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Ilztfryn Claddghym
Seeker
Canada
60 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 21:39:34
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| I would have to agree with the Entreri fans here. There is no greater killer in the realms. He has matched Drizzt (one of the best swordsmen in the realms no matter what anyone says) everytime and honestly empires cower at the name Entreri. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 21:48:28
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Yes, though being one of the best swordsmen in the Realms (despite his relatively low levels) doesn't really necessarily make Entreri the best assassin.
I think part of this has to do with the definition of assassin. What is our criteria here? Entreri doesn't seem like he's particularly stealthy. He just tracks down the guy whom someone wants killed and then kills him in battle or just cuts the fellow down.
That doesn't make him a Bad assassin. However, James Bond is an assassin but I don't think anyone ever would accuse him of being subtle about it.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 22:44:18
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I'll have to respectfully disagree with those who think Artemis is the greatest assassin (and for that matter, those who think Drizzt is the greatest swordsman). He's the most well known among readers, but that doesn't mean much in the actual setting, and...
(highlight for spoilers for Road of the Patriarch):
Artemis has gotten soft, simple as that, and it's highly possible that as of RoP he has tentatively quit his assassin career, at least if you agree with RAS instead of the FRCS about this character. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 23:30:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I imagine most experienced killers were wiped out when Bhaal's spell annihilated them in the ToT.
Not quite.
This was the result of a retcon. In the FRCS, on pg. 264, it states that only the assassins that worshiped Bhaal were killed, and thus, not ALL assassins were eradicated during the demise of Bhaal.
Additionally, it is important to note that only those characters in the Realms who had assassin class would've actually died (which means any unstatted characters before this time could have easily survived the event).
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 23:40:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I'll have to respectfully disagree with those who think Artemis is the greatest assassin (and for that matter, those who think Drizzt is the greatest swordsman). He's the most well known among readers, but that doesn't mean much in the actual setting, and...
(highlight for spoilers for Road of the Patriarch):
Artemis has gotten soft, simple as that, and it's highly possible that as of RoP he has tentatively quit his assassin career, at least if you agree with RAS instead of the FRCS about this character.
In the case of Artemis, Drizzt managed to prove himself against a Balor in single combat and also several extraordinarily talented characters in Menzoberrazan. It's a measure by 'feats' that puts Drizzt so high. Artemis is nearly as good as Drizzt so we have a measure for both of them.
Now, technically, if we were measuring by feats then Gareth would be the greatest warrior in all the Realms. Despite never being in a novel, the character handed Zhengyi the Witch King and Orcus their asses. That's unparalleled in the history of the Realms.
Azoun would also be up there for the fact he went mano-a-mano with an Great Old Wyrm Red. I, for one, don't like putting Gareth or Azoun up there despite their great valor because little emphasis is placed on their sword skill but just their raw prowess as warriors.
And Highlight for Spoilers...
Artemis has actually improved as far as I'm concerned given I doubt the Old Artemis could have defeated a Dracolich or involved himself in so many battles. Whether he's retired as a warrior or not, I think he's actually improved as a warrior for the gaining of his ability to feel.
He has been retired as a 'kill for hire' for sometime though |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 23:41:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Not quite.
This was the result of a retcon. In the FRCS, on pg. 264, it states that only the assassins that worshiped Bhaal were killed, and thus, not ALL assassins were eradicated during the demise of Bhaal.
Additionally, it is important to note that only those characters in the Realms who had assassin class would've actually died (which means any unstatted characters before this time could have easily survived the event).
Even given that, doesn't that strike you as likely killing off most of the good ones?
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Walls
Acolyte
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30 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 23:42:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Zimme
Lucky that people have differnt opinons, or else our lifes would be a little less interesting.
But yes I also agree with Ranin, calimport's most dangerous assasin through the times Artemis Entreri, is up there on the list. But in people's respective campaigns there might be npc's or char's more skilled in the shadow arts than Entreri. And yes the uttermost skilled preform their killings in absolute anonymity.
And Genis, do people think that R.A Salvatore is a bad writer??!! you cant argue with success!
Britney Spears had success. I can indeed argue.
Though... Salvatore remains amongst my favorite current authors. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 00:00:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
In the case of Artemis, Drizzt managed to prove himself against a Balor in single combat and also several extraordinarily talented characters in Menzoberrazan. It's a measure by 'feats' that puts Drizzt so high. Artemis is nearly as good as Drizzt so we have a measure for both of them.
Only until you step outside the scope of the novels.
quote:
Now, technically, if we were measuring by feats then Gareth would be the greatest warrior in all the Realms. Despite never being in a novel, the character handed Zhengyi the Witch King and Orcus their asses. That's unparalleled in the history of the Realms.
Gareth did that with a whole party of people, not single-handedly. Should one character receive all credit for that? And "unparalleled in the history of the Realms" seems like a hard-to-prove statement to me.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 06 Jan 2007 00:02:12 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 00:07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Not quite.
This was the result of a retcon. In the FRCS, on pg. 264, it states that only the assassins that worshiped Bhaal were killed, and thus, not ALL assassins were eradicated during the demise of Bhaal.
Additionally, it is important to note that only those characters in the Realms who had assassin class would've actually died (which means any unstatted characters before this time could have easily survived the event).
Even given that, doesn't that strike you as likely killing off most of the good ones?
I wouldn't think an assassin would need to be stat'd and referenced fully in order to be considered "good." Certainly, they are the more popular assassins in the Realms, though I tend to believe that most of the Realms' more deadly assassins are those who still lurk in the shadows and have yet to receive any real attention in either FR fiction or the Realmslore.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 00:09:04
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Well I'm going by the assumption of what we've read thus far.
Theoretically, Zummy the 30th level Half Orc could kill a Lich a day every day for 5 years and we'd never hear about it.
However, the general assumption I have is that what we read and is listed in the history of the Realms is it until its shown otherwise.
The Bloodstone Modules are to my knowledge the only time a mortal has ever spanked a 30th level Lich and two Demon Princes even at the lowest level for running it.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 00:11:55
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quote:
I wouldn't think an assassin would need to be stat'd and referenced fully in order to be considered "good." Certainly, they are the more popular assassins in the Realms, though I tend to believe that most of the Realms' more deadly assassins are those who still lurk in the shadows and have yet to receive any real attention in either FR fiction or the Realmslore.
While possible, we've got an extensive detailing of most of the groups in the Forgotten Realms. Everyone from the inner halls of the Knights of the Shield to the secrets of the Eldath Veruuna.
I tend to think that until stated otherwise, we actually know most of the powerful figures of the Realms.
That is unless someone just asks Ed and he'll bring into existence 10 or more even more fascinating characters ;-)
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 00:17:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
I wouldn't think an assassin would need to be stat'd and referenced fully in order to be considered "good." Certainly, they are the more popular assassins in the Realms, though I tend to believe that most of the Realms' more deadly assassins are those who still lurk in the shadows and have yet to receive any real attention in either FR fiction or the Realmslore.
While possible, we've got an extensive detailing of most of the groups in the Forgotten Realms. Everyone from the inner halls of the Knights of the Shield to the secrets of the Eldath Veruuna.
I tend to think that until stated otherwise, we actually know most of the powerful figures of the Realms.
I disagree with that, for the most part.
Such characters should only be taken as a sampling of what the rich environment of the Realms has to offer in terms of well-crafted characters.
Just because we haven't heard about the most deadliest assassins in the Realms, doesn't mean there aren't any. It may mean that they're doing their "jobs" so well that unexplained deaths are all that remain to mark their passage.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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Edited by - The Sage on 06 Jan 2007 00:18:14 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 00:23:19
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Well yes, but they're hiding from the people of the Realms, not the Readers of Ao's Realm ;-)
You're welcome to your opinion but in canon FR, I don't assume there's a massive bunch of secret societies other than the ones in Lords of Darkness. My assumption was they were pretty much it.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 00:46:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The Bloodstone Modules are to my knowledge the only time a mortal has ever spanked a 30th level Lich and two Demon Princes even at the lowest level for running it.
Like I said before, Gareth did not do that alone. He had a whole GROUP of people helping him. You make it sound like Gareth killed both these guys by himself and on the same night, just before dinner. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 00:49:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Well yes, but they're hiding from the people of the Realms, not the Readers of Ao's Realm ;-)
You're welcome to your opinion but in canon FR, I don't assume there's a massive bunch of secret societies other than the ones in Lords of Darkness. My assumption was they were pretty much it.
Really? That's a darn small number of secret societies for Faerun, then. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 01:00:42
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How do you figure?
I often figure it's rather silly of the Thayans to do their magical network when the Zhents already have their vast Illuminati-Style conspiracy of marketeering and death. Then there's the Knights of the Shield interfering with that too.
You don't need that much overlap.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 01:28:45
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Secret societies are formed based on the needs and wants of their members--people don't stop forming them just so other societies won't feel "crowded".
Remember too that there are different types and sizes of secret societies--they don't have to be vast, world-stretching groups. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 01:49:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Well yes, but they're hiding from the people of the Realms, not the Readers of Ao's Realm ;-)
You're welcome to your opinion but in canon FR, I don't assume there's a massive bunch of secret societies other than the ones in Lords of Darkness. My assumption was they were pretty much it.
Really? That's a darn small number of secret societies for Faerun, then.
Especially since there's other organizations that are not in Lord of Darkness. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 02:00:44
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Indeed.
We've had plenty of odd references to secretive orders/powergroups/other-related-organisations that have sometimes received nothing more than a brief sentence or passing mention in the Realmslore.
Consider also, how many of the older divine and deity-related orders and organisations (especially those connected with evil powers) detailed in F&A that exist as nothing more than a one sentence reference.
There's still plenty left to explore, which is why I consider only the in-depth coverage we've seen so far to be nothing more than a mere sampling.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - The Sage on 06 Jan 2007 02:02:54 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 02:27:43
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quote:
Like I said before, Gareth did not do that alone. He had a whole GROUP of people helping him. You make it sound like Gareth killed both these guys by himself and on the same night, just before dinner.
Well even if Gareth did it with Olwen, Grandmaster Kane, and his Ranger Queen then there's still a pretty large amount of credit to spread around the groups.
I also don't think there's anything wrong with capping the skills by saying Artemis or Drizzt are amongst the best. That adds context for the rest of the Realms to be judged by. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 03:57:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Consider also, how many of the older divine and deity-related orders and organisations (especially those connected with evil powers) detailed in F&A that exist as nothing more than a one sentence reference.
Heck, even those "scheming cabals of nobles" that have appeared in Ed Greenwood's recent books fall into the catergory of "secret society". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 03:59:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Well even if Gareth did it with Olwen, Grandmaster Kane, and his Ranger Queen then there's still a pretty large amount of credit to spread around the groups.
Christine's a druid, and Gareth has more people in his little posse than that.
quote:
I also don't think there's anything wrong with capping the skills by saying Artemis or Drizzt are amongst the best. That adds context for the rest of the Realms to be judged by.
I think the rest of the Realms are what those characters should be judged by. And as far as I can tell, they don't necessarily come out on top. They only get mentioned so often because they are popular characters. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 04:15:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I think the rest of the Realms are what those characters should be judged by. And as far as I can tell, they don't necessarily come out on top. They only get mentioned so often because they are popular characters.
I'll take your word for the Bloodstone Gang.
But answer me this, is there any reason why they shouldn't be? Who exactly is supposed to be better?
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 06:18:46
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This thread was initially discussing who the most dangerous assasin the in Forgotten Realms would be. This can lead to some interesting discussions, although it is dangerously close to a "who is the best" thread which we have before seen as very problematic here at Candlekeep. The fact of the matter is that there are indeed too many variables in most cases to come up with a definitive numerical listing, without making such discussions more specific.
That having been said, comparing the various ablilities of serveral known assasins, as well as several assasin's guilds is somewhat within the spirit of the initial topic, and can also lead to some interesting discussions.
Unfortunately, again, we seem to be veering far afield. This thread is not a discussion of who the best swordsmen in the Realms are. We have had those discussions, and more or less settled them as much as they can be settled. This is not a discussion on weather there are secret societies in the Realms yet unheard of, or the validity of already existing organizations in the Realms.
This is also not a discussion of Gareth Dragonbane and his fellow adventurers from the Bloodstone Lands, nor of their relative level of power or importance in the Realms.
This topic has become exceptionally scattershot.
Finally, this topic is not about wheather a core group of iconic characters in the Realms define the setting, or are merely representitive of it. Permutations of this same arguement have sprung up, over and over again. This thread is not the place for this discussion.
If we don't, as fellow scribes, have any more to say about the relative talents of various assasins or groups that might contain them, then let us please leave off of various, unrelated discussions that have bled over into far too many scrolls lately.
Please, before we post, lets take a second to look at what the topic is, and think about if our comments are really suited to the original topic, or if they are best suited to a new thread to contain the discussion, or perhaps even better, directed specifically at a scribe that might have posited something that you, as one of the scribes of the keep, feel compelled to respond to.
Thank you, and lets us please move on to the topic at hand, or to discussions that we find worthy of our thoughts and efforts. |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1073 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 10:44:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I'll have to respectfully disagree with those who think Artemis is the greatest assassin (and for that matter, those who think Drizzt is the greatest swordsman). He's the most well known among readers, but that doesn't mean much in the actual setting, and...
(highlight for spoilers for Road of the Patriarch):
Artemis has gotten soft, simple as that, and it's highly possible that as of RoP he has tentatively quit his assassin career, at least if you agree with RAS instead of the FRCS about this character.
I totally agree with you… Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
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Tanks Arkhaedun for getting us back to the topic: The most dangerous assassin in Forgotten Realms
The top 5 list - The most dangerous cutthroats on Toril
Grandfather of Assassins
Jaezred Chaulssin
Artemis Entreri
The Calishite assassin Thyruin of the White Flowers
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Assassins (guilds / bands)i know of.
The Assassins of Zakhara (Assassin Mountain)
The Night Masks, a band of thieves, assassins - The Faceless
Fire Knives
Cult of Set
Shade Council
What about The Shadow Thieves
Do the The Twisted Rune have any assassins ?
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Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master
Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 11:18:16
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Assassins are counted among the agents who serve the Twisted Rune, yes.
One assassin of particular note, the LE vampire Mankar Ottal, has been said to have "achieved great ignominy" as a slayer.
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 11:51:45
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| Mauzzkyl Jaezred, no doubt, great wyrm drow-dragon Sor 13/Asn 5 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 14:12:22
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| My impression is that there are many, many assassin organizations throughout the Realms mentioned in the source materials, about which scant information is provided. I like the fact that they're left undetailed, though. Because it's then up to the DM to develop them further. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2007 : 16:56:07
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Good point, Arkhaedun, sorry for veering off topic.
I guess with so much unknown about the Realms, we'll never know who the most dangerous is.
Though I do think if we wanted to establish some criteria for it, that we might have an idea who the best KNOWN assassin is. Like highest levels, coldest personality, best methodology and so on.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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The most dangerous assassin in forgotten realms
