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Haman
Seeker
USA
60 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 15:28:53
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I'm not quite satisfied with some of the weapons they've chosen for various deities in the Realms, and thought this might be a good place to discuss alternates and sensible replacements. This isn't a rant on "mistakes" and how we should get WotC to change them, just changes I'll be making to my personal Realms games and discussion with you all on what you might think would work better.
Here goes:
Mystra: Shuriken. I never understood this one much, as most people of her faith wouldn't really have access or exposure to these exotic, Kozakura-esque weapons. Sure, it's a cool 'star', but again it just seemed too exotic. I'm leaing towards Quarterstaff.
Tymora: Again, Shuriken. I always thought that Tymora was kind of the patron deity of Adventurers. Common weapon of adventurers? Long Sword.
Mask: Long Sword. I thought Rogues didn't even get Long Sword proficiency? I know, I know, the ToT Mask = Cyrics Long Sword cool storyline....but seeing how Cyric snapped his back/blade, if anything he'd have a psychological aversion to that weapon...My choice? Dagger.
Gwaeron Windstrom: Greatsword. The god of rangers and trackers favors Greatswords. huh. I'll vote for Long Bow.
Waukeen: Nunchakus. This one I'm really missing and can't see much connection whatsoever. But no biggie. I'm leaning towards maybe whip...
Nobanion: Heavy Pick. Not too bad, but I think I'm changing it to clawed bracer (Lion God, rowrrr!). (might have a player who is a cleric of Nobanion, so any other thoughts are more than welcome!)
I think thats it for now. Any ideas/discussion would be great, and thanks!
-Good gaming!
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Some people say we gamers have no lives....I think we have too many. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 16:46:43
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I'v always felt the same way...especially if the favoured weapon requires an exotic feat to use  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 16:53:41
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Agreed.
For Waukeen I'd even suggest a coin filled leatherbag seconding as club... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1076 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 17:18:46
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| Have to agree also. There's times that I looked at the favored weapon and thought they seemed a bit out of place or strange for that deity. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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turox
Learned Scribe
USA
145 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 17:20:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Haman
Mystra: Shuriken. I never understood this one much, as most people of her faith wouldn't really have access or exposure to these exotic, Kozakura-esque weapons. Sure, it's a cool 'star', but again it just seemed too exotic. I'm leaing towards Quarterstaff.
For me I would say something like a morningSTAR
Tymora: Again, Shuriken. I always thought that Tymora was kind of the patron deity of Adventurers. Common weapon of adventurers? Long Sword.
I could see a Shuriken. It's a luck type of weapon as even the best can mess up and not stick it in them.
Waukeen: Nunchakus. This one I'm really missing and can't see much connection whatsoever. But no biggie. I'm leaning towards maybe whip...
This one I can see, Nunchaku were originally a farming tool. They were for separating grain from their husks.
Just adding my 2copper.  |
Turox Antas Dragonslayer -
"People will believe anything they want to believe, or fear to believe."
Wizard's First Rule: Chapter 36, Page #397, US Hard Cover (revealed by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander).
Explanation by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander: "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People’s heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 17:23:14
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| But Turox, Waukeen isn't a farmer/nature deity.... she's the deity of wealth. I think you are thinking of Chauntea.... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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turox
Learned Scribe
USA
145 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 18:43:01
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Kuje, yes I am/was thinking of Chauntea so many dieties and not enough caffeine on the planet to keep me from opening my mouth. So Chauntea's favorite weapon should be the Nunchaku. :)
Thanks Kuje for setting me straight. (AND) Sorry Haman didn't mean to butt in where I shouldn't have. |
Turox Antas Dragonslayer -
"People will believe anything they want to believe, or fear to believe."
Wizard's First Rule: Chapter 36, Page #397, US Hard Cover (revealed by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander).
Explanation by Zeddicus Zu'l Zorander: "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People’s heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 19:37:14
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quote:
Originally posted by turox
Kuje, yes I am/was thinking of Chauntea so many dieties and not enough caffeine on the planet to keep me from opening my mouth. So Chauntea's favorite weapon should be the Nunchaku. :)
Thanks Kuje for setting me straight. (AND) Sorry Haman didn't mean to butt in where I shouldn't have.
It's okay. I was just making sure that that was what you were thinking. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 02:29:08
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| Count me in on these changes. None make any sense. |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Haman
Seeker
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 02:44:12
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No problem Turox, didn't take it wrong at all.
Chauntea's weapon, I believe, is the Scythe. I think it's good enough and an apt representation of the Agriculture Goddess, as would be Flail or Nunchaku.
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Some people say we gamers have no lives....I think we have too many. |
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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe
Finland
143 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 11:42:14
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| I was thinking Shurikens for Waukeen. Maybe made from coins or made to look like coins (Think of sharp edged coins). This thought came to me while reading "The Scions of Arrabar" trilogy where the hero (who was in service of Waukeen) used a spell to make a magical swarm of coins. |
I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.
If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling? |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 12:09:02
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| I can understand, in a way, shurikens for Mystra, it at least has some symbolism, what else should a cleric of Mystra's favored weapon be? Spellcomponents? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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martynq
Seeker
United Kingdom
90 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 12:13:49
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I'd often tend to go back to what was in Faiths & Avatars. I think the quarterstaff is shown as a weapon associated with Mystra in that source. (IMO, specifying shuriken as her favoured weapon was just the designers being forced to pander to those who think martial arts are somehow "cool".)
Martyn |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36916 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 12:32:49
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quote:
Originally posted by martynq
I'd often tend to go back to what was in Faiths & Avatars. I think the quarterstaff is shown as a weapon associated with Mystra in that source. (IMO, specifying shuriken as her favoured weapon was just the designers being forced to pander to those who think martial arts are somehow "cool".)
Martyn
Of course. It couldn't have anything at all to do with the fact that a shuriken is a throwing star, and Mystra's symbol is stars... And it's entirely realistic to think that since the weapon was developed in the East in the real world, then no one else could have possibly thought of it. Especially someone inspired to come up with something based on their deity's holy symbol... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 Oct 2006 13:21:04 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 13:41:51
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The problem with shurikens as well as other culture-specific weapon-names, at least to me, is that they are closely associated with the same culture on earth.
A sword is a sword, a Zweihänder is a very specific sword that came from Germany.
I am well aware of the symbolism, the word "shuriken" irks me more since it has the "asian" connotation to us, would it be throwing stars, we'd still know what the bleeding hell it is but the connotation would be gone.
I know that to change every word into something that is culture-specific to the Realms would, all in all, force us to write in an entirely different language.
I have the same gripe with other weapon-names and expressions. i.e. Crusade, guisarme, even claymore...
call me nitpicky |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 13:52:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
The problem with shurikens as well as other culture-specific weapon-names, at least to me, is that they are closely associated with the same culture on earth.
A sword is a sword, a Zweihänder is a very specific sword that came from Germany.
I am well aware of the symbolism, the word "shuriken" irks me more since it has the "asian" connotation to us, would it be throwing stars, we'd still know what the bleeding hell it is but the connotation would be gone.
I know that to change every word into something that is culture-specific to the Realms would, all in all, force us to write in an entirely different language.
I have the same gripe with other weapon-names and expressions. i.e. Crusade, guisarme, even claymore...
call me nitpicky
Hey nitpicky
I don't think it would be far fetched to think a culture with no "asian connections" would develop an aerodynamic throwing blade i.e. star |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 14:01:36
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I didn't say it would be impossible, but I seriously doubt, if such a weapon had been made in a Germanic kingdom a few centuries back it would most definitely not have been named "shuriken".
There is no doubt in my mind about the similarities of weaponry around the globe, but the names were different. I know this (the naming) has been done to get people on a common denominator and all understand what is meant, but specific "cultural" elements should not be used, IMO |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 14:23:42
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Dwarven nitpicky.
Jokes apart, I use dagger as Mystra´s favored weapon. To me, it´s much more related with wizards, rituals and spells - but I can see the conection between the "throwing stars" and Mystra, too. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 16:36:23
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| Throwing stars is a good weapon for the priest, it not only symbolizes Mystra, but also makes a point on magic itself: you can fight someone from afar. A cleric of Mystra, in my opinion, is the sort that will emulat a wizard's lifestyle, hence he will not wade into melee unless really necessary. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 16:38:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Throwing stars is a good weapon for the priest, it not only symbolizes Mystra, but also makes a point on magic itself: you can fight someone from afar. A cleric of Mystra, in my opinion, is the sort that will emulat a wizard's lifestyle, hence he will not wade into melee unless really necessary.
I would make the staff the favoured weapon for Mystra, and Azuth...it's the most classic symbol of a spellcaster, a very practical weapon and everyone knows the number of magic staves out there |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 18:09:49
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Throwing stars is a good weapon for the priest, it not only symbolizes Mystra, but also makes a point on magic itself: you can fight someone from afar. A cleric of Mystra, in my opinion, is the sort that will emulat a wizard's lifestyle, hence he will not wade into melee unless really necessary.
I would make the staff the favoured weapon for Mystra, and Azuth...it's the most classic symbol of a spellcaster, a very practical weapon and everyone knows the number of magic staves out there
I agree. It should be the staff. |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36916 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 21:02:26
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| I disagree... The staff is the symbol of those who use magic. Mystra is magic, so it's not as good a fit for her as it is for Azuth. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 21:55:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I disagree... The staff is the symbol of those who use magic. Mystra is magic, so it's not as good a fit for her as it is for Azuth.
I'd agree with that...but I still think the throwing stars are impracticle and cheesy...so that is why I still think it should be the staff...
or maybe some reinforced tome, liek a spellbook, they could go around wacking people a la Monty Python's Holy Grail  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36916 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 22:42:31
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I disagree... The staff is the symbol of those who use magic. Mystra is magic, so it's not as good a fit for her as it is for Azuth.
I'd agree with that...but I still think the throwing stars are impracticle and cheesy...so that is why I still think it should be the staff...
or maybe some reinforced tome, liek a spellbook, they could go around wacking people a la Monty Python's Holy Grail
If they were impractical, I doubt we'd know about them. Useless weapons tend to be forgotten... The fact that we know of them, and that they are so prominent in the Oriental combat lore, speaks well of their usefulness. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 23:02:33
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Just to throw some fuel on the fire about shurikens and western-esque cultures . . . in the Realms we know that drow apparently have "throwing stars" shaped like spiders, because Liriel enchants some of these weapons in the books that feature her.
And while it has nothing to do with the Realms, in the movie Willow in one scene we see a throwing star that lodges in a cart next to Madmartigan's face, and while it is clearly a throwing star, it doesn't have the typical asian design to it (just a plain iron four pointed star for throwing). All of the cultures portrayed in that movie are very western-esque.
I will say, though, that I understand that "shuriken" being the term used is kind of jarring. Generic throwing star might serve better. Oh, and if you don't like nunchuku as a term, you could always use "flind bars" since flinds in 1st edition used very "chuck-like" weapons of this type. |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 23:03:58
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| I recall seeing someone, somewhere, realistically showing throwing stars are as practical as well balanced throwing daggers. The early ancestors of the weapon resembled metal spikes, the rough dimensions of a short pencil. The reason for shifting to the star shape probably involved physics. Throwing the weapon with a spin probably puts more power behind it. The spin could potentially balance out the weapon. The all-around edge/points ensures that it will hurt any way the weapon lands. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36916 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 23:55:13
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I will say, though, that I understand that "shuriken" being the term used is kind of jarring. Generic throwing star might serve better.
That I can agree with. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2006 : 03:27:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If they were impractical, I doubt we'd know about them. Useless weapons tend to be forgotten... The fact that we know of them, and that they are so prominent in the Oriental combat lore, speaks well of their usefulness.
The question is: Would we know them if it wasn't for the terrible ninja flicks of the eighties? Under normal circumstances you cannot possibly kill someone with a shuriken, but in those movies it happened all the time; maybe that's why they're so deeply ingrained in our perception of Asian weaponry - they're made out to be real weapons instead of devices to distract or slow down enemies.
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
And while it has nothing to do with the Realms, in the movie Willow in one scene we see a throwing star that lodges in a cart next to Madmartigan's face, and while it is clearly a throwing star, it doesn't have the typical asian design to it (just a plain iron four pointed star for throwing). All of the cultures portrayed in that movie are very western-esque.
I will say, though, that I understand that "shuriken" being the term used is kind of jarring. Generic throwing star might serve better.
That's what Mace suggested. But let's not forget that Willow's art design was a hodgepodge of ideas without any concept backing them up and holding them together. A blackened samurai helmet is still a samurai helmet, a gilded helmet of ancient Greece is still... and so on.
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36916 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2006 : 06:06:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Zorro
A blackened samurai helmet is still a samurai helmet, a gilded helmet of ancient Greece is still... and so on.
Zorro
It isn't a samurai helmet if it wasn't developed for and used by samurai... Again, you're acting as if things developed in the real-world Orient couldn't have been developed elsewhere. We need to stop applying real-world history to the Realms, and simply look at what is logical. |
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Haman
Seeker
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2006 : 07:29:46
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Quote by Wooly:
quote:
We need to stop applying real-world history to the Realms, and simply look at what is logical.
No, we don't.
First off, the practice of applying real-world history was not started by the readers, that came totally from the designers, and it is more obvious than I was ever comfortable with. Dig out your old Maztica accessories (Mayan/Cortez events), Kara-Tur (East Asia)supplements, Mulhorand Pantheon (Ancient Egypt)materials...look at the DIRECT comparisons of say Chessenta and the Ancient Greek city states. Compare Cormyr with pre-Agincourt England, or the strongest example of all, "The Great Glacier" by Rick Swan, which is nearly word for word a thesis on Innuit cultures of the arctic with a few Realms terms thrown in. The practice of using real-world history for Realms Cultures is blatant. This isn't a "Bad Thing", it just is.
Secondly, using Real-World history is THE greatest tool we can use in developing cultures and rationales for what exists (which is why the FR designers did so, is my belief). We don't have spicy "General Tso's Chicken" as a common fare in Berdusk, we have Venison and Mutton stews...why? Because the Western culture of our real-world history is what has been adopted in the Western Heartlands. We don't have democratic parliaments in Chult, we have tribal systems based off of Iron Age Africa. We use real-world history to show each areas progression through the years.
That was my original point with the shurikens. There was a reason they weren't developed in the West...off the top of my head it would be the implementation of various chivalric codes, the advances in body armor, and the impact of mounted warfare (all of which East Asia didn't really follow). Shurikens in the Western Heartlands seem out of place and impractical, and not at all culturally reasoned from what they've designed.
Didn't mean to "jump on ya" Wooly, I've read a lot of your posts and have much respect for you, I just happen to disagree with that one comment, and love to debate. And ZOrro, the Oscar Wilde quote is priceless. |
Some people say we gamers have no lives....I think we have too many. |
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FR Deities and their favored weapons
Topic Locked
