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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 20:33:53
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Just a quick one. A question regarding the formation of the dwarven race?
I know that dwarves from a theological point of view are formed from the Hammer Blows of Moradin etc............. But in several books, Namley The Races of Faerun, Dwarves are outsiders who came from somewhere else not native to Abeir-Toril.
My question is this, Where did they stem from? Is there any canon regarding this? and where can I find it?
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 20:39:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Delzounblood
Just a quick one. A question regarding the formation of the dwarven race?
I know that dwarves from a theological point of view are formed from the Hammer Blows of Moradin etc............. But in several books, Namley The Races of Faerun, Dwarves are outsiders who came from somewhere else not native to Abeir-Toril.
My question is this, Where did they stem from? Is there any canon regarding this? and where can I find it?
quote:
Originally posted by Delzounblood
Just a quick one. A question regarding the formation of the dwarven race?
I know that dwarves from a theological point of view are formed from the Hammer Blows of Moradin etc............. But in several books, Namley The Races of Faerun, Dwarves are outsiders who came from somewhere else not native to Abeir-Toril.
My question is this, Where did they stem from? Is there any canon regarding this? and where can I find it?
the only canon I know of is that the Dwarves entered the Realms in the Yhemal (sp?) Mountains...which is the greatest known mountain range in Aber-Toril (unless there is a greater one in one of those "unknown land" continents) that practically divides Faerun, Kara-Tur and Zakhara...
they then migrated out of the Yehmals, the ones going west becomeing the dwarves you know of...and it can eb argued others migrated sout to become the dwarves in Zakhara and east to become the kobrozuru ( sp?), the oriental dwarves...
a few dwarf mythologies can come from the 2E Book of Dwarves and the 3E Races of Stone |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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w2b
Acolyte
Italy
30 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2006 : 20:20:30
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kalin agrivar is right afaik, but i'd like to contribute a bit if i manage to... let's see...
-in races of faerun it says most non-dwarven scholars think dwarves came from somewhere else (not abeir-toril), but such a long time ago that they became one with faerun's earth and stone.
--dwarven collective racial memory claims moradin crafted them with his hammer from iron and mithral in the soulforge, then breathed life into them, and they sprung forth completely formed from the heart of the world.
--the most ancient myths say it was the -core- of the world, and they fought their way up to the surface mountains.
in all cases, races of faerun agrees with agrivar: the first dwarven settlements appeared in the yehimal mountains, where faerun, kara-tur and zakhara meet, and the stout people travelled to all three continents from there.
-in the frcs it is said the creator races began to experiment with the first forms of interplanar travel and created a sort of prototypes for faerun's modern portals. from these portals came: 1. dwarves, 2. treants, 3. elves, 4. illithid, first to last. this of course clashes with dwarven mythology according to races of faerun.
-faiths & pantheons says dwarves believe moradin forged the bodies of the first dwarves with metal and gems and gave them a soul when he cooled them with his breath. more or less as in races of faerun.
alas, this is all i have about dwarves... at the moment. |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2006 : 11:16:20
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quote:
Originally posted by w2b
kalin agrivar is right afaik, but i'd like to contribute a bit if i manage to... let's see...
-in races of faerun it says most non-dwarven scholars think dwarves came from somewhere else (not abeir-toril), but such a long time ago that they became one with faerun's earth and stone.
--dwarven collective racial memory claims moradin crafted them with his hammer from iron and mithral in the soulforge, then breathed life into them, and they sprung forth completely formed from the heart of the world.
--the most ancient myths say it was the -core- of the world, and they fought their way up to the surface mountains.
in all cases, races of faerun agrees with agrivar: the first dwarven settlements appeared in the yehimal mountains, where faerun, kara-tur and zakhara meet, and the stout people travelled to all three continents from there.
-in the frcs it is said the creator races began to experiment with the first forms of interplanar travel and created a sort of prototypes for faerun's modern portals. from these portals came: 1. dwarves, 2. treants, 3. elves, 4. illithid, first to last. this of course clashes with dwarven mythology according to races of faerun.
-faiths & pantheons says dwarves believe moradin forged the bodies of the first dwarves with metal and gems and gave them a soul when he cooled them with his breath. more or less as in races of faerun.
alas, this is all i have about dwarves... at the moment.
Yeah thanks, I have all the info you have both mentioned. But I was looking for any written lore regarding where the Dwarves came from originally ie: Where the other end of these gates are, I wanted to explore this avenue as well as the theological version of events!
Also it is mentioned that ORCS are not a native of fearun either ( I think it's in FRCS ) and they came through gates aswell, I was wondering if the Dwarves and Orcs came from the same plane thus being bitter rivals from their creation together? on both the original and current planes?
I want to get as much info as possible so that my book will be complete! I need to gather as much realms lore / canon on this so I don't have to make up too much! This I see as a possible problem with other players views. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2006 : 14:06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Delzounblood
Also it is mentioned that ORCS are not a native of fearun either ( I think it's in FRCS ) and they came through gates aswell, I was wondering if the Dwarves and Orcs came from the same plane thus being bitter rivals from their creation together? on both the original and current planes?
I imagine any non-fey race that is not a Creator Race or affiliated with the Creator Races came from another material or outer/inner plane (the fey, IMO, seem to just appear in any world that supports life)
Do you have the Races of Faerun? the eastern/gray orcs are definately regent interlopers/immigrants...but I don't know when the northern/mountain orcs arrived, the Evermeet novel implies that orcs were in the Realms before the Flowering (when the moon/sun elves arrived) which is well before the arrival of the dwarves...
and the orogs (in 3E Realms) are just superior mountain orcs adapted to the Underdark |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2006 : 14:18:26
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I have Races of Faerun on order, It has yet to arrive!
I would love to get any info on these other material planes if thats where they came from. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2006 : 14:35:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Delzounblood
I have Races of Faerun on order, It has yet to arrive!
I would love to get any info on these other material planes if thats where they came from.
as I'm still trying to grasp the new Forgotten Realms 3E planar mechanics and they say that the Spelljammer is still in 3E I'm not exactly sure how to answer that
in 2E there was only one material plane (the Prime) and it was filled with an infinite amount of crystal spheres, each which held a solar system of a multiple amount of planets, stars, etc. There was also talk of "Alternate Material Planes", like the Far Realm, with alien laws of reality.
thus the elves or dwarves would have come from the same plane (the Prime) but different sphere. The Grayhawk world, the Forgotten Realms world, the Dragonlance world, all were on a different planet in a different sphere. And the spelljammer campaign described dozens of other worlds and crystal spheres (but never the "home planet of the dwarves, elves, etc.)
in 3E each campaign world is in it's own Prime Plane, and there is an infinite amount of Primes now...and for the moment we know really only three Prime Planes..Grayhawk (the "core" campaign), the Realms and Eberron...I can assume there is a Dragonlance Plane, Dark Sun plane, Birthright Plane, etc. (I still havn't heard anyone yet describe how spelljamming works through all the prime planes)
so your answer is there never really any canon of the origin planet or plane of the dwarves...
my best guess (and favourite theory) is that the dwarves (and elves, orcs, giants, dragons, etc.) were created by their gods and then "seeded" throughout the Prime(s) to worship their creators (thus feeding/supporting the powers) |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2006 : 14:43:43
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I much prefer the theological view myself, but as this is for my book and both the planes and the gods versions are already canon though mostly as myth due to lack of source I wanted to show an equal voicing of the two versions with a bit more detail, Alas tis not so, unless I take the plunge myself which I prefer not todo just yet! I shall wait and search some more, maybe I'll ask Ed and THO on the questions board aswell as other designers / writers.
If anyone else reading this has a view or unknown canon plz post. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2006 : 14:47:11
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Kalin, Delzounblood...
Take a look at Section D - 1 in the Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct for a brief rundown of the planar changes between 2e and 3e and the state of the FR cosmology now.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 04 Oct 2006 14:48:33 |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2006 : 14:52:46
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| Thanks sage |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2006 : 14:57:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Kalin, Delzounblood...
Take a look at Section D - 1 in the Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct for a brief rundown of the planar changes between 2e and 3e and the state of the FR cosmology now.
Thank you Sage, I'v read through it a few times..it is a great help 
I'v read that the designers/writers say there is Spelljamming in the Realsm still...has anyone ever discussed how spelljamming works with the separate planar cosmology of the campaign worlds today? |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2006 : 15:18:52
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I'v read that the designers/writers say there is Spelljamming in the Realsm still...
Spelljammers still exist in FR.
Both the FRCS and Rich Baker confirm that spelljamming still exists in the 3e FR cosmology. These are the earliest indications, with several more that followed in successive 3e FR sourcebooks. The Blackstaff novel also, which according to Steven, has a helm that is said to be a spelljamming helm.
quote:
...has anyone ever discussed how spelljamming works with the separate planar cosmology of the campaign worlds today?
Not specifically. We still have no definitive lore on the proper state of spelljamming in 3e as yet.
I also suggest you see Ed's '05 replies for his take on the state of spelljamming and crystal spheres in FR.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2089 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2006 : 17:25:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I'v read that the designers/writers say there is Spelljamming in the Realsm still...
Spelljammers still exist in FR.
Both the FRCS and Rich Baker confirm that spelljamming still exists in the 3e FR cosmology. These are the earliest indications, with several more that followed in successive 3e FR sourcebooks.
In particular, you'll note how we try to dance around the subject in books like Serpent Kingdoms in the write-up of the Rethid Swamp (east of Halruaa). If you like SJ, we did not invalidate a previous reference (found in Gold & Glory). If you have no idea what SJ is, you can still use the Realmslore there.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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shandiris
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2006 : 08:30:24
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Spelljammers still exist in FR. Wizards including to what sage said, have also written an adventure where a spelljamming helm is used.
I can't remember what its name was. But it was a free scenario or excerpt somwhere on the wizards site. |
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By the Hammer of Moradin.............
