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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 20:23:54
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I love Cyric, I love him to death but he never particularly worked for me as a nameless god of evil. I'm more inclined to use the character in a different way and I'm interested in seeing how people might think to wield him.
Cyric's porfolio's lend themselves to making the character into a Trickster God more than anything else. The Lord of Murder, Lies, Illusion, and the like seems to be the best suited for elaborate schemes and falsehoods. A character very interested in manipulating politics and the like.
(Given Gargauth has been offed in my campaign, I'm fairly sure that Cyric will make an excellent patron for the Knights of the Shield)
This will also bring Cyric into conflict with Bane more directly as the character will attempt to gain power over politics and chaos. I also tend to treat Bane as more of a character devoted to "PEACE THROUGH POWER" as opposed to subterfuge.
Frankly, I'm just looking forward to removing the stink of him being a overpromoted deity and instead making him every bit as worthy of his rank as Greater God as he might be.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Aglaranna
Learned Scribe
166 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 20:58:04
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To steal someone else's line...Party hats and kazoos. They make everything more interesting!
Besides that, no, I can't think of anything... |
"You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose the path that's clear
I will choose freewill." -'Freewill' by Rush |
Edited by - Aglaranna on 05 Jan 2007 20:58:40 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 21:25:29
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I don't think Cyric gets the respect I think he deserves, his stunt in the trial is quite possibly the best diety move I've read about.
I run him as a "raving lunatic face to distract you from his brilliance" sorta jam.
But that's just me :) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 21:26:07
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| I don't know about him being a Trickster... At least in the real world, most trickster deities weren't malicious, as Cyric would be. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 21:37:30
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Well there's Loki obviously.
Let's face it, Cyric already has stolen most of Norse myth for his own use. He broke free the Chaos Hound.
All he needs to do is Kill Lathander with some mistletoe.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 22:36:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Well there's Loki obviously.
Let's face it, Cyric already has stolen most of Norse myth for his own use. He broke free the Chaos Hound.
All he needs to do is Kill Lathander with some mistletoe.
Yes, but other Tricksters, like Kokopelli, Raven, Coyote, or Hermes (he wasn't officially a Trickster, but he was very Trickster-like) weren't malicious. And some Loki mythology has him starting off as a non-malicious sort, but slowly turning to evil. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 22:43:53
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I'm aware of those Myths and tend to think that Shandukul would make an excellent Trickster figure were he slightly more prominent in the Realms instead of being just a god of roads. More prominent might have Finder Wyvernspur portrayed as the "Climber" god that after defeating Moander then set his sights on higher positions until he's a lesser deity or even higher. I can't think of anyone else who'd make a good Neutral or Good Trickster.
In the case of Cyric, I always considered him a case of corruption rather than innately evil. My sympathy was with him the entire time in the Time of Troubles. Only afterwards was he condemned to spend the rest of his life in agony. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 23:19:13
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
I don't think Cyric gets the respect I think he deserves, his stunt in the trial is quite possibly the best diety move I've read about.
I run him as a "raving lunatic face to distract you from his brilliance" sorta jam.
But that's just me :)
I thought that was an excellent move too, he got a lot of respect from me for that |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 23:33:11
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
I run him as a "raving lunatic face to distract you from his brilliance" sorta jam.
If I were to include Cyric in my campaign, I'd run him still as largely, insane... as Ed has said. Or at least at a point where his disturbed mental state still provides his enemies with some degree of chance when attempting to counter his crazy schemes.
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 23:44:23
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One of the things about Cyric that is awkward is what's in it for his individual followers if the faith is all about Cyric's agrandizement? At least according to the description of him in Faiths and Pantheons it's hard to understand what benefits there are for his followers.
In the NWN2 persistent world I'm working with we have cast the Cyricist temple the Tiwn Towers of the Eternal Eclipse as a decidely heretical sect. We did so in large part due to the foolishness of his religion. Why in the world would anyone want to worship a mad (or seemingly mad) god who simply uses up his followers!
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Edited by - Lemernis on 05 Jan 2007 23:45:25 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 23:52:27
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Well from canon, my take on Cyric was always that he's a fairly generous god to people that don't attract his ire. He hates Fzoul and the former Banites but he shows up directly to meet with Malik (a character of fairly dubious standing in the church before his arrival)
I imagine Cyric's faith benefits from allowing you to do whatever the Hell you want so long as The Illusion God gets his cut.
For the guy intending to overthrow the government of Amn anyway and rule as evil tyrant, that has its benefits and less orders from above like with Bane.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 00:02:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
While it verges on blasphemy against Ao....
Is Ed really the best guy to go to for information on this particular God?
Ed's words are considered canon until they are either changed for inclusion in future Realmslore, or another designer expands on Ed's original take. So yes, for me, Ed's the best source for this until I learn otherwise in a future FR sourcebook.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 01:03:18
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I know there's more canon on Cyric than F&P, but here's a sampling:
"Cyric is a petty, self-centered, megalomaniacal deity... [who] draws power-hungry mortals like moths to a flame and inexorably consumes them." His temples are "festering sores of evil... hidden within caves or existing structures, including abandoned buildings, crumbling sewers, and forgotten dungeons, from which terrifying screams echo at irregular intervals.... All have in common a bloody sacrificial altar and a great hall where a local high cleric can rant to the assembled worshippers at irregular intervals." Cyric while mad spoke to his chosen saying different things and pits his faithful against one another "in an endless struggle of cabal against cabal." All authority of any kind must ultimately be subverted to Cyric. And in the final analysis nothing Cyric promises can ever be trusted, and he doesn't actually care about his followers, which surely does not elude the brighter among them.
I guess that's appealing to really crazy evil types, but otherwise wtf? 
I realize it's fantasy and the faith serves roleplaying and plot functions. Cyric is one way of epitomizing Chaotic Evil-ness, I guess. But it's still hard to see what motivates his worshippers (the smarter ones anyway). |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 01:22:23
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Well take note....
* The Book of Vile Darkness indicates that human sacrifice is rewarded and rewarded well.
* You don't have to share power with the rest of the Church.
* Cyric clearly doesn't demand you have much in the way of a proper temple.
* He presumably provides his followers the spells needed to enthrall audiences.
* You aren't required to have regular services but only when you can meet.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 01:55:15
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I think what I find weak about the premise of the Cyricist faith is that it's all about Cyric himself--and without him really promising anything clear in return. Near as I can tell, at least in his dogma, he doesn't really even promise to make his followers more powerful really. All power is to be subverted to Cyric. It's all about making Cyric more powerful.
In the other faiths there is typically some basic set of principles, impulses, or energies that the deity embodies. Waukeen = wealth, Tyr = justice, Tymora = risktaking, Sune = beauty, etc. You can understand why a person might be drawn to them individually.
With Cyric it's hard to understand what he seduces his faithful with. All he really promises is ever more chaos, betrayal, murder, and strife.
Is he somehow off-the-scale charismatic for a god? It doesn't seem so... (Chauntea, the goddess of farming, has higher Cha.)
Another thing that should not work in favor of Cyricism in the Realms is that in such a highly polytheistic world, where most people worship many different gods (or at least several), Cyric forbids worship of any other type. That would turn off a lot of potential worshippers right there--most everyone in Faerun, in fact.
What I do like about Cyric is the human backstory. And that it's something of a challenge to work with his nutter religion. I mean, the god and his faith are evocative material, but I agree with your basic notion that something needs to be done to make him more interesting! |
Edited by - Lemernis on 06 Jan 2007 01:57:11 |
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David E
Seeker
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 09:50:10
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I agree that, as Cyric is currently portrayed, it is hard to imagine that a god of largely insane, sociopathic people could be a Greater God. I can see Cyric as a Lesser God, at the most.
However, if Cyric represented "schemers" more than "psychopaths", I could see him being fully deserving of greater godhood. His portfolio seems to suggest that Cyric is the evil counterpoint to Bane, and I think it does such an intresting portfolio a great disservice to simply portray Cyric as an utterly insane. I mean, Murder, Lies, and Illusion - come on!
I think playing up his role as the Prince of Lies would be a great way to make Cyric more interesting. His clerics should not always be protrayed as pathological liars, but people who deliberately and maliciously spread falsehoods. Perhaps a prestige class that focuses on the misleading and corruption of kingly figures could be a good way to start. Call them "Wormtongues" or something (to steal the term/idea from Tolkien). |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 12:32:51
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That's not far from what a strifeleader is, actually:
"Stirfeleaders are often found supporting rulers with a taste for cruelty and empire-building. They indulge in intrigue in every land so as to spread strife everywhere..." |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 14:37:34
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| I don't see how Cyric can be made more interesting, he's a divine madman, unpredictable at all times |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 22:04:10
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I suppose that if you desire (or need) to tell a lie, and you are desperately hoping it gets believed, it's probably a good idea to send a prayer Cyric's way.
But I have to agree that it's hard to see what's so attractive about his faith that would cause people to become his sincere and devoted followers, but that's long been a cause of wonder regarding many evil deities in the fantasy genre. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 02:29:29
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Well here's an example of how I'm working with Cyric, and perhaps it does deviate a bit from the standard fare:
In Amn, late 1370, I have the Twin Towers of the Eternal Eclipse as an unequivocally heretical sect, mortally at odds with the traditional sect of the Mountain of Skulls. The Twin Towers of the Eternal Eclipse in the Small Teeth has allied itself with the Sythillisian Empire and co-rules the oppulent Amnian city of Esmeltaran. In reaction, the Mountain of Skulls temple of Cyric in the Cloud Peaks has sided with Amn.
The Blackwill Haarken Akhmelere of the Twin Towers professes that Cyric has decreed to him that 1) Cyric's faithful may now march openly in war, and 2) the faithful deserve the spoils of war. Akhmelere preaches that Cyric’s fortune overflows to his most loyal followers. Private ownership of wealth is therefore a reflection of the magnificence of service to Cyric--indeed, proof of it.
Because of this heresy The Mountain of Skulls's Watchful Skull Tynnos Argrim is more determined than ever to seek the destruction of this already hated rival temple in the Small Teeth.
Few of Cyric's worshippers have ever had it so good as the Twin Towers of the Eternal Eclipse's faithful in Esmeltaran. They rule one of the wealthiest cities in all of Faerun, alongside Sythillis' monster races, with the city's Amnian residents as their slaves.
Now, did Cyric actually speak to Akhmelere? Or is Akhmelere simply leading his followers on? If Cyric did speak to Akhmelere, did he say what Akhmelere claims? As we know, Cyric is the Prince of Lies, and he does pit his temples against one another. So it seems likely. But if he is doing so in this case, is Cyric running some deeper agenda? Is a bonafide evolution actualy taking place within the faith, with Akhmelere leading the way? These are sorts of questions the players have to guess at.
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Edited by - Lemernis on 07 Jan 2007 02:38:49 |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
577 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 03:35:43
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| I know! Party Hats and Ka... Damn! someone stole my line! |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 15:38:12
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Okay, here is how I'm going to play Cyric's religion. Tell me if it breaks canon rather than stretching it.
"Cyricism is the religion of self centered narcissists. The religion itself is one that is designed to appeal to everyone with almost no genuine truth about reality inside it. The current and ever being revised dogma of the faith is that Cyric is the only God in Abber-Toril, that he cast down the false gods that are actually demons, and walked amongst them as a mortal for a brief time in order to kill Bhaal along with the other members of the Dark Triad. Take note that none of his priests really believe this. Cyric's priests are a self-serving bunch of murderers, con men, and tricksters whom travel across Toril while spreading poison in the ears of everyone who will listen. One of their chief methods is to create disasters which they offer relief from or frame existing priests for horrible crimes that they uncover. A typical Cyric plan would enslave the leader of a local orc tribe before using one's power to drive them off in an attack. This helps the religion counteract its horrific reputation despite the unison of the gods in condemning it."
"The priests of Cyric benefit primarily from having the confidence of their god. The heady feeling of meeting one's deity in the flesh is something that few priests are ever graced with but some priests of Cyric have weekly meetings with their god. No one seems to realize this doesn't reflect Cyric's care and attention to them but the fact that he micromanages everything in his faith. The quality of his minions is also somewhat lacking even as the Mad God doesn't care. They make surprisingly good use of mind affecting magic and put it forth to debased ends. Rare is the place where Cyricism exists that does not have beautiful young women seemingly suddenly converted to the faith and serving the needs of the followers with a fanatics bent."
"Finally, take note that Cyric is mad but he is not stupid. Cyric is delusional, vain beyond any sense of his genuine worth, prone to psychotic rages, and a megalomaniac. NONE OF THIS prevents him from properly administrating his faith. The seeming parasitic setting of his own churchs actually works well for his faith. His followers paranoia drives them to fits of conversion and hoarding as their fear makes them spread the religion all the faster. Cyricism is not dying on the vine. It is growing rapidly."
My version of the religion is going to be heavily based on the Cult of Set from Conan the Barbarian with its exterior being hippie and nonoffensive while its interior is vile, cannibalistic, and decadent.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 07 Jan 2007 15:39:10 |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 16:57:18
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| Sounds very much in line with what I have read about the faith. I don't see any significant contortions there. I'm not an expert in the subject by any means. But it seems to me you've managed to make it more plausible that the faith would be enjoying success. Good work! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Korginard
Learned Scribe
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 18:12:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Why in the world would anyone want to worship a mad (or seemingly mad) god who simply uses up his followers!
Because the priest of Cyric is FAR too important to be wasted and used up in such a way. Oh sure Cyric does so with others because they are fools and useless to him, but the priest knows his role is far greater.
It seems fitting that a Delusional god is served by Delusional priests does it not?
That accounts for a great deal of Cyrics clergy.
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David E
Seeker
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 19:40:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
My version of the religion is going to be heavily based on the Cult of Set from Conan the Barbarian with its exterior being hippie and nonoffensive while its interior is vile, cannibalistic, and decadent.
Conan the Barbarian was just on AMC the other night, actually.
I really like your conception of Cyricism, Charles. It seems to me that it is only fitting that the religion of liars would itself appear to be a big lie - murderers and liars pretending to be hippies.
I need to reread some of the stuff on Cyric and put some more thought into this. Also need to read the Avatar Trilogy, after everything you guys have said about it. |
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Making Cyric more interesting
