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Blackwill
Seeker
55 Posts |
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Besshalar
Learned Scribe
Finland
166 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 20:53:43
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| I myself am playing a tiefling warlock from Mulhorandi at the moment. I think the key is to keep warlocks VERY rare. As for the pacts, with my character the pact was made by my half-fiend great grandfather and the powers are hereditary, although I have an idea for a campaign where all this will come back to haunt him and the rest of the party. |
The large print giveth , and the small print taketh away.
-Tom Waits |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2006 : 22:56:25
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| The only reference to warlocks in existing books is a single one I made in Dragons of Faerun. It's a quote by Pherix Traeleth, Master Warlock of the Sildeyuir. I left it suitably vague so people can introduce the class (or not introduce it) at their leisure. With increasing requests for this sort of thing, there may be some more references and information forthcoming on other classes, though what or where I cannot say. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
Edited by - EytanBernstein on 16 Nov 2006 22:56:59 |
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Blackwill
Seeker
55 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 05:35:39
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| Thanks for that piece of information. It's muchly appreciated. |
~Blackwill |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 12:17:17
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Sorcerers and warlocks strike me as too similar in conception.
We already have tieflings born of demons. And Races of the Dragon outlines dragon-descended creatures.
Rather than basing the sorcerer and warlock class's arcane powers on bloodlines, I would prefer that sorcerers be patterned after shamans (think Carlos Castaneda) who harness energies via their will, and can be of any alignment; and that this new warlock thing be something more like a dark priest in league with devils or demons, whose powers are granted via a kind of compact relating to their soul, and always evil by definition. In other words, base the two classes more on their real world mythological archetypes. This has nothing to do with what WotC has come up with of course, just one man's view. |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 12:54:17
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| remember ... Warlock aren't by defualt Evil ... there is also a fair share of CG and CN Warlocks |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 13:19:58
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The only Warlock I have come across (please bear inmind I don't play Spellslingers) is or was the Witch from 2e in the Complete Wizards Handbook Rules Supplement. The Male versions of the witch are more commonly called Warlocks.
As Warlocks being too close to the current Sorcerer class in 3.5e, I don't think so as they seem to be a more Historical hubble bubble boil and trouble type of stereotype such as " May the flea's of a thousand camels infest you manhood " type of cursing and "Be-witching" mysterious figure, than the current Sor class. Well in my opinion.
I would suggest to Blackwill to get hold of a copy of The Complete Wizards Handbook and check it out! if you have trouble finding one I have a copy listed on ebay for sale!
Delz
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I'm Back! |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 13:22:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Sian
remember ... Warlock aren't by defualt Evil ... there is also a fair share of CG and CN Warlocks
No, no, heh! I'm aware that the warlock class isn't evil-only. I'm essentially saying that if I were the game developer, that's how I would have approached them in order to differentiate them more clearly from sorcerers. In their most basic conception I think warlocks are kind of redundant (with sorcerers). And I see no need to have the arcane powers of either sorcerers or warlocks derive from an ancestry.
Having said that, I'm not sure how healthy it would be to have impressionable youths roleplaying a warlock that's based more strongly on the real world mythological archetype. So perhaps it's for the best as it is. |
Edited by - Lemernis on 20 Nov 2006 13:26:01 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 13:33:41
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Warlocks could bring back some mystery and flair to certain races of the Realms, some more, some less cultured ones. First, e.g. goblin or hobgoblin casters could gain a more nastier look than simply being adepts, "witches", sorcerers, or the like. Second, as with the hexblade, warlocks might add some mystery to the somewhat pecked back drow surface raiding parties. If these classes are uncommon among the other races and amongst the players that is.
Essentially, a "warlock" could be viewed as a "witch-type" of character and about those, not much is known in sourcebooks and novels alike, I would assume.
BTW, "warlock" usually means a "male witch". A "female warlock" would pose a slight problem in understanding for those who like a bit of culture and flair in their game, and it is much the same with a "female monk", who would actually be a "nun". Going etymological ...
Old English wærloga "traitor, liar, enemy," from wær "faith, a compact" (cf. Old High German wara "truth," Old Norse varar "solemn promise, vow;" see very; cf. also Varangian) + agent noun related to leogan "to lie" (see lie (v.1)). Original primary sense seems to have been "oath-breaker;" given special application to the devil (c.1000), but also used of giants and cannibals. Meaning "one in league with the devil" is recorded from c.1300. Ending in -ck and meaning "male equivalent of witch" (1568) are from Scottish. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 13:48:49
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Yeah, in real world mythology their powers derived from being in league with the devil, basically. Their powers are demonic.
Shamans, on the other hand, are typically village healers who intervene with the supernatural world on the community's behalf. They often deal with helpful or Good-aligned spirits, etc. They're more of a supernatural jack-of-all-trades, whereas warlocks are specialized on the evil side, intent upon collecting souls for their dark masters.
I'm looking at it from the vantage of where they draw their powers from, and what purposes they have for using those powers, rather than the specific skills and feats, etc. I think the two classes would be more compelling that way. But, again, I doubt WotC would want to deal with even harsher criticisms about D&D than already exists if they went that route. (And not without good reason, it is a game that a lot of teenagers play.) |
Edited by - Lemernis on 20 Nov 2006 14:29:27 |
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Besshalar
Learned Scribe
Finland
166 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 14:07:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Yeah, in real world mythology their powers derived from being in league with the devil, basically. Their powers are demonic.
Well that's the western judeo-christian way of looking at it if it wasn't an angel or ghost then it was a demon. As is stated they can also get their powers from fey creatures and such. |
The large print giveth , and the small print taketh away.
-Tom Waits |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 14:09:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Besshalar
quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
Yeah, in real world mythology their powers derived from being in league with the devil, basically. Their powers are demonic.
Well that's the western judeo-christian way of looking at it if it wasn't an angel or ghost then it was a demon. As is stated they can also get their powers from fey creatures and such.
A warlock is a western Judeo-Christian based archetype.
A shaman is what you're thinking of, which is more cross-cultural. |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 21:57:20
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| To be more accurate, warlocks are a Christian archetype, not a Judeo-Christian one. The devil plays an extremely minor role in Jewish literature and warlocks are pretty much nonexistant. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 23:03:16
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| True. I think when people use that term they're usually refering to the combination of Old and New Testament, i.e., that the Torah is embraced by Christians. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2006 : 23:23:50
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Uh hum,
these last few replies are threading on some thin ice. Maybe we need to get off the current topic and return this to a FR topic. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 00:16:57
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It's a discussion of archetypes used in the Forgotten Realms and their roots in real world mythology. We would not be using any of these concepts found in the game but not for the mythology that is their source. But I hear you, and I also don't intend for it to become a discussion about religion.
To restate it in FR terms, if you want to call this new class a 'warlock', in such a way as to meaningfully differentiate it from a sorcerer, wouldn't it make more sense to a) have them draw their power in some way from demons and devils (see Monster Manual), 2) seek to collect souls for their masters (yes, souls exist in FR, see Manual of the Planes), 3) be evil by definition? Because that's what a 'warlock' is.
That is actually very different from the archetype of a shaman, which is essentially what I'm asserting would provide a better model for sorcerer.
Ottherwise, as it stands, what's the point, really, of creating a slightly different type of sorcerer? That's all the FR warlock is near as I can tell. And again, my emphasis is not skills and feats but on understanding and roleplaying a character. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 00:22:48
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The word 'warlock' doesn't correspond directly to demon-summoner, but for the sake of argument, that's very much a fictional image of a wizard as imagined by Christians trying to demonize other people's magic.
Are there demon-dealing mages in the Realms? Yes. Should some of them have the warlock class? If you want (I don't see the need). |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 03:39:01
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Heh, when you say fictional... I'm talking mythology. Which is storytelling. Which in turn is fiction. Mythology is a deeper layer of possibly universal meaning to fantastic tales that get retold again and again, generation after generation, in a variety of cultures. I'm not talking so mcuh about literal figures in history who may have been male and practiced witchcraft. We don't really know that much about whatever the reality was of all that.
A warlock as demon 'summoner' isn't quite what I was getting at... As I'm understanding what a warlock is, it would be that their power was granted by demons (masters whom they serve), in exhange for gathering souls for them.
I realize that we needn't get hung up on the word itself. I guess my main point is that in my view the class is basically redundant with a sorcerer. I would like to see it differentiated far more, and significantly different on a conceptual level. But since the class is what it is, rather than what I'd prefer it to be, it's kind of a moot point. Well, anyway, this is what we have discussion boards for. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 03:45:12
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| I don't see the need either--many of these extra base classes (not to mention PrCs) seem superfluous. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 21:35:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Uh hum,
these last few replies are threading on some thin ice. Maybe we need to get off the current topic and return this to a FR topic.
Of course. We'll try to be more careful. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 01:22:43
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| By the way, although I realize warlocks need not be evil (and this is pointed out constantly, especially on the NWN2 boards), I do find it telling that out of five available alignments for this class, three of them are evil. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 02:06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
The only reference to warlocks in existing books is a single one I made in Dragons of Faerun. It's a quote by Pherix Traeleth, Master Warlock of the Sildeyuir. I left it suitably vague so people can introduce the class (or not introduce it) at their leisure. With increasing requests for this sort of thing, there may be some more references and information forthcoming on other classes, though what or where I cannot say.
Theres also a Warlock in Neverwinter Nights 2 |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 09:44:32
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| but since it is a CRPG it aren't canonic |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 14:38:47
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| I'll bet NWN2 is the basis for most people's interest in it these days. That is, playing such a character in a NWN2 persistent world. Trying to keep the gameworld in line with FR canon, etc. I know that's Blackwill's interest over at ALFA, at least, and mine as well, for Exodus. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 15:43:00
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I'm not going to say anything overt -- and nothing I haven't said already -- but for those who are interested in warlocks in a narrative/novel setting, I may have just the book for you . . . but you'll have to wait until March. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 22:06:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I'm not going to say anything overt -- and nothing I haven't said already -- but for those who are interested in warlocks in a narrative/novel setting, I may have just the book for you . . . but you'll have to wait until March.
Cheers
Oh my, I can't imagine what book that might be. 
Cool! |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kazzaroth
Learned Scribe
Finland
104 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2006 : 11:40:04
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I would imagine the warlocks are liek the name suggest but the pact what the evil sorcerrors make whit devils and demons etc expands severall generations. I think many had agreed to say; "May seven generation of my offpsring serve thee" to enforce the pact and so any offspring kinda 'heritages' the pact and in a way he/she is boligated to fullfill it but because the invidual was not even exchisting when the pact was made there is no compulsion to 'fullfill' the pact.
Reason also why later generation warlocks still can be able channel their warlock powers despite they break their pacts whit their patrons is because patron honestly said is not the source of the powers, but is rather middle man and all alter generation warlocks gets connected to the source whitout him. So it would be reasonable to asume that any 'patrons' of warlock's ancestors would want seduce warlocks into darkness for greater power to serve them.
But in end if warlock goes to rogue it does not matter because the warlock is most cases (earlier it was always until I saw PrC called Enligthened Spirit from Complete Mage) forever tainted by the powers what he haves and so is later generations also and all warlocks hear the fiendish dark whispers to do evil deeds and have strange twisted desire do them (and so warlock haves similar personall conflict like tieflings have inside them). So if even in seven generation of warlocks there is two rogue warlocks eventually one later generations will turn bad and it is part of ultimate portfolio of fiendish patron; Spread evil among mortals and corrupt them.
At least this is my opinion of the matter at least. Warlocks may present a rare breed of offsprings of very evil sorceress or sorcerer who have dealed alot whit fiends and I recall sorcerous powers are always heritaged by blood. So warlock is simply said a tainted sorcerer. |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2006 : 23:06:36
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That's great stuff, that definitely makes them a more interesting class.
At least make them decidely evil. It's not a perfect analogy, but to some extent as a blackguard is to a paladin, so a warlock would be to a sorcerer. Someone who has definitely gone down an evil path.
The wrinkle of a warlock making a deal that involves service by his descendants is very fertile ground for story and roleplaying material! Although if all souls are supposed to be created with free will in FR then I guess that's problematic. |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2006 : 15:41:42
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| That's where the story elements come. The souls do have free will. That doesn't mean that the original supplier of the power won't come and try to exact his/her due. Familial curses have always existed in FR (for example, Kelemvor's animalistic family curse, if my cranial wires aren't crosses). People do break them, but usually not before a lot of pain and suffering occurs. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2006 : 17:25:57
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| Yeah, with free will but 'tainted' by the pact--or tortured, actually, if the soul rejects those dark impulses. Maybe rebelling against the agreement forged by the ancestor with a demon results in any number of terrible curses, or reduction of powers, or even outight loss of spellcasting ability. I guess this would be kind of a mirror-image of a paladin's fall. Although here the warlock isn't bound by his own personal oath, it is the oath of an ancestor that has bound his fate. |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2006 : 13:04:53
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| For me, warlocks are limited to NPCs, or more specifically villians. There are only 3 known and they are powerful behind the scenes type bad guys. |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Warlocks in the Realms
