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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 17:44:55
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Well the point I'm making is that those characters u mentioned had to be tricked, essentially they had heard of and worshipped Gods already, in the case of the good cop, he's never heard of religion, so its not really his fault that he doesnt have a faith, that doesnt make him faithless because he doesnt reject divinity. . . so I guess he'd go to some odd limbo(maybe staying on the Fugue plain forever?)While he might not enjoy any specific divine paradise. . . i don't think the said person would go to the wall of the faithless.
This however is a MOOT point because in Faerun, signs of divinity are so common and happenstance, that its nearly impossible to not have heard of one greater power or the other
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 18:32:21
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As I asked before..in the new "Great Tree" planology do souls eithor go to a God's realm or go to the wall (I havn't paid much attention to the new Realms Planology before)?
In the "Great Wheel" outerplanes that good cop would have been reborn as a petitioner (or better) in The seven Heavens/Mount Celestia (LG) or maybe Arcadia or the Twin Paradises/Bytopia (depending if he leaned more towards (N) LG or LG (N)) if he worshipped no one patron deity...
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 19:25:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
Well the point I'm making is that those characters u mentioned had to be tricked, essentially they had heard of and worshipped Gods already, in the case of the good cop, he's never heard of religion, so its not really his fault that he doesnt have a faith, that doesnt make him faithless because he doesnt reject divinity. . . so I guess he'd go to some odd limbo(maybe staying on the Fugue plain forever?)While he might not enjoy any specific divine paradise. . . i don't think the said person would go to the wall of the faithless.
I guess this comes down to a definition of "faithless." If faithless means having specifically rejected faith or just not having enough of it, then I would agree. I take "faithless" to mean having no faith, whether you lost it, never had it, or never heard of it. But that's just my opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
This however is a MOOT point because in Faerun, signs of divinity are so common and happenstance, that its nearly impossible to not have heard of one greater power or the other
That's absolutely true, I would think it next to impossible to live in Faerun and not been exposed to at least one religion. |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 19:33:24
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"Even the faithful who were deliberately tricked by a god couldn't join their respective deities in the afterlife."
Umm but in the case of the good cop as i have said before, this is someone who has never heard of religion or god, so how then can this person be labelled as faithless?? Faithless are technically, and in faerunian terms, those who forsake their belief in the gods and this person can't forsake what he's never heard of, so how does that qualify him as faithless? btw gwydion is put into the wall not because he is faithless but because of Cyric's whims, he should have been false but Cyric just wanted to piss Torm off.
So this person shld be in LIMBO or as kalin said reborn as a petitioner on some goodly plane wiithout needing to go to some cosy, divine hole in the ground |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 19:34:49
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| Hmm ok i take your meaning on faithless but i guess in D&D and the realms, its pretty clearly defined |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 20:05:58
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I can't remember the official Forgotten Realms definitions but her goes (correct me if I am wrong on anything):
Basically in D&D, until 3rd Ed., when you died your soul passed through the Astral Plane (losing all your memories that is why the Astral is "the plane of thought" but a god can allow you to keep your memories) and entered the Outer Planes. If you were a devout worshipper of a god then you were reborn in the god’s realm as a divine petitioner. If you did not devote yourself to one god then you were reborn on the Outer Plane that most closely matched your current alignment (as in the alignment you were when you died, not the alignment you had in the past i.e. Redemption/Corruption) as a typical planar petitioner. Petitioners could then evolve into true planar beings. For both divine and typical petitioners if you do not evolve into a higher being you will slowly be purified by your god/alignment until you merge into your god or plane. And that is the end of the end as stated in AD&D.
As far as I know in the Forgotten Realms novel The Crucible the Fughe (sp?) plane/demiplane/pocket plane was introduced...basically the waiting room for souls that have just exited the Astral Plane. On the Fughe Plane your god or servant of your god would then pick you up and bring you to their Realm. These are the FAITHFUL
If you denied the existence of the gods (atheist), never believed in a god nor never prayed once to a god directly then you are a FAITHLESS and your punishment was nigh-eternal punishment as a brick in the living wall of souls surrounding the Realm of the Dead
If you betrayed your god or your faith (or jumped ship from god to god over your life) then you were the FALSE and were fed to the Night Serpent Dendar
And the average NPC (farmer, noble, merchant, whatever) usually doesn’t dedicate themselves to one god but honors all the gods equally as all the gods (good, neutral and evil) influence your life...either by supplicating for aid or for mercy. And when Joe-NPC died they either went with their most prayed-to god or to their matching Alignment Plane
Now my problem/question is this – with the new “Great Tree” cosmology of the Realms where does Joe-NPC goes if he was not devout to any one god in particular as it looks like there are no “Alignment Planes” as such left (yes, larvae appear in the Abyss, Hells, etc. but it’s not really the same)
And an extra observation, that scout that served Torm in the Crucible but had prayed mostly to Mask, thus his soul went to Mask and became Mask’s proxie
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 05:23:23
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Well, I don't think Zak has shown any indication of living by the philosophies of any god, he is just too free-spirited for that. Plus he did know about many gods( not just Lolth, he could have worshipped Elistraee or any of the other drow deities as well). So by all accounts of the definition he should end up at the wall.
However some faithless's actions in life can sometimes interest a deity so much that they will go to the wall and claim their soul. If you find Zaknaefin's fate too grim for such a great "hero", there is always a possibility that he has been claimed. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 05:34:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Zak didn't go the wall...Drizzt had a dream of his ghost and Zak's shade told Drizzt he was at peace
Not necessarily, I would not put it Zak lying to ease Drizzt's mind.
I don't think Zak was lying, partly because of RAS's writing style. The general rule is happiness at the end--or at least peace--for Drizzt and his closest friends and loved ones.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 05:36:05
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
Still, there is a vigilante side to Zak, and he does believe in his onw perverted sense of justice, and not all of his actions are chaotic. Killing drow priestesses I think, is his way of "enforcing law". By killing them, he thinks he is making the world a safer place for surface people.
It seemed to me that Zak's zeal in killing drow priestesses came from his hatred, not out of any "higher ideal". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 05:45:09
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| Umm yeah i agree Zak hated Lolth and the best way of showing his defiance to this twisted city and its ideal was the kill the epitome of this, the priestesses. It was like his way of saying in your face LOLTH!! For me i think his better side is shown when he doesn't want Drizzt to go to the Academy and his anger at Drizzt when he thought he had killed the elven child, rather than his vindictive killing of the priestesses( not that they didn't deserve it though) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 05:48:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
Umm yeah i agree Zak hated Lolth and the best way of showing his defiance to this twisted city and its ideal was the kill the epitome of this, the priestesses. It was like his way of saying in your face LOLTH!! For me i think his better side is shown when he doesn't want Drizzt to go to the Academy and his anger at Drizzt when he thought he had killed the elven child
That's his better side? He was ready to kill Drizzt even before he knew all the facts (IIRC--it's been years since I read these books--he didn't even let Drizzt explain himself first). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 05:49:33
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| Yeah.. Definitely neutral. Isolated cases of kindness/good (especially when one's own flesh and blood is the subject) certainly doesn't qualify one as "good" overall, I don't think. :) |
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"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 05:50:23
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Yeah.. Definitely neutral. Isolated cases of kindness/good (especially when one's own flesh and blood is the subject) certainly doesn't qualify one as "good" overall, I don't think. :)
I don't think so either. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 05:57:21
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| Well it was such a celebrated and recognised fact and don't forget that he thought that drizzt had come out of the Academy a drow killer. The fact that he thought he killed the elven child( not of his own blood) shows that he feels outraged by this, as any good person would have. but on the whole Zak was most definately neutral |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 06:10:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
Well it was such a celebrated and recognised fact
What was?
quote:
and don't forget that he thought that drizzt had come out of the Academy a drow killer.
Big surprise, given that Drizzt probably would not have survived if it were any other way.
quote:
The fact that he thought he killed the elven child( not of his own blood) shows that he feels outraged by this, as any good person would have.
Yeah, but Zak wasn't merely outraged, he was ready to send Drizzt to the gods without so much as letting him explain what happened, first. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 12 Aug 2006 06:10:58 |
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 06:43:08
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| He loved killing Drow a little too much to be good. He's neutral. And even evil people can feel compassion for their own kin, or even a companion. Just look at Sememmon and Ashemmi. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 06:52:32
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| Umm the fact that he killed the elven child but well yeah Zak was regretting his decision to not kill Drizzt before he was sent to the Academy, so the "killing of the elven child" kinda confirmed that he made a wrong choice |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2006 : 12:46:55
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Oh yeah, after they contact her spirit and she tells him all is well....
Does anyone know in which book that happens? I just read the latest trilogy (Hunter's blades) and found no evidence of such an event..... |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 15 Sep 2006 12:53:55 |
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Dremvek
Seeker
70 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2006 : 15:36:02
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| It's in a short story in the Realms of the Elves anthology. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2006 : 17:15:17
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| Thanks Dremvek - for I was almost going nuts over that - having read the books and all I could not have missed it.... |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 15:37:31
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I'm inclined to think that there's the fact that Zak never worshiped Lolth to begin with so the idea he'd be False to her is pretty silly. He might have been faithless but we also know that Kelemvor allows some "post-death" changes as Adon shows. To that end, I imagine the Elven Gods claimed him.
Hard and fast rules for Forgotten Realms aren't how the world is portrayed in the books.
As for the Elven Child plotline, I honestly felt it didnt' work out very well because the girl was such an unlikeable little psycho. Plenty of people have suffered tremendous casualties and the idea that she'd go deliberately after the person who saved her life only marks her as an unlikeable nutter. I wish she'd been consigned to the Elvish version of Hell frankly.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Weiser_Cain
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 22:25:59
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I think Zak would be faithless as I don't see how he'd have the opportunity to worship anyone but Lloth and he wasn't doing that.
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I'm always the Wizard! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 22:32:56
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Meh, R.A. has said that he's in Arvandor.
Maybe Zak got a last minute "I pledge myself to the powers of the Surface elves that hate Lolth" before he hit the acid.
Frankly, I like that there might be exceptions to the appalling rules of the Afterlife.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 22:46:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Meh, R.A. has said that he's in Arvandor.
Quote please. I won't believe you until you supply a quote that's dated and referenced. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 22:52:56
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| So, you can't supply the quote? Figures. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 23:26:24
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Can you supply a quote that Drizzt do'urden defeated the Balor Errtu?
No?
Because you don't have to. It happened in the books. No need to be snarky about this Kuje. It's a matter of author intent and factuality in the books. The question isn't whether Zak is in Arvandor or not but whether he should be according to Realms cosmology.
Denying that he is on the other hand, is sort of silly don't you agree?
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2007 : 23:41:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Meh, R.A. has said that he's in Arvandor.
I've heard this before, at WotC. Though, when I've asked for confirmation on this, or at least RAS's post itself, posters have come up short.
Do you have RAS's quote for this?
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Drizzt and the elven child-- looking for spoilers
