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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 19:49:01
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Sooooo this is a question related to the Nine Hells and Abyss question below where essentially we talk about how the Nine Hells and Abyss came to pass.
This question is how the Demon princes and Archdevils detailed in supplements recently published by WOTC should interact with the gods of FR.
Unlike most settings, the gods of FR are tremendously active in the world. They're constantly intervening, plotting, and counterplotting. The role of fiends as intermediaries is largely pointless by comparison.
So how do you handle them?
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Dreamstalker
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 22:49:45
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As opposition allies and competition. By and large the various Lords are individually less active on the material plane because there are other pressing concerns as well. Most important being the particular politics of the fiendish realms.
In terms of an actual campaigns the Gods should be less interventionist then they are within the framework of the novels. Different forms of drama work best in each. In the games I have run my players have run afoul of major aspects of the various Lords more often then they have witnessed an avatar. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 02:28:39
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I have the gods show up pretty often and never seem to find a place for Demons.
I suppose I'd have to drastically depower them to make them effective. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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David E
Seeker
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 02:51:04
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As it stands, demons and devils have less interest in mortals on Toril than do the gods. Whereas the gods need worship to survive, the fiends cannot do anything with the spiritual energy engendered by mortals' worship. Also, it is much harder in the Realms for demons and devils to harvest souls, given that Kelemvor has banned devils from using trickery on the fugue plane to gather souls, and his servants patrol that plane to prevent demons from raiding too often.
I agree that the fiends should be opposing forces of the gods, or at least rivals. Since both Faerunian gods and the fiends want/need the souls of petitioners, such a relationship would be hard to avoid.
For devils, you could use the harvester devil (I think that's what it's called) from FCII as an agent of the Nine Hells who is trying to get mortals to pledge their souls to an archdevil BEFORE he or she dies, thus circumventing Kelemvor's edict. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 05:05:29
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Demons and Devils have to work harder in the Realms but that makes it more interesting. They need souls, so they have to make pacts, start cults, infiltrate organizations, answer the call of inquisitive mages, hire themselves out to gods as mercenaries and enforcers and cultivate all the relationships to obtain the souls they need for their Blood War.
Demons and Devils have some ties to gods. Gargauth may actually be working for Hell, it is not clear where his petitioners go. Do they populate his Material plane realm (most likely located in a pit beneath fallen Pelerevan). Does he devour them to increase his own power? Or is he actually an agent or recruiter for Hell, sending the souls of his petitioners on to the Hells to swell the ranks?
Devils work for Bane, so he most likely has a deal with Hell to supply him with troops in exchange for petitioner souls. Devils are known to work for other gods as well. Tiamat has longstanding ties with the Hells and she comands countless abishais.
Demons also work for chaotic gods, so there must also be a quid-pro-quo between the Abyss and certain gods.
Then there are many demon princes that have cults in the Realms including Kostchtchie, Pazrael (aka Pazuzu), Orcus, Eltab, Yeenoghu, and others. Probably every major archfiend has cultivated worshippers and cults somewhere in the Realms. Whether they are gods or not, there are certainly people in the Realms who believe they are gods and worship them as such.
There are portals all over the Realms that lead to the Abyss and the Nine Hells. I am certain that the fiends love it when adventurers wander through those portals. It wouldn't surprise me if the fiends were creating many of those portals for the express purpose of having people wander through them into the fiendish planes.
The channeled Astral often forces fiends to pass through Faerun in order to wage their Blood War on other planes. It is not uncommon for fiends to get caught in battles and intrigues on Toril on the layover to their next planar destination.
Narfell is riddled with demonic cysts and links to the Abyss. Certain parts of the Abyss are practically bleeding into the material plane at certain points in the Narfell area.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 05:34:25
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I'm debating the possibility that Demon Cults are "shills" for evil gods. That a God can empower the Archfiends with some of their essence (and in fact, in my games, this is how Archfiends come into being from 'normal' devils). This allows them to channel the deities power into spell granting.
Orcus: Myrkul (still possessing a tremendous amount of power from his former association with him)
Yeenoghu: Silvanus
Graazt: Cyric (formerly Shar despite their alignment differences--Cyric stole him away)
Asmodeus: Bane's regent over the Nine Hells
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 07:33:45
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I guess I have never pictured fiends of any stripe as being subordinate to evil gods. A lot of times they might serve their cults, or they might work with their agents, but I've never seen fiends as part of the godly power structure, but rather, as rivals to it.
In a way, outside of alignment, the gods are "legitimate" rulers over celestial matters. They have portfolios, get to grant divine spells, and in FR they more or less have to do something to tend to their flocks and advance the interests of their portfolios.
I don't picture the evil gods as trusting fiends. Bane may use devils, but its because they have a deal that both parties find lucrative. Demons may work for, say, Talos from time to time, but its because they are afraid of retribution when he "asks" for their help. And we all know Yugoloths work for whoever provides them with what they want.
I picture all fiends as rebels of one sort or another, working outside the "natural" order set up by the gods. Demons want to tear the universe apart and make it more like "home," a swirling pit of chaos and insanity, pain and depravity, without order or reason. I see devils as wanting to slowly make the gods beholden to them, corrupting and controlling them, so that they can be the "power behind the throne," controlling what would normally be considered more powerful beings through manipulation and blackmail.
Now, what I have said mainly applies to the Baatezu, Tanar'ri, Obyrinths, etc. There are creatures native to Hell, that are considered devils because they are LE outsiders, that aren't Baatezu that might be loyal to a given god, or demons that aren't Tanar'ri, such as the Handmaidens of Lolth, that actually serve a given god specifically, but these are specific cases.
Also, given this take on fiends, it would make sense that devils might be a little more likely to volunteer forces for various evil gods, because this puts the gods in question in their debt. In fact, wiser deities might actually prefer to use the Yugoloths, as they may be more straight forward about their prices than the Baatezu are.
But this is just my take on the situation. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 13:39:27
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I suppose it's a point whether we consider evil gods to be embodiments of evil or not.
I vacillate on this or not because I like the idea Devils and other creatures are part of the "Servitors of a God" in sort of a reverse Christian heriarchy while the idea of them as Rebels also appeals.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 16:05:35
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The way I look at the interaction between the Gods and the evil outsiders is along the lines of this (I haven't hammered out my full theory on this, because I'm lazy, but I'll get to it one of these days *g*)
The Gods want as little evil outsider (and outsider in general) influence in FR as possible, the Gods basically don't want the rivals to their power and the outsiders goal is drawing FR into their respective plane (devils drawing it into hell, demons drawing it into the abyss, etc). I see this (the drawing of a prime into an outside plane) as the “big win” for outsiders.
Now, this doesn't mean that the Gods won't use outsiders, just that they will be VERY careful in dealing with the outsiders.
I see AO as the ultimate "goalkeeper" of FR, he/she/it is the one who makes sure FR stays FR (or stays on the cosmic cycle it is on, I see AO and overgods in general as stewards of the cosmic cycle, they're goal is to keep things going, sorta like cosmic engineers *g*)
Now, the thing to keep in mind here is that there are nigh unto an infinite amount of outsiders. This means that the Gods can find servants among the outsider population without compromising the integrity of FR (part of my theory involves that the more connection FR has to the "outside" the weaker FR becomes as it's own entity and starts to "break down") though I’d say that most of the God’s servants come from their own petitioners.
Anyhow, as to the original question, I handle the Demon Princes, Archdevils, unique outsiders, etc like I handle the Gods. They don’t do anything with the mortal coil, the work through agents and proxies. They are involved in a nigh unto constant battle of maneuvering trying to find the weakest link that they can exploit while not sticking their own necks out (ie. The outsiders are always trying to find a way into FR, to expand their holdings, to convert more followers, etc, but they’re doing this in such a way as to not attract attention, otherwise there might be a rather large, high powered battle that no one is certain who would come out on top and who might be around to take out that “winner” after their hard fought battles)
So I say use people and outsiders to represent the uber outsiders interests. I don’t see Graazt showing up in FR because he wouldn’t want to leave his place of power and stick his neck out just so he can. . . kill some mortals? Make sure the plot on one mortal coil gets pulled of successfully? The uber outsiders have more plots than we can conceve and more agents to see those plots through than the CIA. I just don’t see them sticking their neck out like that EVER (IMO and IMG the whole Orcus debacle was his own plot designed to get everyone off his back so he could get to some good old plotting, just a bunch of smoke and mirrors on a minor planet so that Demogorgon might look the other way *g*)
Anyhow, this is (obviously) all IMO, but I like it #61514;
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 16:28:58
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Well I want to definitely accent a power difference.
I'm not sure but I think that there should be no rivalry with a true god and an Archfiend. They're the most powerful thing before the gods but they're NOT nor are they rivals to them.
the difference in power being the same as that of a Archwizard and a deity.
Or is that wrong? Basically, I don't want to delude my players with the idea that Fiends are rivals to the gods. They're false gods and within the power of the PCs to oppose or destroy. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 16:44:33
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Oh, I certainly think the Fiends (your lower level, nonunique fiends) are opposible by PCs and should be one of the biggest, baddest fights PCs can have.
However.
I really find that the uber outsiders, the unique ones, should be on a level with the Gods (and in some cases more powerful, such as when a God is far away from their "center of power" and the uber outsider is near their "center of power") and shouldn't be something the PCs ever really encounter. They've got MUCH better things to do (IMO)
Though it is your game, and if you like using uber outsiders do it to it. It is great fun to be able to mouth off to Dispater, or kick Belial in the nads :) |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 17:05:35
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| Well, check Resurrection, for some relations |
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Demonic relationships with the FR gods
