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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36916 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Oct 2006 : 11:17:13
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But the Realms is not the real world. Even though some areas are clearly influenced by the real world, it is not a direct translation.
I do not understand why there is this insistence that since something was developed in the East in the real world, it couldn't possibly have been developed elsewhere in a fantasy world. Especially, as I said earlier, by someone who was motivated to do so. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2006 : 11:51:02
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AD&D and D&D always had a mishmash of weaponry from all eras and areas, do I like that the kukri, an traditional Indian weapon, sees its use in a western-style civilization? No, but that is beside the point. We are dealing with fantasy, sure from the developer's point of view I can understand having all kinds of weapons added just for the variety, but from the pseudo-historical standpoint of the Realms' past it is conceivable to see those weapons.
Not because they were added because of the rules, but because of...well, why not? The cultures are similar to Earth, but they are not the same.
The problem is in the original system, and just happened.
I can see throwing stars for Mystra's clergy...would I call them shurikens? No way in hell! |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Haman
Seeker
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2006 : 12:23:51
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Seeing how the regions of the Realms have been based off of real world history and cultures, then it'd just make sense to respect the "rules" of those cultures progression. Sure, it's a fantasy world, but I think all of us DM's and Players stress to make it a "Fantasy game grounded in Reality", to make it more authentic and believable.
That said, we need to look at our foundations. Let's take Cormyr. I think we can agree that Cormyr is based of of the ideals of chivalric, medieval, western europe, right? So we add in the recognition of Gods and their effects, a dash or two of magic, and a few twists to the country's culture base. All of that may make it a fantasy land now, but it doesn't make crops grow in the ground all by themselves and fly to the peasants table. My point in this, is that all progression in history is based on time and capacity. Civilizations didn't just develop EVERY sort of art/technology/weapons for a reason, they didn't have the time or capacity, they specialized in areas that were the most efficient. Peasants had to see to the land, merchants and craftsmen devoted theirs to what would work best and sell best. Thus you never saw western europeans crafting persian-type rugs or Indian style architecture. They didn't have the time to touch on EVERY avenue of crafting/artistic technology.
For a place like Cormyr, it's a simple one word answer to why they would have no need or desire to craft shuriken-like devices OR even be exposed to them: Crossbows. Notice the lack of Crossbow technolgy in Japan, there is a reason for it (and it'd take me another 12 pages to go through in detail, heh). Needless to say, it's armor. A good crossbow can punch through plate mail (such as Purple Dragon guards wear)....a shuriken can't (well, not really, you know what I mean). Thus crossbows will be emphasised and shuriken like devices ignored completely or not even thought of at all.
Yes, we can dismiss so much of the real world history and say "In my Realms, Waterdeeps sewers are flushed out daily with huge steam engines...", because if we're going to ignore realistic technological advancement, might as well ignore sensible, necessary pauses in development too.
Please don't get me wrong, I will defend a DM/Players right to make of the Realms what they will and change whatever they wish, to my last dying breath. I look at times like this as just an oppurtunity to debate the way I run my Realms and why I think it's best.
Shurikens are an exotic weapon. In the lands that we know most of (Western Heartlands), there is no rational reason they would be forged or used, just as they weren't in the real world we base the Western Heartlands off of.
On a side note: Besides the obvious "It's a weapon mostly shaped like a star", what connection did shurikens even HAVE with Mystra? I still vote for quarterstaff... |
Some people say we gamers have no lives....I think we have too many. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36916 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2006 : 12:31:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Haman
Shurikens are an exotic weapon. In the lands that we know most of (Western Heartlands), there is no rational reason they would be forged or used, just as they weren't in the real world we base the Western Heartlands off of.
On a side note: Besides the obvious "It's a weapon mostly shaped like a star", what connection did shurikens even HAVE with Mystra? I still vote for quarterstaff...
I still fail to understand why you're maintaining that other cultures couldn't come up with similar items. All it takes is for someone to decide to try it...
No rational reason? "Hmm, I'm a cleric of someone whose holy symbol is a bunch of stars. Now, to be inspired by that for a weapon... I'll use this big stick!" How is that rational? If the symbol of your deity is a star or stars, and you want to emulate that, throwing stars are obvious -- regardless of cultural influences. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2006 : 12:38:15
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The first crossbows were developed in China/Asia at a time when the Romans were still busy with conquering Gaul. Also had Henry V. used crossbows instead of longbows at Agincourt the entire battle would have run quite differently.
The crossbow was a compromise, nothing more. It operates like a gun, basically, straight stick with an arrow. The reason why it was developed is simple: training. In every way the longbow was and still is a superior weapon. The reason why it wasn't employed later on was that it took years of training to have a good longbowman, the crossbow did take about as much time as it takes to train an infantry man with a rifle...not very long. It is a simple concept, point the weapon at the target, pull the trigger, reload.
The longbow has more punch, shoots over longer distances, shoots ballistic, and you can fire a whole deal more often than you can with a crossbow.
Also, medieval Europe had only one religion, and many of the developments, social not technological, were because of the way the people viewed the world.
Back to the topic: the throwing star makes sense, it is fast and deadly against unprotected targets (ever thrown a sharp shuriken? those bastards are wicket!). It is basically the physical prepresentation of magic: as long as a target is not protected it dies, quickly.
I have no problem with the weapon in itself, I have a problem with the word "shuriken"...but I repeat myself. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2006 : 13:10:00
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| One more thing to throw in here . . . in the "real world" a lot of similar weapons were developed in various dispartiate regions, but they only "caught on" in the regions that we associate with using the weapon extensively. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2006 : 17:23:05
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| Actually I can't even agree that Cormyr is based on ancient Germany or Britian, since it's not. Ed has said this repeatedly, most places that he created in FR are NOT based on ancient Earth countries. Read his replies about it. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 19 Oct 2006 17:24:40 |
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Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2006 : 23:45:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It isn't a samurai helmet if it wasn't developed for and used by samurai... Again, you're acting as if things developed in the real-world Orient couldn't have been developed elsewhere. We need to stop applying real-world history to the Realms, and simply look at what is logical.
Again? This was my first post in this thread, and I actually agree with Mace, so I wonder how you read into what I wrote that I don't  Besides, I made a remark regarding Willow that its art design wasn't overly original, but copied and pasted. That has little to do with the topic at hand anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No rational reason? "Hmm, I'm a cleric of someone whose holy symbol is a bunch of stars. Now, to be inspired by that for a weapon... I'll use this big stick!" How is that rational? If the symbol of your deity is a star or stars, and you want to emulate that, throwing stars are obvious -- regardless of cultural influences.
Don't apply rationality to this; otherwise you'd have to explain half of the favored weapons  Let folks wield kukri-shaped swords and toss throwing stars around for all I care; just don't call those weapons kukri or shuriken, it kinda breaks the fourth wall.
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
Edited by - Zorro on 19 Oct 2006 23:52:59 |
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Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2006 : 23:49:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Actually I can't even agree that Cormyr is based on ancient Germany or Britian, since it's not. Ed has said this repeatedly, most places that he created in FR are NOT based on ancient Earth countries. Read his replies about it.
So he denies any influence, but that doesn't change the similarities or many people's perception of them (encouraged by the descriptions and artwork in the accessories), and that's what we're talking about, isn't it? To me Cormyr has the hard-to-explain flavor of an idealized, vaguely Arthurian Britain, or France or Germany in the late Middle Ages if you will. If it's actually based on any of those or not and if the similarities are deliberate is secondary. (Naturally, to a certain extent it is based on real-world history, like most countries in most fantasy settings, because you can't deliberately forget your history knowledge, create a fantasy country and completely accidentally come up with something reminiscent of something in the real world. What you know shapes what you create - therefore only a complete idiot can be genuinely original )
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2006 : 23:55:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Zorro
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Actually I can't even agree that Cormyr is based on ancient Germany or Britian, since it's not. Ed has said this repeatedly, most places that he created in FR are NOT based on ancient Earth countries. Read his replies about it.
So he denies any influence, but that doesn't change the similarities or many people's perception of them (encouraged by the descriptions and artwork in the accessories), and that's what we're talking about, isn't it? To me Cormyr has the hard-to-explain flavor of an idealized, vaguely Arthurian Britain, or France or Germany in the late Middle Ages if you will. If it's actually based on any of those or not and if the similarities are deliberate is secondary. (Naturally, to a certain extent it is based on real-world history, like most countries in most fantasy settings, because you can't deliberately forget your history knowledge, create a fantasy country and completely accidentally come up with something reminiscent of something in the real world. What you know shapes what you create - therefore only a complete idiot can be genuinely original )
Zorro
Ed doesn't deny anything since you are putting words into his mouth/typing and as the creator of the setting, I do believe he knows more about the setting and how he created it then you do.
If people PERCEIVE that Cormyr is britain or germany then they don't know much about the setting or how Ed created it. Yes, people CAN make settings that are not based on our history, it's very easy to do so actually, since Ed has done so for 30+ years now. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 20 Oct 2006 00:04:46 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 00:42:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Zorro
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Actually I can't even agree that Cormyr is based on ancient Germany or Britian, since it's not. Ed has said this repeatedly, most places that he created in FR are NOT based on ancient Earth countries. Read his replies about it.
So he denies any influence, but that doesn't change the similarities or many people's perception of them (encouraged by the descriptions and artwork in the accessories), and that's what we're talking about, isn't it? To me Cormyr has the hard-to-explain flavor of an idealized, vaguely Arthurian Britain, or France or Germany in the late Middle Ages if you will. If it's actually based on any of those or not and if the similarities are deliberate is secondary. (Naturally, to a certain extent it is based on real-world history, like most countries in most fantasy settings, because you can't deliberately forget your history knowledge, create a fantasy country and completely accidentally come up with something reminiscent of something in the real world. What you know shapes what you create - therefore only a complete idiot can be genuinely original )
Zorro
Ed doesn't deny anything since you are putting words into his mouth/typing and as the creator of the setting, I do believe he knows more about the setting and how he created it then you do.
If people PERCEIVE that Cormyr is britain or germany then they don't know much about the setting or how Ed created it. Yes, people CAN make settings that are not based on our history, it's very easy to do so actually, since Ed has done so for 30+ years now.
Indeed.
Zorro, I must insist that you, again, look over Ed's comments on this. He's made his views on the creation of the Realms, and the individual inspirations behind parts of his creation, very clear. It's really about our own individual interpretations and views that influence us and tend to make us "perceive" direct commonalities between certain parts of the Realms and Earth, and rather, not any specific intention by Ed to recreate Earth-based cultures in the Realms.
Consider this, from Ed's more recent '06 replies, for example -
"...but it should always be remembered that the Realms is NOT an analogy or copy of Earth; what we may see as medieval in some ways, and Renaissance in others, when looking at Faerûn, is inevitably seeing things from our point of view: the Realms may develop in very different ways than the real world did."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 20 Oct 2006 00:45:46 |
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Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 01:17:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Ed doesn't deny anything since you are putting words into his mouth/typing and as the creator of the setting, I do believe he knows more about the setting and how he created it then you do. (...) Yes, people CAN make settings that are not based on our history, it's very easy to do so actually, since Ed has done so for 30+ years now.
My, aren't we a little touchy when it comes to the FR's creator... Don't fret, it was not my intention to insult Him. By using the word "denying" I wanted to express that "he says Cormyr isn't based on France / Germany / and so on".
With the utmost respect for a great world builder I assume that even he is not immune to outside influences. He is a bookworm if ever there was one, and it would be hard to find something he hasn't read already. Now, if he says, "When I came up with Cormyr, I can claim with absolute certainty that I was neither consciously nor subconsciously influenced by the feeling I get when I read Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur", he might be sure about that. Until his death Tolkien has claimed that his opus magnum was free from any allegories, but after quite a back and forth he admitted that he might have processed some of his own experiences, at least subconsciously. You cannot create without doing that. But what I wanted to drive at is that although Rohan and Gondor are unique creations, they are based on real-world history. Every fictional monarchy is just because the concept has been established an eternity ago. By using this concept you draw on your own knowledge and try to create something new out of something old. You cannot come up with a monarchy, write its whole fictional history and say, "My monarchy is above comparisons with other monarchies that have existed or been created by novelists before, because it's totally different." It might be, but it's still a monarchy, the ruler is still called a king, he still wears a crown and sits on a throne, his heir still inherits the throne upon his death, and so on. That's all I wanted to point out, nothing more. I do hope I have made myself a little clearer.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
If people PERCEIVE that Cormyr is britain or germany then they don't know much about the setting or how Ed created it.
To begin with Ed himself has always advised the Realms fans to make the Realms their own - because of that I feel entitled to the flavor I get from reading the lore (and the flavor I subconsciously inject into it, because by simply absorbing something we change it, that's how the mind works). Secondly, we're talking about what's been published, right? You know that everytime someone asks for real-world similarities on the Boards of Evil - those threads seem to pop up once half a year -, someone else equates Cormyr with medieval France etc, and if anybody disagrees with that equation at all, then only to point out it's much more like medieval Britain or whatever medieval country comes to mind first. Well, where does this perception come from? We're all aware that the Realms have been significantly tinkered with and changed by TSR, that much was added and that original parts of them bear only a superficial resemblance to what Ed originally created. But John Q. Public cannot be expected to contact Ed or browse the web in search of snippets of his comments just to find out what Ed had originally envisioned and how the Realms in their published form differ from that vision. Unfortunately your compilation of his replies is neither official nor easily obtained if one doesn't know where to look. (In fact it would be great if he'd been given back complete creative control and the whole body of work would be republished, but that won't happen, so we have to work with what we've got.)
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 01:26:02
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Actually my complilation of his replies is official since his contract states that his replies are official canon unless tsr/wotc changes his lore with in game lore/explaination.
So, since he posted his official canon replies on this board, then his posts are official canon.
And please, don't give me that, "Ed has said to change the setting to suit your needs." If we were talking about your homebrew version, that would be a whole different discussion but we are not discussing your homebrew version, now are we. However, since you said it yourself, we are talking about official published FR and Ed's version there of, when it hasn't been changed. And most of his Faerun material hasn't been changed that much from the original.
Yes, I, again, take the words of the setting creator over anything that you might claim since as I said, he knows how he created the setting even though you might claim something to the contrary and your words are obviously misplaced or wrong since you are not him and you don't have his words or his thoughts to back up what you claim.
If someone keeps equating Cormyr with Britain or Germany then they, as I said, obviously don't know much about the setting and how it was created. Furthermore, you don't even need Ed's comments to realize this, if people read the sourcebooks and understand what they are reading.
So, people can make a setting that is not based on Earth. Ed does it all the time, I do it all the time for my writings, and many other authors do it. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 20 Oct 2006 01:38:51 |
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Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 01:39:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Actually my complilation of his replies is official since his contract states that his replies are official canon unless tsr/wotc changes his lore with in game lore/explaination.
You cannot buy it at Barnes & Noble, cannot order it via Amazon, don't find a pointer to it in the FRCS or on WotC's website. Official or not, canon or not, it is just not very well-known and easily obtainable.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Yes, I again, take the words of the setting creators over anything that you might claim since as I said, he knows how he created the setting even though you might claim something to the contrary and your words are obviously misplaced or wrong since you are not him and you don't have his words to back up what you claim.
Why are you so dogged about this? If we assume that Ed is above other human beings in that he's not subject to his subconscious, education and experiences and is always telling the objective truth, naturally that makes me automatically wrong, all right, all right. I'm just saying... *shrugs*
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
If someone keeps equating Cormyr with Britain or Germany then they, as I said, obviously don't know much about the setting and how it was created.
Whereupon I have to repeat that most go by what they read in the FRCS and the occasional 2E accessory. Personally I think you don't have to have a doctorate in Realmsology to be allowed an opinion about the setting as published.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
So, people can make a setting that is not based on Earth. Ed does it all the time, I do it all the time for my writings, and many other authors do it.
Did you read my last post?
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
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Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 01:45:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
And please, don't give me that, "Ed has said to change the setting to suit your needs." If we were talking about your homebrew version, that would be a whole different discussion but we are not discussing your homebrew version, now are we.
Whoa, this is really bothering you, isn't it? Goodness, calm down. No, we're not talking about some homebrew setting. But for curiosity's sake: Since Ed encourages gamers to change what they don't like, and they act on it and change something, would you say they were doing it wrong or that a single deviation makes their game not FR anymore? No hidden insults, I'm just curious.
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 01:49:12
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Maybe because, for the third time, you are putting words to the settings creator when he has firmly stated, more then once, that he knows how he created the world ever since he was a young kid and for the last 30+ years. If you want to debate this with him, or those of us who understand what he says and how he created the world, then you are not going to be the one that is in the right.
So, you claim he is influenced by what he's read, etc. He says he isn't and he knows how he created the setting.
Let's see. Who am I and most people going to believe? That's right, the settings creator. Especially since you don't NEED Ed's words to realize that most of Faerun is not based on RL.
Ah, so then you are discussing your homebrew version then because as soon as you add or change anything, we are then no longer discussing the official FR or the official FR that comes through Ed's replies.
And I am calm, but I don't like people putting words into Ed's mouth, when he's clearly stated that he didn't create the setting to be based on RL.
You know, you could prove us wrong by going to ask Ed but I'm wondering why you choose not to? Maybe because you just like to stir up this arguement and not be proven wrong? HMMM? |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 20 Oct 2006 01:53:55 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 01:57:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Zorro
You know that everytime someone asks for real-world similarities on the Boards of Evil - those threads seem to pop up once half a year -, someone else equates Cormyr with medieval France etc, and if anybody disagrees with that equation at all, then only to point out it's much more like medieval Britain or whatever medieval country comes to mind first. Well, where does this perception come from?
That's not Ed's intention though. As I quoted from Ed above...
"...what we may see as medieval in some ways, and Renaissance in others, when looking at Faerûn, is inevitably seeing things from our point of view."
It's not something Ed has intentionally done to make the Realms Earth-like. The Realms has nearly forty years of both unpublished and publised history which allows it, again as Ed said, "develop in very different ways than the real world did", thus divorcing itself from any real and true connection with real-world influences.
quote:
But John Q. Public cannot be expected to contact Ed or browse the web in search of snippets of his comments just to find out what Ed had originally envisioned and how the Realms in their published form differ from that vision.
And they're not expected to.
However, you cannot alo claim that the Realms is influenced by this real-world country or that real-world culture and suggest that you are correct. You are free to follow your own interpretations, of course. And you are free to perceive the individual aspects of the Realms however you see fit. It is, afterall, your own influence and POV which determines your perceptions when looking at the Realms, as Ed said above.
Though, when you come to a public forum where the creator just happens to share his thoughts, thus having access to the words of the setting's creator, and he's allowing you to know his in-depth processes that clearly state both how and why he followed the path of creation for his Realms, then you have the evidence and support you need to claim that anyone who says otherwise, is actally incorrect.
quote:
Unfortunately your compilation of his replies is neither official nor easily obtained if one doesn't know where to look. (In fact it would be great if he'd been given back complete creative control and the whole body of work would be republished, but that won't happen, so we have to work with what we've got.)
Actually, his words here are considered official, unless WotC directly overwrite them in any future FR product, which is the same for any official and pre-existing Realms material.
And some of his replies have actually been published in official FR products... again adding to their status as canon. One of the more recent tomes by Ed, Power of Faerun contained sections and tidbits of replies he's made here at Candlekeep.
As for Ed's replies being "easily obtained"... they're stored here at Candlekeep, the Library of FR lore, and are available to any scribes or non-registered visitors. They're stored in PDF, HTML and .doc formats, with available search functions and detailed TOCs. How much easier to obtain do the reply files have to be?
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 02:04:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Zorro
You cannot buy it at Barnes & Noble, cannot order it via Amazon, don't find a pointer to it in the FRCS or on WotC's website.
As I said, parts of his replies have actually been published in 3e FR products.
quote:
Official or not, canon or not, it is just not very well-known and easily obtainable.
Not well-known? Thanks to Kuje, myself and a few others at the official FR WotC message boards, nearly every poster there is at least aware that Ed, through THO, sends replies to questions asked by scribes at Candlekeep. And we are talking about the official FR boards, with one of the largest FR community bases on the web. I've also seen and mentioned Ed's replies on several other FR and non-specific FR forums I also visit. Word has passed in the last three years about what Ed does here, it's rather well-known by now.
And I've already covered the "easily obtainable" bit. You can also access them at Kuje's website (in his sig). And since he's a regular here, like many scribes, you can be certain that most scribes have at least seen the URL in his sig here and there.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 02:07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And some of his replies have actually been published in official FR products... again adding to their status as canon. One of the more recent tomes by Ed, Power of Faerun contained sections and tidbits of replies he's made here at Candlekeep.
Don't forget the dedication to Candlekeep in Elaine's and his Waterdeep novel.
And just last night I was lurking on ENworld and someone said, "Go ask one of the Candlekeep posters. Ed has probably answered them about this." Sure enough, I delurked and said, he did and here is his answer. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 20 Oct 2006 02:10:04 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 02:11:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And some of his replies have actually been published in official FR products... again adding to their status as canon. One of the more recent tomes by Ed, Power of Faerun contained sections and tidbits of replies he's made here at Candlekeep.
Don't forget the dedication to Candlekeep in Elaine's and his Waterdeep novel.
And just last night I was lurking on ENworld and someone said, "Go as Candlekeep posters. Ed has probably answered them about this." Sure enough, I delurked and said, he did and here is his answer.
Which, again, only adds to the "well-known" part of my discussion above. If you've read Ed's and Elaine's CoS novel, then you at least know Candlekeep, as a website, exists... and the potential for more lore is an actual reality.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 02:26:56
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It's not something Ed has intentionally done to make the Realms Earth-like.
Please don't get me wrong, I know he attaches great importance to that. I'm just saying that the groundwork of many parts of the Realms is something we can relate to, something inspired by history in general. I'm not saying Cormyr was explicitly meant to be like this or that medieval realm (I pointed out that others seem to think it is), I'm saying Cormyr is the fantasy equivalent of an idealized monarchy that's never existed in the real world. But it cannot be disputed that it is inspired by history because Ed didn't invent kings wearing crowns and sitting on thrones, princesses, knights in shining armor, nobles sitting in their castles and plotting against each other. That is all I'm saying, nothing more.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
It is, afterall, your own influence and POV which determines your perceptions when looking at the Realms, as Ed said above.
Which we are all subject to as I have pointed out, no disagreement here.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Actually, his words here are considered official, unless WotC directly overwrite them in any future FR product, which is the same for any official and pre-existing Realms material.
I know, but not everybody has access to previously unpublished lore by Ed. Initially I was asking: Can someone who reads the Cormyr write-up in the FRCS and / or the 2E Cormyr sourcebook get the impression that part of the inspiration for the Forest Kingdom might have been [insert anything that comes to mind as long as it's reasonable]? And I think someone can. That has nothing to do with the question whether Ed had originally had that in mind or if he likes this impression at all.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
As for Ed's replies being "easily obtained"... they're stored here at Candlekeep, the Library of FR lore, and are available to any scribes or non-registered visitors. They're stored in PDF, HTML and .doc formats, with available search functions and detailed TOCs. How much easier to obtain do the reply files have to be?
So you're saying someone who leafs through the FRCS at the game store, likes it and takes it home can be expected to know that he can find Ed's replies here at Candlekeep? Please remember, I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about the average gamer, one who doesn't necessarily have to visit WotC's boards, at least not to the extent that the existence of Ed's replies here at Candlekeep can be expected to be common knowledge for him. But I admit, unlike you I don't know how much traffic Candlekeep gets. If it is so well-known, I stand corrected 
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
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Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 02:35:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Ah, so then you are discussing your homebrew version then because as soon as you add or change anything, we are then no longer discussing the official FR or the official FR that comes through Ed's replies.
As I have said before, no, we're not discussing any homebrew version. But pointing it out a third time won't make you acknowledge that, so let that rest.
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
You know, you could prove us wrong by going to ask Ed but I'm wondering why you choose not to? Maybe because you just like to stir up this arguement and not be proven wrong? HMMM?
Could you be more childish? I didn't mean to attack your hero, Kuje, seriously. I just choose to not believe something he said. If that makes me an evil, evil person, so be it. Now you want me to bother him about this banality? Let me see how that would turn out:
Zorro: Dear Mr Greenwood, though I've been a fan of yours for almost twenty years, I can't help but think that you have been influenced by your wide reading and historical, cultural, sociological etc. knowledge, because as far as I know, no one can't be.
Ed: Sorry, Zorro, you're wrong, I haven't been influenced by anything.
Everyone [pointing at Zorro]: Boooo!
Happy now? Look, I officially give up. You know, you don't have to defend him since I haven't attacked him. This is not a clash of arms, just an exchange of opinions - at least that's what I thought -, and since you obviously need to be right about this, be my guest: I've never been more wrong in my life. I hope that will make you sleep better; otherwise I'd be worried you could develop a heart condition over this, because you don't seem calm at all
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
Edited by - Zorro on 20 Oct 2006 02:36:00 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 02:51:06
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If it was so banal, as you claim, then why did you first reply to my post by saying that Ed was wrong and he doesn't know what he's talking about? HMMM?
And yet, you kept the arguement going after we've shown you more then once that what you first infered about my post and my later posts is not correct. And you did attack him by infering that he doesn't know how he thinks and that only you know how he thinks and how he created the material that he created.
So, instead of arguing about it, while don't you go ask him? |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 20 Oct 2006 02:57:47 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 02:56:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Zorro
Please don't get me wrong, I know he attaches great importance to that. I'm just saying that the groundwork of many parts of the Realms is something we can relate to, something inspired by history in general. I'm not saying Cormyr was explicitly meant to be like this or that medieval realm (I pointed out that others seem to think it is), I'm saying Cormyr is the fantasy equivalent of an idealized monarchy that's never existed in the real world. But it cannot be disputed that it is inspired by history because Ed didn't invent kings wearing crowns and sitting on thrones, princesses, knights in shining armor, nobles sitting in their castles and plotting against each other. That is all I'm saying, nothing more.
The issue of Ed creating a monarchy, a king or a queen isn't really what is in dispute here.
What should be noted is that while Ed is using specific Earth-concepts, like any writer, the ways in which these Earth-concepts are used and built up within the Realms has very little to do with Earth-equivalents. A monarchy in the Realms is a representation of the history inside the setting, a reflection of the 20 or so years of published (and maybe even the additional 20 years of unpublished) Realmslore that exists to support that monarchy.
The Realms is being built upon its own internal and dynamic history, not that of Earth's.
quote:
I know, but not everybody has access to previously unpublished lore by Ed. Initially I was asking: Can someone who reads the Cormyr write-up in the FRCS and / or the 2E Cormyr sourcebook get the impression that part of the inspiration for the Forest Kingdom might have been [insert anything that comes to mind as long as it's reasonable]? And I think someone can.
As I said, you are free to interprete the individual parts of the Realms however you see fit. As a shared-gaming world with 20 years of published history, alternate interpretations between game designers, and fans of the shared-world, are always going to be apparent.
However, your own interpretation stops, largely, when you also know of, and consider, the words of the setting's creator. Once that happens, you are better able to formulate your own views on pre-existing Realms material and determine your POV anew if you so wish.
quote:
So you're saying someone who leafs through the FRCS at the game store, likes it and takes it home can be expected to know that he can find Ed's replies here at Candlekeep? Please remember, I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about the average gamer, one who doesn't necessarily have to visit WotC's boards, at least not to the extent that the existence of Ed's replies here at Candlekeep can be expected to be common knowledge for him.
Well, Ed wasn't making replies here at Candlekeep in 2000/2001.
Though, if said gamer has purchased any FR product, even the FRCS which Ed was also responsible for as part of a team, regardless of the edition, he can generally assume that what he's reading has been influenced by Ed's original Realms work in someway.
We know the replies Ed provides here can sometimes be months, or even years old... material his written previously that he's never had a chance to properly published in an FR product. But he has, when he can, manage to provide the odd reference or tidbit in subsequent FR products. The fact is, we don't know how much of Ed's extensive unpublished Realmslore has filtered down through FR products over the years. Other writers and game designers have told us they often seek Ed's original view on an aspect of the Realms before using it to expand and explore new paths.
So yes, what you're reading in ANY FR product may have, and likely has, included lore from Ed's extensive stockpile of previously unpublished material -- when he's been able to drop it in.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 20 Oct 2006 02:57:45 |
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Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 02:56:53
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Judging from your Kuje31 nick over at WotC's boards, I'd assume we're both too old for "arguments" like "Why didn't you shut up instead of replying?" or "You think he only thinks he's never been influenced by anything, so you attacked him!" Have a nice cup of coffee.
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36916 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 03:34:09
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Additionally, before sealing this scroll completely...
I just want to apologise to any scribe who may have taken offense at some of the comments I've expressed here. That was not my intent. I don't usually get so carried away with these types of discussions, publically, and I should've handled this better.
While I agree with my own views here, obviously, I can accept that other scribes can and will continue choosing to view these types of issues in their own way. This type of "forceful" posting was extremely out-of-character for me... and thus, I thought it would be appropriate for me to clear any misconceptions that may exist regarding the opinions I expressed in this scroll.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 20 Oct 2006 03:36:59 |
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FR Deities and their favored weapons
Topic Locked
