still say twleve even though the number would be written as 10. Just some thoughts. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2007 : 23:16:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Dreamstalker
I still enjoy the idea of uniqueness this gives to associate different races or cultures within a race a base numerical system other than the common decimal system. Personally I wouldn't require any calculations in the system, just reference the difference and roleplay difficulties. The players and myself would still say twleve even though the number would be written as 10. Just some thoughts.
Not a bad idea, except that it might be too easy to forget to say "twelve". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2007 : 03:55:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Not a bad idea, except that it might be too easy to forget to say "twelve".
Especially when rolling dice, was that an Elvish D10, or a human D12?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Elvish numerical system - base 12?
