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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 19:10:46
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| The Elric Saga. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 19:12:32
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
The Elric Saga. :)
A internet link plz. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Faramicos
Senior Scribe
Denmark
468 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 19:15:55
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| Thanks... But i am about to start on the University of Copenhagen next month... So my Forum activities will be very limited. But i will definately look into it. |
"When dragons make war, worlds can only tremble in the shadow of angry wings" |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 19:47:41
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
The Elric Saga. :)
A internet link plz.
Elric of Melnibone omnibus
Or look up Elric on Wikipedia. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 19:53:32
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| GothicDan: I like Elric, too, but have you read Karl Edward Wagner's Kane stories? Kane is my favorite sword-and-sorcery antihero (and really, a much darker and more amoral figure than the White Wolf.) |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 19:58:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
The Elric Saga. :)
A internet link plz.
Elric of Melnibone omnibus
Or look up Elric on Wikipedia.
K, thanks.
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"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 20:01:01
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I like Elric, but there are much better books by Moorcock, both fantasy, sci-fi and others. Among them Dancers at the end of time, the Von Bek books, The Black Corridor, Gloriana, Mother London and Behold the Man.
Its been a while since I red Wagner, but I seem to remember them being good. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 20:24:59
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Oh, I agree. I definitely prefer Dancers at the End of Time over Elric.
But I imagine some of Moorcock's books would be too unconventional for some, and at any rate, Elric is the one in whom people find parallels with Drizzt (or at least, in Elric's early little phase). |
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Genis
Learned Scribe
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 20:29:16
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| Hazaa....hazaa...let it be'ith known that drizzt is a cry baby...tho thee kick'ith alot of ass |
Unofficial Random Hiatus Taker. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 21:00:45
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quote:
GothicDan: I like Elric, too, but have you read Karl Edward Wagner's Kane stories? Kane is my favorite sword-and-sorcery antihero (and really, a much darker and more amoral figure than the White Wolf.)
I haven't read him, actually. What I kind of like about Elric is that he really tries to straddle the bounds of morality - that he's not too dark, but far from light. I think that's sort of key to being an antihero... Too dark, and you're just no longer a hero.
*Makes note of Wagner's books.* Hopefully I'll have some time to actually read novels after I go back to college... |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 21:45:51
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Last time I knew, this was a FR board.....
So, in otherwords, get back on topic. If you want to discuss nonFR stuff, send emails/PM's. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 00:16:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Faramicos
I LOVE THE DRIZZT BOOKS... With that settled i would like to point out that every master has his flaws. You cant write in the area of 15 books about the same character without stepping on some peoples toes. The books are a strike of genious which i have read several times over the years, with great pleasure every time. The criticism of some aspects of the books are understandable enough, but the sequences they are describing are a drop in the ocean. The strengths of the books and the entertainment they deliver overshadows the tiny flaws they have to such a scale that it hardly is worth mentioning.
And a great "TOUCHE" to Lameth... Critical voice or not, something in the books have kept the interest of the reader through what have become the most famous saga of the realms.
If there are a list of Salvatore fans... SIGN ME UP
Could not have said it better myself. I startef FR novels with the Moonshae Trilogy, but it was the crystal shard that set the hook.
If it were not for thoose first "Drizzt" books putting me over the top , I(as well as many others) would sure have much more space on my bookshelf as I am not sure if I would have tried another FR for a while or not. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 08:31:38
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I think I started with Avatar.
As for strengths and botches. *shrug* As has been stated numerous times, and as I have stated before, Drizzt is a comic book hero, not a novel protagonist. Comic books do have tons of appeal, yet they also have a major flaw: there is no development in the characters.
The stuff has its positive sides, but since it takes place in a world that is also developed by others and is living, so to speak, the fact that the books ignore many parts of established background, even though RAS has shaped the north and thus created his own share of lore, him discarding the lore is:
A) lack of respect for the world (if you write in a shared world environment bloody deal with it! People who have written for Perry Rhodan since 1961 know this all too well!)
B) lack of interest for any sort of continuity, which would be ok, if it is just your world and you make the botches.
Anyone who says continuitry doesn't matter probably doesn't mind if his fridge stands in the bedroom some day, and all by itself. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 16:58:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace HammerhandAs has been stated numerous times, and as I have stated before, Drizzt is a comic book hero, not a novel protagonist. Comic books do have tons of appeal, yet they also have a major flaw: there is no development in the characters.
I heartily agree with you, Mace. Drizzt as a character hasn't changed much since he left Menzoberranzan. I've read all the Drizzt novels and whilst they are entertaining and R.A Salvatore writes well, they fail to satisfy. The character of Drizzt hasn't developed. In a way he's the same as Superman. His typical day involves kicking bad-guy butt and failing to establish a recognisable relationship with the girl he really likes.
I no longer identify with Drizzt and I feel that a reader should identify with a book's characters - on some level. In the Dark Elf trilogy, he was a character who felt the world was against him and there are times when I've felt like that so there was some common ground between me and the character. He had obstacles and real challenges and these were resolved by the end of the trilogy.
However, as new books have been written the impact of the question, 'Will Drizzt overcome the challenge?' has been lessened. I have a good idea he will because he's done so before. The Hunter's Blades trilogy didn't really develop the character because I know he's faced very similar situations before.
To return to the Superman analogy, he only really gets interesting when he encounters Kyptonite but you know he'll find a way around it. With Drizzt, it no longer matters what opponents he faces because I feel very confident he'll win.
I personally think Drizzt would improve if he and Cattie-Brie had a daughter who was fascinated by her drow heritage and by Lolth. Just as Drizzt was born 'good,' what would happen if his child was born 'evil,' Now that would be a new challenge and a real chance to progress the character.
Put it another way, if a friend of yours was still saying the same stuff after ten years wouldn't you find their conversation a little boring. In my opinion, literary characters have to grow and have to change because that's what a story is about. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 22:41:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Mace HammerhandAs has been stated numerous times, and as I have stated before, Drizzt is a comic book hero, not a novel protagonist. Comic books do have tons of appeal, yet they also have a major flaw: there is no development in the characters.
I heartily agree with you, Mace. Drizzt as a character hasn't changed much since he left Menzoberranzan. I've read all the Drizzt novels and whilst they are entertaining and R.A Salvatore writes well, they fail to satisfy. The character of Drizzt hasn't developed. In a way he's the same as Superman. His typical day involves kicking bad-guy butt and failing to establish a recognisable relationship with the girl he really likes.
I no longer identify with Drizzt and I feel that a reader should identify with a book's characters - on some level. In the Dark Elf trilogy, he was a character who felt the world was against him and there are times when I've felt like that so there was some common ground between me and the character. He had obstacles and real challenges and these were resolved by the end of the trilogy.
However, as new books have been written the impact of the question, 'Will Drizzt overcome the challenge?' has been lessened. I have a good idea he will because he's done so before. The Hunter's Blades trilogy didn't really develop the character because I know he's faced very similar situations before.
To return to the Superman analogy, he only really gets interesting when he encounters Kyptonite but you know he'll find a way around it. With Drizzt, it no longer matters what opponents he faces because I feel very confident he'll win.
I personally think Drizzt would improve if he and Cattie-Brie had a daughter who was fascinated by her drow heritage and by Lolth. Just as Drizzt was born 'good,' what would happen if his child was born 'evil,' Now that would be a new challenge and a real chance to progress the character.
Put it another way, if a friend of yours was still saying the same stuff after ten years wouldn't you find their conversation a little boring. In my opinion, literary characters have to grow and have to change because that's what a story is about.
Ah, first he is forced to kill his father, who is good but under evil control.
Then he must hunt and kill his daughter who is evil.
Could be interesting. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 00:54:09
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Ah, first he is forced to kill his father, who is good but under evil control.
Well, actually his father was neutral, both in terms of alignment as well as (IMO) his actions. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 09 Aug 2006 00:54:21 |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Michael Moorcock is teh rox at the anti-hero shtick.
He practically invented it in fantasy literature.
Elric, with the whole gothic tone and all, looks very interesting and I will definatly check it out.
Still, personally I think the best anti-hero is Raistlin Majere from DL.
Nope, Drizzt hasen't changed one bit, still same sentimental, uber-munchkin Drizzt. All the main Fr characters seem to have plot immunity.
But if you guys think Drizzt is bad, you should never read "Dance of Demons" by Gary Gyrax. The main character, Gord the Rogue, kills thousands of demons like they were goblins, slays a Greater God, and kills a lot of Demon Princes on their HOME PLANE, sometimes at once. Talk about Uber-Munchkinship |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:11:26
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Uh. Raistlin isn't an anti-hero. Well, not for the majority of his time of fame.
He is, by definition, a villain. :) He's just one that we sympathize with.
That being said - to echo Rino: Zaknafein is listed as Chaotic Neutral. Personally, I would have found reading about his life probably a tad bit more interesting than Drizzt's. Being forced to live constantly with atrocity... A bit more interesting to watch the psychology develop. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 09 Aug 2006 03:12:35 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:39:40
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Uh. Raistlin isn't an anti-hero. Well, not for the majority of his time of fame.
He is, by definition, a villain. :) He's just one that we sympathize with.
That being said - to echo Rino: Zaknafein is listed as Chaotic Neutral. Personally, I would have found reading about his life probably a tad bit more interesting than Drizzt's. Being forced to live constantly with atrocity... A bit more interesting to watch the psychology develop.
Yeah, but he sure loved to kill those priestesses of lloth!! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:48:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Yeah, but he sure loved to kill those priestesses of lloth!!
The fact that he took such gratuitous pleasure from killing them is, in fact, one small part of why he was Chaotic Neutral rather than good.
Zaknafein wasn't the saint that he is often made out to be, either by Drizzt or his fans. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:54:55
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Any time you take an enjoyment in KILLING... It's not good.
I don't really care what the BoED says about killing evil. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:23:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Yeah, but he sure loved to kill those priestesses of lloth!!
The fact that he took such gratuitous pleasure from killing them is, in fact, one small part of why he was Chaotic Neutral rather than good.
Zaknafein wasn't the saint that he is often made out to be, either by Drizzt or his fans.
I guess there is merit to that, it is hard for one to become truly good growing up in the twisted underdark, non matter now pure you are.
Although I would put Zaknafein at True Neutral rather than chaotic neutral because I don't really think he is an individualist, he did care a lot about Drizzt. He seemed the type of character who always made the smartest and most reasonable choices, which is why he did not leave the underdark.
Raistlin certainly is an anti-hero in the Chronicles series, and he was kind of an anti-hero in the last book of legends. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Edited by - FridayThe13th on 09 Aug 2006 05:24:45 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:25:48
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
I guess there is merit to that, it is hard for one to become truly good growing up in the twisted underdark, non matter now pure you are.
Right, which is why I think it's silly that--
Nevermind. It wouldn't be fair to start yet another debate about Drizzt. 
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:26:53
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quote:
Raistlin certainly is an anti-hero in the Chronicles series, and he was kind of an anti-hero in the last book of legends.
Don't get me wrong, I am still a big fan of Raistlin, but he exhibits far too many villainous qualities (even in many parts of Chronicles) to be considered an antihero overall. At certain times, yes, but overall? No.
As to Zak's alignment - you claim that Chaotic can't be caring.. Yet look at Selune and Sune. Two of the most caring deities around. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:30:10
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
Raistlin certainly is an anti-hero in the Chronicles series, and he was kind of an anti-hero in the last book of legends.
Don't get me wrong, I am still a big fan of Raistlin, but he exhibits far too many villainous qualities (even in many parts of Chronicles) to be considered an antihero overall. At certain times, yes, but overall? No.
As to Zak's alignment - you claim that Chaotic can't be caring.. Yet look at Selune and Sune. Two of the most caring deities around. :)
I am not saying that chaotic cannot be caring, I am saying that CHAOTIC NEUTRAL usually describes someone who is extremely egocentric and cares about himself above all other.
Just take the WoTC alignment test and get chaotic neutral, look at the definition, you will see what I mean |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:31:53
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quote:
I am not saying that chaotic cannot be caring, I am saying that CHAOTIC NEUTRAL usually describes someone who is extremely egocentric and cares about himself above all other.
Elric is best described as CN and he carried very much for several people. At heart, chaotic neutral means that you engage in your passions from one moment to the next without any real thoughts of good or evil. That may be for better or for worse, for those around you.
quote:
Just take the WoTC alignment test and get chaotic neutral, look at the definition, you will see what I mean
Alignment has been around for a lot longer than that test. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:35:19
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
I am not saying that chaotic cannot be caring, I am saying that CHAOTIC NEUTRAL usually describes someone who is extremely egocentric and cares about himself above all other.
Elric is best described as CN and he carried very much for several people. At heart, chaotic neutral means that you engage in your passions from one moment to the next without any real thoughts of good or evil. That may be for better or for worse, for those around you.
quote:
Just take the WoTC alignment test and get chaotic neutral, look at the definition, you will see what I mean
Alignment has been around for a lot longer than that test. :)
Still, Zak does seem more True Neutral to me. But I guess you have a point. I guess he could be True Neutral with chaotic neutral tendencies. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 08:16:36
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Alignment has been around for a lot longer than that test. :)
Alignment is one of the things I've never liked about D&D, for all 25 years I've been aware of it. Far too many people justify their actions in terms of 'well that's what my alignment says I'll do.' The Player's Guide says it best when it says not to use alignment as a straitjacket.
I'm going to run away from the alignment debate now. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 08:18:12
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I love alignment, because of the moral conflicts it can present, and, well, the ability to play with it. Planescape makes a big deal about the definitions of alignment being much more abstract than in any of the core books from any edition, and that's why I like it so much (among other reasons).
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Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 08:37:50
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Elric, if I remember correctly, was statted out with CE alignment in the original Deities & Demigods... I might be wrong tho...been a long time since I looked at that tome. As for CN, 2nd edition has CN described as being a totally random almost insane person.
Maybe that fits Zak, but does it really matter? Realmswise he has been dead for a couple decades... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Drizzt and the elven child-- looking for spoilers
