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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 08:44:36
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| Elric was statted out as CE. I just really can't see it, looking at the books. But, even if he is, that makes my argument for "CN does not automatically mean homicidal or uncaring" stronger - considering Elric very much had a moral code (albeit it a REALLY twisted one) and compassion for those he loved. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 09 Aug 2006 08:44:58 |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 08:51:39
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| Elric, as in Elric from the Michael Moorcock series right? If so then CE would be a pretty bad goofup by the authors and publishers of deities & demigods. His sword, Stormbringer i think, was definately CE but Elric IMHO isn't. Elric is a more trying-to-find-his-way character, and much of his angst came from being manipulated to becoming a champion of good for destiny, ack i forgot the exact term for it. He's really a tragic hero in all senses of the word |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 09:09:14
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Yeah, but anyway, let's not get too OT again. :)
Point is - Zaknafein isn't "good" really by D&D's standards, and doesn't have to be to express genuine affection. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 09:18:26
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| Thats true and I hope that he didnt end in Lolths Demonweb but then again where would he have gone since he didnt (as far as we know) have any other religion and would have ended up as the false (espcially since he loved killing those Lolthites)?? Yet I think that its mentioned in a Drizzt book, the one where they fight erttu again, that he's in a better place. . . |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 09:45:49
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I am not sure which edition that book was written under, but if he was going by older lore, then the Realms would have been linked to the Great Wheel still.
If that was the case, and he remained CN up until the time of his birth, the main possibility would be that he went to Limbo after death. Less likely would be a member of the Seldarine who liked him a lot (even if he didn't pray to them) snatching him up - possibly Fenmarel. Who also lives in Limbo, but has his own nifty domain. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 11:34:56
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Zak prolly ended up in the Fugue Plain and then in the wall of the faithless... which brings me back to one of the topics I wondered about several months ago.
But we are deviating from the topic |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 16:19:16
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| This discussion makes me remember why I really don't care for alignment. If its read dogmatic its a straitjacket and if its used with broad terms there isn't much use for it. |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 21:59:34
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| Zak didn't go the wall...Drizzt had a dream of his ghost and Zak's shade told Drizzt he was at peace |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 22:33:42
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quote:
This discussion makes me remember why I really don't care for alignment. If its read dogmatic its a straitjacket and if its used with broad terms there isn't much use for it.
That's when it becomes Planescsape.. And fun! :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 01:52:52
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Of course
Oh, here is a fun question. If Zak was to join any Planescape faction which one would he join? I say the Mercykillers(before they split) because of their love for justice and invividual retribution, plus their tendency to step away from the laws often and use chaotic, unorthadox methods to get people.
Fits Zak quite well. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Edited by - FridayThe13th on 10 Aug 2006 01:53:37 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 02:09:00
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Uh.
The Mercykillers are one of the 'triad of law' of Sigil - the Mercykillers, the Harmonium, and the Guvners.
Chaotic members are exceedingly rare, at best. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 02:28:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Zak didn't go the wall...Drizzt had a dream of his ghost and Zak's shade told Drizzt he was at peace
Not necessarily, I would not put it Zak lying to ease Drizzt's mind. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 10:19:46
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
I say the Mercykillers(before they split) because of their love for justice and invividual retribution, plus their tendency to step away from the laws often and use chaotic, unorthadox methods to get people.
...which "Mercykillers" have you been reading about? Some bizarro-world version of them in an alternate universe?
Mercykillers are nothing if not lawful to the tee. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 10:24:56
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Yup. Expanding on this...
Guvners: Judges.
Harmonium: Police.
Mercykillers: Executioners/Jailers.
The Lawful Triad, I calls 'em.
Then there's the Three-D's -
Dustmen: Death
Doomguard: Destruction
Bleakers: Despair
I think at one point I tried separating the factions by 3's and came pretty good by it.
Chaotic Triad: Xaositects, Revolutionary League, tne Indeps.
Etc. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 01:24:19
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Yup. Expanding on this...
Guvners: Judges.
Harmonium: Police.
Mercykillers: Executioners/Jailers.
The Lawful Triad, I calls 'em.
Then there's the Three-D's -
Dustmen: Death
Doomguard: Destruction
Bleakers: Despair
I think at one point I tried separating the factions by 3's and came pretty good by it.
Chaotic Triad: Xaositects, Revolutionary League, tne Indeps.
Etc.
Still, there is a vigilante side to Zak, and he does believe in his onw perverted sense of justice, and not all of his actions are chaotic. Killing drow priestesses I think, is his way of "enforcing law". By killing them, he thinks he is making the world a safer place for surface people.
Killing people to enforce a twisted justice, yup, sounds a lot like the Mercykillers to me.
Still, if you insist he is Chaotic Neutral, I guess he could fit in with the Revolutionary League.
And Winterfox, are you looking for another flame war? |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Edited by - FridayThe13th on 11 Aug 2006 01:25:10 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 01:51:50
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| The Mercykillers don't care about safety - they only care about punishing those lawfully condemned. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 01:58:08
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| When I read the first few posts of this thread I couldn't stop laughing... and I think you guys scared the original poster away. :) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 02:01:24
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
When I read the first few posts of this thread I couldn't stop laughing... and I think you guys scared the original poster away. :)
I think that someone who just wanted to know about Drizzt and the elf kid got a lot more than they bargained for
Well, that always happens when I get too passionate about philosophy |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 09:19:25
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
And Winterfox, are you looking for another flame war?
Uh, no. Get over yourself. You made a post that's so factually wrong it made me boggle; I commented on it. End of the story. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 11:21:01
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| As for Zaknafein's spirit, I am thinking that a deity who liked him picked him up upon his death.:) |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 14:58:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Gellion
As for Zaknafein's spirit, I am thinking that a deity who liked him picked him up upon his death.:)
As Prince of Lies, by Jim Lowder, has shown if a deity liked anyone or not isn't really the point, the point is the individual's worship of a deity. If that never happened this person is proclaimed faithless and off to the wall with him or her...
Zak was never portrayed praying to anyone, this would lead to the conclusion that he was faithless. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 15:23:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace HammerhandAs Prince of Lies, by Jim Lowder, has shown if a deity liked anyone or not isn't really the point, the point is the individual's worship of a deity. If that never happened this person is proclaimed faithless and off to the wall with him or her...
Zak was never portrayed praying to anyone, this would lead to the conclusion that he was faithless.
I agree with that...unless you go with (to paraphrase, what the Drizzt said) "I had her (Mielikki) in my heart, I just did not knew her name then"
thus Zak could be in a god's realm/heaven...unless you still use the older "Great Wheel" planar mechanics then Zak would have gone to the plane of his alignment...does that still happen in the "Great Tree" mechanics? |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 16:00:35
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| Hmmm i think when they wrote that book it was still the Great Wheel. . . hey so maybe ole Zak is in a better place |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 16:01:59
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I agree with that...unless you go with (to paraphrase, what the Drizzt said) "I had her (Mielikki) in my heart, I just did not knew her name then"
thus Zak could be in a god's realm/heaven...unless you still use the older "Great Wheel" planar mechanics then Zak would have gone to the plane of his alignment...does that still happen in the "Great Tree" mechanics?
That statement is kinda confusing, if you think about it. When Cyric cursed Adon to be afraid of Mystra he was, at first, considered to be one of the faithless as well. So you have to KNOW and LOVE/worship your god, which basically implies that you have to know the name he or she goes by. There is no other way.
If this statement for Zak held true as well, why put up such rules?
Sorry, Zak, in my book, is in the wall of the faithless, unless it is said anywhere he worships Vhaeraun or some/any other god. Since it doesn't mention him worshipping any god, and a feeling in one's heart really does nothing in terms of worship, he is doomed.
"Oh, now that I know you are there I worship you, I always have, even though I did not who you were, what you stand for, and what your dogmas are. I am your faithful worshiper."
I do not think so! |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 16:21:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
That statement is kinda confusing, if you think about it. When Cyric cursed Adon to be afraid of Mystra he was, at first, considered to be one of the faithless as well. So you have to KNOW and LOVE/worship your god, which basically implies that you have to know the name he or she goes by. There is no other way.
If this statement for Zak held true as well, why put up such rules?
Sorry, Zak, in my book, is in the wall of the faithless, unless it is said anywhere he worships Vhaeraun or some/any other god. Since it doesn't mention him worshipping any god, and a feeling in one's heart really does nothing in terms of worship, he is doomed.
"Oh, now that I know you are there I worship you, I always have, even though I did not who you were, what you stand for, and what your dogmas are. I am your faithful worshiper."
I do not think so!
just to add another facet to this discussion is the question is a God an individual or a force? I can explain best with an example:
A caring, selfless boy with a strong heart and a clear sense of right and wrong grows up in a corrupt city...when he gets older he joins the "police force" (or whatever they call their law enforcement) and becomes the archtypical "one good cop"...the man survives years on the force and in time cleans up the city council and brings order and justice to the city...he ends up being elected the ruler of the city. He dies happy and peacefully of old age. This good man, in a way, worshipped law and order, justice and mercy, goodness and "right" all his life, never truely sinned and never waivered in his beliefs.
So if this man had never once heard of Tyr, never was aware of the existance of Tyr, never knew the name of the god Tyr, but lived the life of a true champion of Tyr...would he be Faithless and go to the wall?
My point is if a deity is more a physical manifistation of a force in the world (wether physical or philosophical) then if you held that force in your heart, are you a worshipper? |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 16:35:11
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| Well. . . a Faithless person is more someone who rejects that God exists so in this case if someone has never heard of God or divinity then he'd be kinda of exempt right |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 17:20:20
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If soeone doesn't believe in any god at all and rejects the one god he knows about, in Zak's case Lolth, he is faithless.
Also the afterlife granted to the faithful is a reward so to speak, for being faithful, for giving their deity power through honest prayer, not deeds performed out of moral obligation or whathaveyou. If that were so Drizzt's soul, should he ever bite the dust, would be competed over by Mielikki (whom he worshiped) and Torm (because he always stood by his word, was loyal to his friends yada yada). But that does not happen, he will be picked up by Mielikki on the Fugue Plane and be taken to his god's domain, end of story.
You have to worship the deity to be granted a right to paradise. This ain't no happy-family-thingy, the gods are competative and in that regard they want (heck, need!) people to worship them. Why would Mielikki take Zak? Maybe Tempus would take him in, but why? It doesn't make sense for any of them! (see my argument above) |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 17:37:09
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| So what is the point of worshiping if you can get into whatever afterlife for free? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Drizzt and the elven child-- looking for spoilers
