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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 01:45:10
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I was thinking of the characters in Forgotten Realms that have a "legendary" quality to them. The answers that come up to me are the following...
Alias
Elminster
Drizzt
The Seven Sisters
Arilyn
Khelban *lowers hat for*
Shandril
Allusair and Azoun
Cyric/Kelemvor/Midnight
It occurs to me that all of these people have very distinct and bizarre origins plus adventures that shake the setting. This is versus all the heroes whom are much more "part of the setting."
Which do you prefer? Not necessarily which is better.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 01:47:05
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| Faraer has said this before, and I agree with him: the status of "iconic" has much more to do with marketing than a character's true place in the setting. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 01:51:38
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One certain way of looking at it and a perfectly valid one.
The argument the only reason that the Forgotten Realms comic crew isn't more iconic is that they aren't releasing that comic anymore
(they need to release that in trades darnit)
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 01:57:20
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| Charles, please don't turn this into another of the "big guys vs. little guys" discussions. We've had enough of those. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 01:58:58
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| Also, I just remembered that Drizzt's adventures aren't all that "setting-shaking". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 01:59:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
One certain way of looking at it and a perfectly valid one.
The argument the only reason that the Forgotten Realms comic crew isn't more iconic is that they aren't releasing that comic anymore
(they need to release that in trades darnit)
I'd those trades. 
They may not be doing the comic anymore, but the characters from the comics certainly have their place in the Realms. All of them were mentioned in various 2E sources, and just about all of them have been mentioned, either directly or indirectly, in 3E material. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 02:00:19
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| Also, I just remembered that Drizzt's adventures aren't all that "setting-shaking". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 02:03:06
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| Less novel-exposed characters like Mintiper Moonsilver, Sharanralee Crownstar, and the Knights of Myth Drannor are more legendary than Alias or Drizzt (who have the strangest origins) or Arilyn. Rulers and gods are bound to be involved in more RS Es, and thus more famous or infamous for it. Then, most of the stories folk of Faerűn know -- as stories -- haven't been published. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 02:05:46
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| I've always wanted to hear more about the Company of Crazed Venturers myself. There are tons of characters that have either local or Faerun wide notoriety that we haven't heard much about in published Realmslore. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 02:24:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Faraer has said this before, and I agree with him: the status of "iconic" has much more to do with marketing than a character's true place in the setting.
I'll note further that Ed has also discussed this several times, in particular, regarding both Elminster and the Seven Sisters.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 04:46:17
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Don't worry, it's not "Big Guy vs. Little Guy"
More What makes a big character I guess and what's so intrisnic about X character vs. Y.
I've had enough of comparing threads.
What are THE Realms characters and why. Elminster is because he's tied to the setting AND Iconic. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 23 Aug 2006 04:47:24 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 05:04:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
What are THE Realms characters and why. Elminster is because he's tied to the setting AND Iconic.
All of them are and why? Because all of them have a part to play. There are no "iconic" characters in FR, except for what TSR/WOTC had continueously written about. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 05:18:58
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| Especially considering the vast majority of people I know never even have these 'iconic' characters encountered in their games, or if they do, they're only brief cameos or references. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 05:57:46
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Especially considering the vast majority of people I know never even have these 'iconic' characters encountered in their games, or if they do, they're only brief cameos or references. :)
Funny, my players practically demand I use them.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 06:55:41
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quote:
Funny, my players practically demand I use them.
I would drop out of that group quickly. ;) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 07:48:01
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quote:
Originally Posted KnightErrantJR
I've always wanted to hear more about the Company of Crazed Venturers myself. There are tons of characters that have either local or Faerun wide notoriety that we haven't heard much about in published Realmslore.
The Company are at the top of my list, together with Manes band, when it comes to persons/groups I am curious about and whom I would love to see a trilogy on. Together with all the npc's from the first two campaign settings I should say. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 07:48:32
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
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Funny, my players practically demand I use them.
I would drop out of that group quickly. ;)
Why? The biggest fun out of the realms for me is the wide and varied NPCs. I don't play for Cormyr but to interact with the big dogs like Azoun and Elminster (whose fun to RPG).
I'm happy to DM for them.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 08:07:22
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quote:
Why? The biggest fun out of the realms for me is the wide and varied NPCs. I don't play for Cormyr but to interact with the big dogs like Azoun and Elminster (whose fun to RPG).
I'm happy to DM for them.
To me, that would kind of be like living your life only to meet celebrities... A bit too shallow for me. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 08:13:33
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| Well many people enjoy meeting the known npc's when gaming; I see nothing wrong with that as long as it is well handled and every one is having fun. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 08:23:20
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It's a matter of having "circles" in gaming. The players don't really like 'normal' adventurers but love RPGing. Given plenty of NPCs are royalty of various makes and stripes or godlike wizards, they tend to think that meeting with them is like travelling in the big leagues.
Plus, honestly I'll admit my failings as a DM, only novel characters are detailed enough to get REALLY DEEP roleplaying from. It's minimal work on my part and I benefit from it tremendously. Elaine Cunningham I owe many thanks for all the fun elf adventures.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 08:39:29
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Heh. I'm weird. I like roleplaying all the time, regardless of which NPC I'm roleplaying with. The Sun Elf I'm playing in a PBEM now would probably find it more interesting to talk to a common farmer than a human king, just for the difference.
The closest thing I've come to having a PC meet a "really big important NPC" was when my Faerie Elf in Greyhawk traveled to meet the Queen of the Elves in their little demiplane. And this was more because, well, he was an elf, and he had been banished with his mind wiped, so it was a racial and background thing. It wasn't because she was big and important, per se. And she's nowhere near an 'iconic' Greyhawk NPC. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 23 Aug 2006 08:40:45 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 09:13:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Khelban *lowers hat for*
'tis still Khelben, dude.
Otherwise it sounds way too much like Dr. Alban...
Also...this, again, sounds too much like "Heroes in fantasy" or whathave you... nuff said |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2006 : 09:28:51
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Arilyn hasn't exactly shaken the Realms, either, and I'm not sure how legendary she is.
Oh, and I echo Mace: this sounds like a rehash of all those topics you made before, Charles. |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2006 : 03:45:42
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I guess I can see the difference....and then I can't.
Both types of NPCs are ‘part of the setting’ in my eyes. This matters more to me than what their ‘legendary’ status is.
Of more import than this is my personal level of familiarity with the ‘iconic’ NPCs. The ones I’m more familiar with matter to me more, regardless of who they are.
I’ve learned to extend this to my job as a DM. Thus I try to get a feel for what my players think/know about certain NPCs, so I can use the ones they know best to help entertain them in play.
I’ve found the bigger the NPC the more fun I have, especially when I can portray them as less all-powerful/perfect and more fallible and human (like describing a haggard looking and fidgeting Elminster inside Blackstaff Tower to my players and having Laeral say to them in-game that he’s recovering from a horrid experience in the outer planes).
Players remember stuff like that.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 00:35:28
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With all due respect Mace and Winter, this topic has nothing to do with Heroes of Fantasy. Heroes of Fantasy was about what type of heroes are best for the setting. This is a topic of what makes certain Realms heroes stand out or not. I see them as utterly unrelated.
Please contribute something useful to the thread if you're going to post. I know you're both capable of it.
So far, our only answer is 1. Marketing.
And frankly, I don't believe marketing is enough to set it aside. Honestly, I believe there's stronger and more mythic connotations at work here. Arilyn's story is a grand and sweeping epic with a discovered magic sword, a lost princess connection, and a revenge tale. It's very classical work.
And she's iconic I think (at least amongst realms fans) in the fact she's cranked out nearly as many books as Drizzt and more than any other character I note. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 25 Aug 2006 00:37:21 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 00:48:09
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| Charles, you mention '"legendary" quality', 'iconic', 'big character', 'THE Realms characters', 'stand out'. I think you need to narrow down what you mean and why it matters to you. Are we talking about characters' fame in the Realms, their popularity among readers, their inherent literary qualities, their standing in the Realms as a commercial property? Those are all distinct, though linked, considerations. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 01:09:53
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Touche.
I think to narrow it down, I suppose it's the quality of what makes Realms characters stand on thei own as popular for readers. The inherent literary qualities of characters is a far too debatable subject and their fame in the realms is something that is a bit ambigious. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 01:14:30
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| I think that Manshoon is iconic. I still haven't picked up "Cloak and Dagger", so I don't know a lot about the clone thing, but he is a malevolent, powerful mage who had to go from being #1 to #2. His story just sounds interesting, even though I only know fragments... maybe that's why I'm so interested??? |
My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 15:47:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Less novel-exposed characters like Mintiper Moonsilver, Sharanralee Crownstar, and the Knights of Myth Drannor are more legendary than Alias or Drizzt (who have the strangest origins) or Arilyn. Rulers and gods are bound to be involved in more RS Es, and thus more famous or infamous for it. Then, most of the stories folk of Faerűn know -- as stories -- haven't been published.
May I know who is Sharanralee Crownstar? I can't recall ever reading about her before (which, in a way, goes to show that she's indeed under-exposed). |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 15:55:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
One certain way of looking at it and a perfectly valid one.
The argument the only reason that the Forgotten Realms comic crew isn't more iconic is that they aren't releasing that comic anymore
(they need to release that in trades darnit)
I'd those trades.
They may not be doing the comic anymore, but the characters from the comics certainly have their place in the Realms. All of them were mentioned in various 2E sources, and just about all of them have been mentioned, either directly or indirectly, in 3E material.
Alas, folks, we're unlikely to ever see those in trade paperback format, despite the fact that all the storylines would perfectly break into 4-issue collections.
TSR owns the rights to the characters and concepts of the FR comics.
DC Comics owns the rights to the art and pages as published. Since the demise of the comic license in 1992, there's no legal way DC could publish those without setting up a new license with Hasbro. And that's more money than they'd likely recoup in publishing.
Steven
who has a 2nd full set of issues he means to bind into books eventually to gift back to Jeff Grubb...one of these years after he learns bookbinding as a hobby.... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Iconic characters vs. Average Joes
