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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 22:39:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
unless the celestial stairways and infinite staircase are still there and can be used. If not, well how could Waukeen be freed?
Sigil, the World Ash, the Staircase, the River of Blood, and the Shadow Plane can all take you to the other cosmologies and around FR's cosmology. Adding those pathways defeated the purpose of changing FR planes in 3e, since the game designers who changed the planes said they wanted to to remove FR totally from the other cosmologies. So, FR's planes basically have returned to the old cosmology because WOTC continues to add in the planes and pathways from the old cosmology. Lisa added the Outlands back to FR's cosmology in her 3e psionic trilogy. Eric has added the Far Realm and the Plane of Mirrors, etc. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 09 Jan 2007 22:43:00 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 22:42:07
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quote:
Sigil, the World Ash, the Staircase, the River of Blood, and the Shadow Plane can all take you to the other cosmologies. Which defeats the purpose of changing the FR planes in 3e, since the game designers who changed the planes said they wanted to to remove FR totally from the other cosmologies. So, FR's planes basically have returned to the old cosmology because WOTC continues to add in the planes and pathways from the old cosmology.
I think they add to the Realms by essentially making them more self contained and less dependent on other realities. In Planescape, Shar is the goddess of a bunch of clueless Berks on the Prime that doesn't have any importance one Crystal Sphere over.
In the Great Tree, Shar is a primordial evil and just one step below GOD (Ao)
Even if you can go to a parallel universe, that doesn't change that Bane is the greatest Master of all Darkness in this universe. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 22:45:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I think they add to the Realms by essentially making them more self contained and less dependent on other realities. In Planescape, Shar is the goddess of a bunch of clueless Berks on the Prime that doesn't have any importance one Crystal Sphere over.
In the Great Tree, Shar is a primordial evil and just one step below GOD (Ao)
Even if you can go to a parallel universe, that doesn't change that Bane is the greatest Master of all Darkness in this universe.
None of this couldn't be handled in the old cosmology. That's why we had crystal spheres. In FR's sphere, Shar is the master of all darkness and the single sphere FR deities rule their sphere, just like every single sphereic deities rule their spheres.
Oh, and if anyone is a step below Ao, it's Mystra and Chauntea. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 22:46:22
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| The change was redundant...*sigh* I never got the reason, or lack thereof, anyway |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 22:47:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
The change was redundant...*sigh* I never got the reason, or lack thereof, anyway
Neither have most of us. :) Especially when WOTC continues to make FR's oh so different cosmology a carbon copy of the cosmology FR had for 2 editions. Oh, that's right, now it's shaped like a tree instead. Sigh.
And me, I dislike having 4 or more astrals connected to the same world. Each continent has their own astral that doesn't interact with any of the other astrals. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 09 Jan 2007 22:49:33 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 22:48:20
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With all due respect Kuje, it's not the same and in fact helps reinforce Shar's unimportance.
Not only isn't Shar an important goddess on the Prime but she's only important on a single planetoid in the Prime.
I thought that further degraded the importance of the characters.
Deities shouldn't share their planes but have absolute dominion over them unless they're part of a pantheon. I felt that the Great Tree adds to the richness and power of the gods all round by making them no longer so small by comparison.
I miss the loss of Sigil but I feel we've gained a more coherent cosmology.
Of course, I've been known to go against the grain on these boards. I dislike the fact that Kara-Tur has a different cosmology than Faerun. I appreciated the fact that Al-Quadim allowed you to insert Shar and other gods into the ranks of the worshipper's pantheons.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 09 Jan 2007 22:49:42 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 22:48:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
The change was redundant...*sigh* I never got the reason, or lack thereof, anyway
Neither have most of us. :)
Hoodyhoo...I don't feel so alone  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 22:50:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
The change was redundant...*sigh* I never got the reason, or lack thereof, anyway
Neither have most of us. :)
Hoodyhoo...I don't feel so alone
Well I never liked the Great Wheel but I do admit that I feel that the Great Tree was extremely underdeveloped and we could have gotten an explanation for it or at the very least, a rewritten cosmology so all the old supplements don't seem so strange.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 22:56:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
With all due respect Kuje, it's not the same and in fact helps reinforce Shar's unimportance.
Not only isn't Shar an important goddess on the Prime but she's only important on a single planetoid in the Prime.
I thought that further degraded the importance of the characters.
Deities shouldn't share their planes but have absolute dominion over them unless they're part of a pantheon. I felt that the Great Tree adds to the richness and power of the gods all round by making them no longer so small by comparison.
I miss the loss of Sigil but I feel we've gained a more coherent cosmology.
Of course, I've been known to go against the grain on these boards. I dislike the fact that Kara-Tur has a different cosmology than Faerun. I appreciated the fact that Al-Quadim allowed you to insert Shar and other gods into the ranks of the worshipper's pantheons.
Says you. Makes perfect sense to me and it's still no different then how the current cosmology is set up. Shar doesn't have absolute power in the planes or even in FR's Prime. None of the deities do. Only Mystra does over the plane that she resides on and she is the ONLY deity, that we know of, that has that power.
So what that many of the FR deities are only important to FR? Actually, using the old cosmology, they didn't have to be restricted to FR, but now they do because if Mystra goes to a different cosmology, it's not the same Mystra since there are no deities that can be on other crystal spheres. I.E. Lolth of FR is ONLY for FR. The Greyhawk Lolth is not connected to her, is not her, etc. They only share the name, unlike in the old 1e and 2e cosmologies. So, if a FR deity goes to Greyhawk, they form a totally seperate and different deity then the FR version and neither version interacts. They only share the name.
The deities in the new planes don't have absolute power over their planes. They only still have absolute power over their planar realms. Mystra is the exception, as I said. Shar DOES NOT rule the Shadow Plane with absolute power.
Why do you miss Sigil? It still exists in the current cosmology. Richard Baker has said as much and Faiths & Pantheons shows us there is a portal to Sigil.
If WOTC gives us an in game reason for the change, most of us would stop these arguments. They haven't though. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 09 Jan 2007 23:02:35 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:01:40
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Kuje I don't get your meaning. Perhaps because I'm not thinking D&D but in science fiction.
I presume Selune and Shar are the gods of the entire FR Prime Material Plane. That potentially gives them the power over thousands of worlds we don't know about. Take Lolth in Evereet the novel. The Lolth of the FR Prime Material Plane isn't the one in Greyhawk, but that doesn't mean FR Lolth isn't goddess over a million million worlds.
The CAMPAIGN settings are divided but there's nothing keeping you from running Spelljammer in the FR cosmos.
I may be misunderstanding the new set up though, if so then please correct me.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 09 Jan 2007 23:02:39 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:05:19
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He was tryinig to correct you...and no there is only the FR, no other worlds, each one has its own little microcosm...and if we take your approach who is to say that Greyhawk is not in the realms cosmos???
Your argument becomes redundant all by its glorious self. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:06:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Kuje I don't get your meaning. Perhaps because I'm not thinking D&D but in science fiction.
I presume Selune and Shar are the gods of the entire FR Prime Material Plane. That potentially gives them the power over thousands of worlds we don't know about. Take Lolth in Evereet the novel. The Lolth of the FR Prime Material Plane isn't the one in Greyhawk, but that doesn't mean FR Lolth isn't goddess over a million million worlds.
The CAMPAIGN settings are divided but there's nothing keeping you from running Spelljammer in the FR cosmos.
I may be misunderstanding the new set up though, if so then please correct me.
We have no canon lore that says there are any other solar systems except for the one that Toril is a part of. So, to say that FR's Material Plane has more solar systems is an assumption based on no facts (I.E, canon lore) to support it. This is why I asked this question to Ed and why I'm waiting for his reply.
So, to say the FR deities are known outside of Toril's solar system is a false statement unless you have canon facts to back it up. And if you find some, please share because me and Sage have trolled through every FR sourcebook and novel and Dungeon/Dragon and web content and neither of us have yet to find any such statement. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 09 Jan 2007 23:10:00 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:07:25
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Well, by that I stand corrected.
But even if Greyhawk is in the Forgotten Realms universe, that wouldn't change that the Great Wheel isn't there. What I basically am just saying is I don't think the gods should be sharing planes. I like how they have their own little individual Heavens as opposed to worlds drastically different from them.
I mean why would a Chinese God live on Mount Celestia when he can have Chinese Heavenland?
I hope my meaning is coming through. The Tree allows more diversity.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:10:53
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| Also, remember that in Faerun the word "god" doesn't denote an all-powerful (or even primordial) being, so why exactly should any god rule over an entire plane? It's the same way even in some real-world religions. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 09 Jan 2007 23:18:45 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:10:54
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quote:
So, to say the FR deities are known outside of Toril's solar system is a false statement unless you have canon facts to back it up. And if you find some, please share because me and Sage have trolled through every FR sourcebook and novel and Dungeon/Dragon and web content and have yet to find any such statement.
I anxiously await Ed's response to your question.
We know that Toril is connected to other worlds though because the fact that the Orc Invasion comes from another world, the Mulhorandi, and the previous Spelljammer ties. I never assumed that it was retconned out. If it was then I can understand why you'd be upset.
As for other FR gods are we restricting it to FR-only gods like Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, etc? Bane was, until recently, worshipped in Ravenloft after all. I also point out that The Moonshae Trilogy says that Bhaal was worshipped on several worlds I'm pretty sure so I don't believe that you're right there.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:13:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The Tree allows more diversity.
Semi-false statement. What you should say is "I believe the Tree allows more diversity."
However, I could say the same thing about the Wheel/Ring. This is also why deities had/have their own planar realms on the planes. Why shouldn't the other deities reside within the same planes? It's not like they don't have their own planar realms on those planes. This is no different then FR current cosmology, which is why Shar does not rule over all of the Shadow. Again, Mystra being the exception. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:13:15
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| The tree screws up everything that has been established before... and diversity? Whiskey tango foxtrot... having planes where all deities have their own little place for them and their followers is um...un-diverse? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:16:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
We know that Toril is connected to other worlds though because the fact that the Orc Invasion comes from another world, the Mulhorandi, and the previous Spelljammer ties. I never assumed that it was retconned out. If it was then I can understand why you'd be upset.
As for other FR gods are we restricting it to FR-only gods like Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, etc? Bane was, until recently, worshipped in Ravenloft after all. I also point out that The Moonshae Trilogy says that Bhaal was worshipped on several worlds I'm pretty sure so I don't believe that you're right there.
No,
What the material now says is that the orcs were brought from a different Material Plane, which means it's no where within FR's Material Plane. Just like Greyhawk has it's different and seperate Material Plane, as does Dragonlance, etc.
Yes, all deities in FR are, as I said above, only FR deities now. Tyr, for example, is a Tyr of FR. The Tyr of the Norse is a totally different being except in name only. There are no multi-sphereic deities any more. All deities are now only single-sphereic.
Moonshae trilogy was before they retconned in the new cosmology, so the material in that novel is wrong. This is no different then how TSR and WOTC changed the Earthmother from being a seperate deity to being a part of Chauntea. According to later TSR and WOTC material, the Earthmother has ALWAYS been an aspect of Chauntea and never a seperate deity. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 09 Jan 2007 23:18:34 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:17:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The Tree allows more diversity.
Semi-false statement. What you should say is "I believe the Tree allows more diversity."
To be fair, I do think it's obvious that CP's statement was just an opinion.
I prefer the old system myself, but hey--different strokes for different folks. We all like what we like, and that's OK. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:19:07
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quote:
Semi-false statement. What you should say is "I believe the Tree allows more diversity."
Yes, I do. I believe I'm correct too. Just as you do.
quote:
However, I could say the same thing about the Wheel/Ring. This is also why deities had/have their own planar realms on the planes. Why shouldn't the other deities reside within the same planes? It's not like they don't have their own planar realms on those planes. This is no different then FR current cosmology, which is why Shar does not rule over all of the Shadow. Again, Mystra being the exception.
The Planar Realm thing is unnecessarily complex though (in my opinion). Why have them as part of Mount Celestia and other Planes at all if you're going to use them?
It makes sense if you have deities rule over an entire layer like Bane the Dark Lord of the Ninth and Lowest Circle of Hell but let's not forget that Ed Greenwood had Bane kicking around Asmodeus when he first wrote the articles detailing the Nine Hells....even if he did allow for other deities like Set to inhabit it.
I doubt I'm going to convince you to my point of view. However, I wouldn't mind asking what you think has been lost though. What I enjoy most about the Great Tree is that it seems to allow for infinite expansion. Need a new plane of existence, just add a new deity. The Great Wheel seemed to be restricted to the "Known Ones" that could be very silly at times.
And this is as a die hard Planescape fan.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:22:54
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quote:
No,
What the material now says is that the orcs were brought from a different Material Plane, which means it's no where within FR's Material Plane. Just like Greyhawk has it's different and seperate Material Plane, as does Dragonlance, etc.
Yes, all deities in FR are, as I said above, only FR deities now. Tyr, for example, is a Tyr of FR. The Tyr of the Norse is a totally different being except in name only. There are no multi-sphereic deities any more. All deities are now only single-sphereic.
Moonshae trilogy was before they retconned in the new cosmology, so the material in that novel is wrong. This is no different then how TSR and WOTC changed the Earthmother from being a seperate deity to being a part of Chauntea. According to later TSR and WOTC material, the Earthmother has ALWAYS been an aspect of Chauntea and never a seperate deity.
Yeah, that's an amazingly silly way to handle it all. Why not have plenty of planets in the single Forgotten Realms Prime Material Plane.
Frankly, I was glad we could make Forgotten Realms "space" more realistic and get away from the craziness of Spelljammer (the oddball physics) while keeping some elements of it yet this takes us right back to square one.
I do agree that retconning the Earthmother to Chauntea is a still a great idea though. They should do the same to the other land's gods of Toril but that would require acknowledging that Kara Tur and other lands exist.
Chaunteau is the Planet Toril though, The Sun is the Sun, and so on. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 09 Jan 2007 23:24:01 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:27:30
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You agree that retconning Earthmother to Chauntea was a great idea??? Where did Kuje say it was?
And while we're at it turning the different pantheons into one and the same, why not make it all just monotheistic for fragg's sake?!
Chauntea is not Toril, she is the goddess of all the plowed fields on Faerūn, NOT Toril.
Next we get to hear that Osiris of Egypt is the Sun-god for all earth....shya |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:28:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The Planar Realm thing is unnecessarily complex though (in my opinion). Why have them as part of Mount Celestia and other Planes at all if you're going to use them?
It makes sense if you have deities rule over an entire layer like Bane the Dark Lord of the Ninth and Lowest Circle of Hell but let's not forget that Ed Greenwood had Bane kicking around Asmodeus when he first wrote the articles detailing the Nine Hells....even if he did allow for other deities like Set to inhabit it.
I doubt I'm going to convince you to my point of view. However, I wouldn't mind asking what you think has been lost though. What I enjoy most about the Great Tree is that it seems to allow for infinite expansion. Need a new plane of existence, just add a new deity. The Great Wheel seemed to be restricted to the "Known Ones" that could be very silly at times.
And this is as a die hard Planescape fan.
I'm not sure which cosmology you are discussing in your first and second paragraphs. However, as I said, even now each deity has their own planar realm and only Mystra rules the plane that she resides on. Also since there are no deities in the Abyss or the Hells, except for the one Lisa put back in her psi novels (which is technically an error, depending on if you want to stick to sourcebooks over novels), there are no divine beings ruling over those planes.
It's not complex because some deities shouldn't have absolute power on the planes they reside on because they are not the only beings on those planes.
What's been lost, in my opinion, is using all of the pantheons and deities. If I want to use Zeus for instance, I can do so using the old planes a lot easier then I can using the new planes. If I use FR's new closed cosmology, I have to sit down and ponder how Zeus' worship is going to affect the Prime Material, how the deities are going to interact, etc.
I'd rather have a large open playing field instead of a closed system.
And it was not that hard to add new planes to the Wheel/Ring, just like it's not any harder to add them to the new cosmology. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:31:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
You agree that retconning Earthmother to Chauntea was a great idea??? Where did Kuje say it was?
And while we're at it turning the different pantheons into one and the same, why not make it all just monotheistic for fragg's sake?!
Chauntea is not Toril, she is the goddess of all the plowed fields on Faerūn, NOT Toril.
Next we get to hear that Osiris of Egypt is the Sun-god for all earth....shya
1. I agree with the ones who made the decision.
2. Wasn't it Ed's original intention actually? The Elven Pantheon, dwarven pantheon, and so on being added over his objections?
3. Chauntea is the Earth according to Selune/Shar origin story. I take that as the origin of the Realms.
You guys are probably both better versed in the Realms than I am. My opinion is just my opinion and can be taken with a grain of salt by other readers.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:35:33
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Selune/Shar/Chauntea/Mystryl...yes, but those creation myths are only relevant to one part of the world.
Check the creation myths of our world, each religion had their own and there was/is no single pantheon/entity responsible for all of it in every religion simultaneously.
Stop thinking monotheistic! |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:37:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Selune/Shar/Chauntea/Mystryl...yes, but those creation myths are only relevant to one part of the world.
Check the creation myths of our world, each religion had their own and there was/is no single pantheon/entity responsible for all of it in every religion simultaneously.
Stop thinking monotheistic!
Hells, some RL faiths have more then one creation myth and or deities that created Earth.
This is why they are myths. :)
Also, before someone yells at me. I didn't restart the long standing argument. I just answered Mace's question and answered the other questions that have since high-jacked this thread. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 09 Jan 2007 23:39:42 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:39:22
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quote:
I'm not sure which cosmology you are discussing in your first and second paragraphs.
The Old Great Wheel cosmology. I was commenting that I didn't like the planar realms versus having seperate planes for each deity unless they had a reason to be together. Then I commented Ed had Bane as one of the Big Dogs of the Plane in his original Dragon articles on the Nine Hells. That goes in to my idea that the FR deities should be big and powerful, not minor.
quote:
However, as I said, even now each deity has their own planar realm and only Mystra rules the plane that she resides on.
I'm pretty sure that Tyr is ruler of the Triad in the same way Zeus is ruler of Olympus even if the other gods dwell with him. What he says, goes. Then there's Cyric whose the only god of his realm.
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Also since there are no deities in the Abyss or the Hells, except for the one Lisa put back in her psi novels (which is technically an error, depending on if you want to stick to sourcebooks over novels), there are no divine beings ruling over those planes.
Yeah, the Nine Hells and Abyss make no sense in the current cosmology. They were pretty obviously tacked on with no rhyme or reason to the idea behind it.
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It's not complex because some deities shouldn't have absolute power on the planes they reside on because they are not the only beings on those planes.
How does that affect my point? I assume you mean deities that don't have their own particular Heavens and are servants of greater deities. No Azuth shouldn't rule his own dimension because he's a servant of Mystra, ditto Velsharoon.
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What's been lost, in my opinion, is using all of the pantheons and deities. If I want to use Zeus for instance, I can do so using the old planes a lot easier then I can using the new planes. If I use FR's new closed cosmology, I have to sit down and ponder how Zeus' worship is going to affect the Prime Material, how the deities are going to interact, etc.
As stated, it doesn't work. My conception of the idea was erroneous but instead of the insanity of Zeus dwelling on the same dimension as Corelleon Lantheon, you could just insert the dimension of Mount Olympus as undiscovered. I actually had a wonderful game with the Great Tree by having Primus and Mechanus appear in the Realms Cosmology and become dire enemies of the world.
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I'd rather have a large open playing field instead of a closed system.
As would I. Infinite diversity over smashing together a billion myths into a Wheel of Alignment.
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And it was not that hard to add new planes to the Wheel/Ring, just like it's not any harder to add them to the new cosmology.
Yes, but the Great Wheel was built on the assumption that there were only these. It takes a huge rewrite of the ideas inherent to the system if you add a Plane of Law or Evil when things are so precariously balanced with the Blood War and so on. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:40:03
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Originally posted by Kuje
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Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Selune/Shar/Chauntea/Mystryl...yes, but those creation myths are only relevant to one part of the world.
Check the creation myths of our world, each religion had their own and there was/is no single pantheon/entity responsible for all of it in every religion simultaneously.
Stop thinking monotheistic!
Hells, some RL faiths have more then one creation myth and or deities they say created Earth.
This is why they are myths. :)
Also, before someone yells at me. I didn't restart the long standing argument. I just answered Mace's question and answered the other questions that have since high-jacked this thread.
well, yea...
Maybe some over-deity had a bad digestion and puked it all up...who knows what is true?  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:42:36
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| If Tyr was the ruler of thr triad, would that not make the entire Triad, which inherently implies THREE ruling members, obsolete??? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Origins for the Abyss and Nine Hells
