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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 21:15:32
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I'm debating what should be both plane's origins since they don't seem to fit the cosmology of the Realms now.
My current idea is the Nine Hells is a prison that Ao created for Gods that were no longer useful to the universe. Sort of like Tartarus is for the Titans. The Archfiends of the Nine Hells are gods that withered without worship and were forgotten.
Perhaps Asmodeus is the former Sun God of Netheril.
The Abyss I'm thinking might be the Chaos that was before the universe and what's left of it.
Anyone else got some origins ideas for the two planes?
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 02:37:45
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Consider Shar. She was so happy in the first days of the cosmos. There was a perfect balance between light and dark. She exulted in creation with her sister Selūne. Together they made Chauntea and the celestial bodies and filled them all with life. The three of them were a happy family.
Then Chauntea conspired with Selūne to create the Sun. A sun to banish darkness. It would destroy their perfect balance and diminish, even destroy Shar.
She must have felt so betrayed.
Alone in her anguish, as she sulked in her Shadow realm, Shar's portfolios of loss and hatred first began to emerge and fester.
And then one night (for it was always night back then) a roving Baernaloth or Ultraloth, perhaps Kexxon himself--attracted from across deepest Shadow by the wafting scent of her pain--came knocking at Shar's tower door with a solution to all her woes.
Revenge. Premptive strike. Punishment. WAR he counseled her. And the spark of joy again filled Shar's eyes.
In exchange for certain "considerations" the yugoloth became Shar's tutor in her education of evil. It fostered in her an awareness of the instruments of her retribution and a desire to bend those tools to the execution of her dark will. The fiend escorted Shar across deepest Shadow to the borders of a neighboring cosmology, guiding her to certain fiendish planes within to make her introduction among the most powerful of archdevils, ancient nighthags, and demon princes.
Contracts were made. Legions of mercenaries were hired. The price she paid was the pledge of territory, a beachhead for the fiends from which to invade her pristine, untainted crystal sphere. And souls. A new source of souls to serve as grist for the ever-churning mill of their Blood War.
It is said that Shar bartered with Asmodeus to send avatars of himself and all the dukes of Hell to oversee countless legions of Baatezu in the harrowing of the light. Not to be outdone, the Demon Princes sent over their own avatars to lead their dark battalions in Shar's campaign. Some sages have whispered that it was not the archfiends whom Shar conscripted, but rather the very planes of Baator and the Abyss themselves that interloped as planar avatars, manifesting every layer, every fiend and archfiend, perfect twins of the planes from which they spawned.
In Shar's curious absence, Chauntea and Selūne reveled in the prospect of nourishing warmth and the new life they would make as they drew their plans to craft a sun.
And in the midst of their joyful contemplation, the endless peace was shattered as Shar began her invasion at the head of fiendish armies--bearing war, disease, strife, destruction and death in her wake.
Of course there were no names for these concepts back then.
But Oghma was soon to name them. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 02:46:32
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Theres an origin for the Nine Hells in the first chapter of FC2 however it doesnt really fit with the Sylune vs Shar (Light vs Darkness)creation story we have in the realms
Theres also a story for the Abyss in FC1 although I didnt buy it so I cant tell you what it is |
I am the King of Rome, and above grammar
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 02:55:44
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| Actually, we aren't lacking the Seven Heavents. Mount Celestial in the central mountain in the House of the Triad, the plane where Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater have their Realms. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 03:03:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Theres an origin for the Nine Hells in the first chapter of FC2 however it doesnt really fit with the Sylune vs Shar (Light vs Darkness)creation story we have in the realms
Theres also a story for the Abyss in FC1 although I didnt buy it so I cant tell you what it is
I think that in some ways the origins from the Fiendish Codex can work, to a degree, with Realms cosmology. I can buy that there was a mass of chaos before reality was "tamed" by Ao, and that some of that choas was almost sentient, thus giving rise to the Abyss, and that the forces of order, once the obyrinths were born, had to come up with a way of fighting back these beings of chaos, which plays, somewhat into the origins of Hell.
The only thing I would point out is that most people on Toril itself aren't likely to know a whole lot about these origins at all, except perhaps that the Abyss is what is left over of the chaos that existed before creation, and that the Nine Hells is, depending on how you look at it, the land given to or created to imprison, the devils once they became too dangerous to the powers that be. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 03:38:27
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My take on it is that the crystal sphere of Realmspace did not originate in a vacuum. It floats in shadow (or phlogiston or wildspace--whatever you want to call that metaphysical ocean in which crystal spheres and their attendant cosmologies float) not far from the crystal sphere of Greyhawk and its Great Wheel.
Greyhawk and Faerun each have their own Hell and an Abyss, which bear striking similarities to each other. Practically clones. How did this come to be?
Was it parallel evolution? I rejected that solution as unsatisfying and problematic.
But these two universes have long had traffic between them. Gods have interloped over to the Realms from the Great Wheel, why not demon lords or even planes?
But what would be the motivation for that? Who would invite them in? Did huge populations of demon worshipers migrate through portals? Unlikely... Yet they had to have been there from very early on as even the Sarrukh were dealing with demons. Then the ideal solution hit me. The War of Light and Darkness between Shar and Selune.
I figure that Ao created the crystal sphere of Realmspace some 70 thousand years ago, give or take (as Ed Greenwood hinted in a recent post on his thread). I figure also that it is a younger sphere than Greyhawk. It was at first untainted by fiends, and Shar and Selune lived in harmony for a time.
But then the sisters came into conflict. Shar brought fiendish mercenaries over from the Great Wheel. Shar could travel there because she had access to the Shadow Plane, where her tower and divine realm are located. And Shadow is in turn connected to all the alternate Material planes, such as Greyhawk, which just happens to be not so far away.
But Selune too has access to Greyhawk and other worlds by means of the Infinite Staircase which is connected to her palace in the Gates of the Moon.
I figure that when Shar attacked, Selune would have taken to the stairs to find her own champions and allies. She found Oghma, and Sylvanus, and Tyche and Annam, possibly even Moradin and Corellon and Herne and others. They in turn helped Selune bring over Archons and Eladrins and Guardinals to watch over vulnerable Chauntea and protect the first life.
After the truce was negotiated at Cynosure, the devils took up residence in their own Nine Hells that they crafted (or brought over) and the Demons replicated the Abyss. The Yugoloths took up residence in the Barrens of Doom and Despair, setling the largest volcano there which they called Calaas, after their homeland on the Great Wheel. It would eventually be split off to form part of the Blood Rift.
The Archons raised their own version of Mount Celestia--which would have been called Celestia for many, many millenia until around -247 DR when Tyr interloped over to the Realms and set up shop there, lifting up his own mountain, along with Helm and Ilmater, renaming the place the House of the Triad, although some still call the plane Celestia, I imagine.
The Eladrins settled their new Court of Stars in the Gates of the Moon with Selune. And the Guardinals still watch over Chauntea in the House of Nature.
Almost all of the exemplars of the Great Wheel planes that have settled in the FR cosmology probably came over as mercenaries to fight in the War of Light and Darkness and have stuck around ever since. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 04:01:13
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A literal interpretation might also work.
"Sometime around the Time of Troubles, the universe was built around much more eldritch concepts of one's nature versus one's deity's worship. Then a foreign wizard of immense power used the instability caused by Ao's acts as the perfect time to strike and shatter the plains in a failed attempt to change the cosmos."
"The deities have since seperated most of their layers of their former homes into free floating planes. Oddly, its retroactively moving back in time this disaster so that it was always the case."
-Khelben lecturing on strange physics
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 04:10:25
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Personally, I have always liked the idea of Vecna acting as the "Anti-Monitor" in a sort of reverse "Crisis on Infinate Earths" take on things. That having been said, since the effects went backwards in time, that would mean that the inhabitants of the planes effected wouldn't remember that things used to be different. In fact, the recent Vecna article in Dragon Magazine intimated that while there may be a handful of people that remember the "old order" they tend to be seen as insane. Which, of course, would be your planar "Psycho Pirates."
Yeah, I know, this whole concept is a lot easier to take of you read comics. At any rate, its been said many times that this is suppose to be how the planes have always been set up, regardless of any hints dropped in the Vecna article.
Still, if universes used to have a shared cosmology, then it makes more sense that when they were split, that the further back in time you go, the more similar the origin of the given plane. But even assuming this, even Khelben wouldn't remember what things "used" to be like, since he exists within the universe and timeframe that was affected.
Although it would be interesting if someone like, say, Mintassan came across some planar artifacts that don't make any sense unless the universe used to be different . . . |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 04:37:17
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I am actually very keen on the idea of the "Crisis on the Infinite Earths" reasoning to explain the split between the 2e cosmology and the 3e cosmologies. I find it a very attractive explanation.
Not sure if I buy into Vecna being the cause, although I can't discount it, after all there was that whole module. If only Time Warner would buy Hasbro then TSR's multiverse could be unified with the DC multiverse and then we could literally blame the actual Anti-Monitor for the fragmentation of Planescape. Heh Heh. 
I am slightly partial to "the Sundering" being the actual cause. The Sundering is said to have rippled forward and backward through time, which is why the continuity might not have seemed to reboot until 1371 DR, but then when it did, history had been re-written all the way back to the begining.
If not the Sundering, then perhaps some metaphysical explanation that is beyond our mortal ken. Some kind of war among the overgods that required Toril and Greyhawk and Krynn and Athas to be sequestered in their own cosmologies for their own safety. Perhaps Athas was the first to fall victim to this metaphysical which could be the real, secret reason that Athas has been set apart in the Grey for so long.
I am certainly open to a well written in-game explanation as to how the cosmologies became separated. But until they give us official answers, I am certainly having fun trying to suss out the new continuity of Toril's planes. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 05:19:06
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You could also look at it as an "aggregate" damage to the . . . ahem . . . walls of reality. Not only do you have Vecna (which I mentioned because the module itself seemed to highly suggest had caused some major planar changes), but you also had Chaos' assault on Krynn. Its entirely possible that various events, throughout time, on various planes caused issues. Tharizdun might have caused damage in Oerth's plane.
I'm not sure how I'd work it in anywhere else, but the other thing that reminds me of DC Comic and their cosmology is that according to Lords of Madness, Aboleth existed before the current universe was in place, and mind flayers come from the future, perhaps the end of time, and have moved backwards in time to establish their empire. For some reason, something keeps nagging at the back of my brain about the whole connecting the beginning and end of time . . . must think more on this . . . |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 06:09:36
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Eh, I tend to think that Khelben might know it solely because Elminster told him.
And Elminster knows because he visited with Ed Greenwood and read the module ;-)
(Much like Animal Man, I imagine Elminster sounds utterly crazy but is the one guy whose most enlightened)
I would have had Elminster explain it in my quote but I'd never get the accent right
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 09 Jan 2007 06:10:03 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 07:33:14
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If you say that Aboleths come from the past, and Illithids come from the future, then you just threw Eberron's canon right out the window.
Don't you think that the cosmology of the newest setting should be incorporated into a more universal cosmology?
Perhaps an 'Over Cosmology'?
I picture everything in the multiverse STILL revolves around the Great Wheel. The only difference is that NOW the various Overgods have been granted the power to control their sphere's interaction with the wheel. After some of the incidents surrounding the time of troubles Ao decided to limit which spheres his mortals know about, and which ones they can reach. Also, how they are able to reach them, and also limit their ability to move across planes. Ao's new cosmology has kicked in, and as part of it everyone thinks that it is the way it always was, even though it isn't.
Someone like El might be looking at the 'Tree' in a book and thinking "Hmmmm... theres something not quite right...", but he won't be able to put his finger on it. Perhaps nutty Halaster remembers the truth... 
BTW - This was all decided recently at the Inter-dimensional Confrence of Overgods (IDCoO) which takes place every century in Sigil. A good time was had by all, and remember - "What happens in Sigil STAYS in Sigil". |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 08:19:50
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Meh, as far as I was concerned, the Great Wheel was Greyhawk.
I preferred that Dragon magazine with the Green background and astrolobe that gave the option the Multiverse was an infinite and unpredictable place where no one knew what was beyond the next corner. The planes that were commonly traveled from Sigil were just the tip of the ice burg.
;-)
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 08:35:01
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Thats my point, the planes are what you conceive them to be. So, if Ao makes everyone think that they are a certain way, then they are that way, but ONLY to people originating from Abeir-Toril. If a native faerunian was traveling in a party with people from other planes and wanted to cross from the Nine Hells into the Abyss he would have to travel all the way back to toril and then back out to the Abyss. The rest of the party would think he was nuts and just travel through the astral to go from one outer plane to another. If another member of the party didn't even have the Abyss in his cosmology, he would have NO way of following, he would just see the others disappear into nothingness.
Therefore, the wheel, the tree, the web, even the giant mushroom, all work at the same time. Its just a matter of perception. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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David E
Seeker
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 09:46:14
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My personal take on the origins of the Abyss goes against canon somewhat (I think). To explain my concept briefly (which I've been trying to piece together from FCI, FCII, the FRCS, the Player's Guide to Faerun, and various second edition sources), I've figured that the Abyss existed long before the Material Planes had been created. With the change in cosmology in 3rd edition, I tried to reconcile the change by figuring that the Material Planes of the Great Wheel and the Tree Cosmology of the Realms are separate and distinct, each of which has its own planar cosmology and was created AFTER the creation of the Abyss and the primordial obyriths. Thus, the Abyss is the same in both GREYHAWK and the FORGOTTEN REALMS, although certain aspects of the Abyss (such as its connection to the Blood Rift) only occur in the Realms cosmology.
I felt the lore behind obyriths (from articles in Dragon and the FCI), about how the obyriths rose in the Abyss before the first mortals had been born, contradicted the idea that the ENTIRE Realms cosmology (the Abyss included) had been created with the War of Light and Darkness. Making the Abyss, and by extension the Nine Hells and Mount Celestia, the same planes or part of the same planes that are present in the Great Wheel might eliminate this contradiction.
I'm still trying to piece it all together, and some of these ideas are great, like the yugoloths offering their services to Shar in the War of Light and Darkness. This actually works really well with the idea that the Abyss existed before the Realms cosmology. The idea that Shar then brought the fiends to the Realms works perfectly. |
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Aureus
Learned Scribe
Luxembourg
125 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 12:17:09
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The abyss rather then hell seems to be the anti-thesis of life and order (if you paied attention in maths you know that pure choas is surprisingly "stable", it's paradox but chaos has absolut and unbendable rules) it is created with the cosmologie and evolves in the same manner (because of it's chaos) in every universe, demons do not change they may only have diffrent names but their powers and their position are in the end the same, thus they do and react the same way.
As for the creation of the diffrent universe I imagine that the where all once the same (in their "default" status) and had over the time diffrent evolutions (that's why the abyss is almost the same in the universes, if you visited both you would say that they are the same plans in even if there is no place that 100% looks like another) |
That is not the weirdest thing that happened to me |
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Tyr
Learned Scribe
225 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 14:27:12
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The Dagon entry in Dragon gives a brief summary of the early Abyss through to the present.
The way i've always seen the Abyss and the Nine Hells is they are linked to every Prime plane, with the exception of specific areas like David E mentions. If I remember correctly the demons/devils were actually formed because of the humanoid races evolving.
I also remember from something with Dragonalance mentioning how the Abyss and the Nine Hells were unique plains common to everything, while the DL abyss refers collectively to the lower planes. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 14:31:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If you say that Aboleths come from the past, and Illithids come from the future, then you just threw Eberron's canon right out the window.
Not necessarily. We don't know how Eberron and Toril relate to each other, time-wise. Thru some strange time dilation, both could still be true.
Of course, Eberron has such a unique cosmology itself that I think it better to keep it separate and out of the discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
BTW - This was all decided recently at the Inter-dimensional Confrence of Overgods (IDCoO) which takes place every century in Sigil. A good time was had by all, and remember - "What happens in Sigil STAYS in Sigil".
Gods in Sigil? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 14:56:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
BTW - This was all decided recently at the Inter-dimensional Confrence of Overgods (IDCoO) which takes place every century in Sigil. A good time was had by all, and remember - "What happens in Sigil STAYS in Sigil".
That's not likely... The Lady of Pain would never allow such a conference to occur in the City of Doors.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 14:58:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If you say that Aboleths come from the past, and Illithids come from the future, then you just threw Eberron's canon right out the window.
Not necessarily. We don't know how Eberron and Toril relate to each other, time-wise. Thru some strange time dilation, both could still be true.
Keith Baker's tried to distance himself from such considerations... though he has *suggested* that should he have to nail down a possible temporal relationship between Eberron and Toril... Eberron would, at most, be a few years behind in terms of inter-cosmological time-keeping.
It's certainly not an official stance, rather... just what he's come up with as a "place-holder" should he ever need to work more definitely on such a relationship.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - The Sage on 09 Jan 2007 15:02:11 |
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David E
Seeker
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 19:21:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That's not likely... The Lady of Pain would never allow such a conference to occur in the City of Doors.
I thought only gods were barred from entering Sigil - what about overgods?
Back on topic, that is how I conceive of the Lower Planes, Tyr. I also think that, by extension, Mount Celestia should be common to the different cosmologies as well, given that the plane and its denizens were intimately involved in the War of Law and Chaos (which I believe occurred in every multiverse, just as the Blood War does). I like KEJR's take on how Tyr created the House of the Triad on Mount Celestia.
Like Gray said earlier, I imagine that the crystal sphere of Greyhawk is much older than that of Toril (although mortal life and civilization on Greyhawk may not have reached its prime until about the same time as on Toril, given that the world was ravaged by the War of Law and Chaos). This terrible conflict could be the reason that Ao decided to create a separate cosmology for the Realms - to protect mortal life on Toril from being overrun by demonic or infernal armies. Then Shar simply brought the fiends through the plane of shadow, or helped create a planar breach large enough for the Lower Planes, as well as Mount Celestia, to slip through. (Or portions of the planes, which explains why they appear slightly different in the Realms versus the Great Wheel.)
This explanation, however, doesn't factor in the change in cosmology from 2nd to 3rd edition. I like KEJR's idea that Vecna's invasion of Sigil precipitated the change, as Ao was forced to reach backwards in time and alter the cosmology of Toril to save the Realms. (I figure this is possible as Ao could very well exist outside of space and time.) After Ao changed the cosmology, Shar then brought the fiends to the Realms in the 'new version' of the War of Light and Darkness.
Another explanation is that the Lower Planes and Mount Celestia exist outside of cosmologies entirely - that is, they can be present in any (or all) cosmologies, perhaps because the denizens of those planes exist outside of space and time as well. Thus, the Lower Planes and Mount Celestia had always existed in the Realms, even before the War of Light and Darkness. The Realms was only protected from the War of Law and Chaos because of the defeat of the Abyssal hordes at the Battle of Pesh on primitive Oerth. The gods then rose to prominence on Toril, and as their power grew, so did their ability to protect the Realms from an outerplanar invasion as extensive as the war that had ravaged the multiple Material Planes during the War of Law and Chaos. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 19:50:03
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| Can't we just toss the new cosmology overboard? *shrug* Has there ever been any plausible explanation as to why it happened? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 20:03:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Can't we just toss the new cosmology overboard? *shrug* Has there ever been any plausible explanation as to why it happened?
There's never been a canon official answer, no. :) We've been asking for one for 6 years now. We are just supposed to believe the old cosmology for FR never existed and it's always been the Tree. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 20:21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by David E
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That's not likely... The Lady of Pain would never allow such a conference to occur in the City of Doors.
I thought only gods were barred from entering Sigil - what about overgods?
My point EXACTLY. She makes quite a bit of cash hosting the conference, although a lot of that is spent on cleaning up the city afterwords. She also REALLY hates the funny little hats.
If I were being serious here, I picture the conference hall as part of her own complex, and it would look EXACTLY like the council chamber from the Star Wars movies. The Lady of Pain would be floating in the middle (like the emperor) and the various Overgods would all be on little floating balcony/boxes. I think she would rather enjoy the feeling of power.
You guys are forgetting that the planes of the Great wheel are infinite. That means EVERY single instance of the Abyss could be present in the REAL Abyss, and mortals from different cosmologies would NEVER see the stuff from the other worlds because it could be hundreds of trillions of miles from their little piece of the Abyss.
Just my two cents, |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 20:37:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Can't we just toss the new cosmology overboard? *shrug* Has there ever been any plausible explanation as to why it happened?
There's never been a canon official answer, no. :) We've been asking for one for 6 years now. We are just supposed to believe the old cosmology for FR never existed and it's always been the Tree.
Guess I just have to learn a whole deal more about the old cosmology, cuz the tree thing doesn't do it for me. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 22:15:37
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I never really got what was appealing about the Great Wheel honestly.
You've got these huge numbers of planes with no connection to the gods and they are often wildly culturally inconsistent.
I mean, a plane of gears for Helm?
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 22:28:15
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| The appeal, at least to me, is that you could do dimensional travel and go to other worlds. Now with this retrofitting this is made more difficult, and somewhat confusing if you look at established lore, unless the celestial stairways and infinite staircase are still there and can be used. If not, well how could Waukeen be freed? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 22:35:50
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I don't see it as much of a problem because the Celestial Stairways and Infinite Staircase are just retrofits on the Great Wheel anyway.
How do you free Waukeen?
Well you can just travel up to the "trunk" of the Great Tree or leave through a portal.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Origins for the Abyss and Nine Hells
