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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 01:44:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
I'm honestly happy things've been changing like that...about time a Chosen was gone.
Why? What's the problem with the Chosen?
Although I've avoided most of the SPOILER parts of this particular scroll (as my copy of Blackstaff has not arrived yet), I'm intrigued by such a statement.
The Chosen of Mystra serve a very specific and very important role in both the Realms and the fiction -- moreso than any other "Divine Champion" presented so far. Their very presence is integral to the game itself. Why would you want one gone?
If nothing else, I'd chose to thin out the ranks of the other "Chosen", before selecting a Chosen of Mystra to pass on.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 31 Jul 2006 01:48:56 |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 02:09:30
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Yes, good point, Rinonalyrna....still though, I'm looking forward to it. After ages of 'same old same old', I'm glad some things are changing. The Twilight War seems interesting.
and frankly? The Chosen are boring. They're constantly overpowered, trite and cliche with little if anything to their names with personalities that can be replicated ad nauseum with little difference from male to male or female to female. It's just a shame the most interesting one had to go. Because they've stagnated far too long and whenever most of them are around, they make things so much less fun. Summed up? They've been boring and overpowered for years and it's about time of them's bitten the dust. You might as well ask 'what's wrong with Drizzt and co?'
Why weed out the ranks of other Chosen? Can you even think of any others off the top of your head? I can think of...Cadderly. Fzoul. Lady Penitent..any others? I had to think for two of those. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 02:17:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Yes, good point, Rinonalyrna....still though, I'm looking forward to it. After ages of 'same old same old', I'm glad some things are changing. The Twilight War seems interesting.
I didn't feel the Realms was "stuck in a rut", myself, but that's just me. 
quote:
Why weed out the ranks of other Chosen? Can you even think of any others off the top of your head? I can think of...Cadderly. Fzoul. Lady Penitent..any others? I had to think for two of those.
I can. There's a huge list of them somewhere around here. *shudders* |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 02:26:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
and frankly? The Chosen are boring. They're constantly overpowered, trite and cliche with little if anything to their names with personalities that can be replicated ad nauseum with little difference from male to male or female to female.
You mean, besides the near 20 years of published lore and source material that relates to the individual Chosen of Mystra and their places in the Realms? Not to mention all the years of unpublished material on the Chosen that Ed's got in basement...
quote:
Because they've stagnated far too long and whenever most of them are around, they make things so much less fun.
Stagnated? The Chosen are supposed to be characters that have little true impact on the daily life of the Realms. Where they really come into play is in the background -- supporting the essence of the setting itself and handling tasks and combating terrors that no regular character can ever fully conceive.
The Chosen of Mystra aren't characters that grow and develop in the ways that non-Chosen characters do. They grow and develop in ways that are supposed to be different, and that relate to the setting, its tales and the gods themselves. That's what makes them important and that's what makes them integral to the fabric of FR. They're not stagnate characters... they're characters that have reached a level of power and ability that promotes a new kind of character growth, relating more to the expansion of their power, ability and position within the Realms.
quote:
Why weed out the ranks of other Chosen? Can you even think of any others off the top of your head? I can think of...Cadderly. Fzoul. Lady Penitent..any others? I had to think for two of those.
Sure.
A weeding out of any of these would suit me fine...
Bane
Fzoul Chembryl
Cyric
Malik el Sami yn Nasser
Deneir
Cadderly Bonaduce
Pertelope (deceased)
Eilistraee
Qilue Veladorn
Eldath
Ashenford Torinbow
Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers
Shinthala Deepcrest
Gilgleam
Shuruppak (ExChosen since Gilgleam's death)
Mask
Kesson Rel
Avner of Hartsvale
Erevis Cale
Drasek Riven
Mielikki
Jeryth Phaulkon
Ashenford Torinbow
Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers
Shinthala Deepcrest
Oghma
Sephris Dwendon
Shar
Underdark said she has one, but name and race wasn't given.
Silvanus
Ashenford Torinbow
Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers
Shinthala Deepcrest
Talona
The Rotting man (Unapproachable East)
Ubtao
Alisandra Rayburton
Dhlamass Rayburton
Ras Ni
Fipya
Kwalu
Mainu
Ossaw I
Umberlee
Slarkrathel
Malar
Anth-Malar
Lolth
Liriel Baenre (possibly but might be a ExChosen)
Halisstra Melarn, the Lady Penitent
Merrshaulk/Sseth
Pil'it'ith (ExChosen)
Sehanine Moonbow
Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep
Labelas Enoreth
Vartan Hai Sylver
The Seldarine (elven pantheon)
Queen Amlaruil of Evermeet
Ilyrana
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 02:26:57
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 02:43:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Cult of the Dragon is far from obliterated. As you will see.
-- George Krashos
That certainly wouldnt fit with the conclusion of the Ruin where the Chromatics turned on the cultists
Sure it does: not every cell had a dragon handy. Further, I see no reason to assume that every dragon that was being courted by the Cult had Cultists in constant attendance -- so even cells that were actively courting chromatics might have only lost a few members. And that's not unusual for the Cult. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 02:58:36
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Really going to have to disagree with the, "You could swap thier names amongst themselves and still have the same characters." For anyone to say that in seriousness, shows me that they have no idea, or have never read the material, about the Chosen of Mystra, the background of these NPC's, their personalities, etc.
However, I wouldn't remove Eilistraee's and Sehanine's Chosen because those two are also, or were, dual Chosen's of Mystra. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 31 Jul 2006 03:00:32 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 03:11:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Really going to have to disagree with the, "You could swap thier names amongst themselves and still have the same characters." For anyone to say that in seriousness, shows me that they have no idea, or have never read the material, about the Chosen of Mystra, the background of these NPC's, their personalities, etc.
Exactly.
There's simply too much background material on the individual Chosen of Mystra to suggest that their roles are somehow unimportant or that they do not differentiate from each other.
We have particular favorites among the Chosen because they are different from each other. For example, I prefer Elminster and Khelben over most of the other Chosen. I don't dislike the other Chosen of Mystra, but in terms of character development and overall scope -- Elminster and Khelben ranks as my favorites.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 04:02:57
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If anything, it's the new characters that I've found absolutely boring.
The Princes of Shade didn't have a bone of character in their bodies between all of them. It was Random Evil Shadow Mage # 1 falls down, Evil Shadow Mage # 2 throws a Magic Missile, and so on. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 06:07:54
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I have reason to believe that you have misinterpreted my message.
I don't believe I've ever said anything about "introducing new characters". Instead, my post implicitly expresses that the new characters that we have for the recent novels can use a little bit of further development (i.e. more things happen to them). For a reasonable amount of development to occur, skipping ahead a decade or two is not absurd. I mean, just look at the past 5 years in FR, how many things have occur? In order for WotC to maintain interest in FR, they have to throw in RSE every know or then averaging about perhaps 1 RSE/FR year, which is a bit ridicules.
So in a sense, I am making a point about revisiting these now-introduced "new" characters.
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
I think it is probably a good time for the realms to skip ahead a few decades for the new characters and events to develop...
Haven't we had enough of an influx of "new characters new characters new characters" for a while? WotC is already under the impression that revisiting old characters is a bad idea (hence the godawful, long delay until EC was asked to do the final S&S book).
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 06:20:24
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quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
In order for WotC to maintain interest in FR, they have to throw in RSE every know or then averaging about perhaps 1 RSE/FR year, which is a bit ridicules.
These are actually driving me away from FR. Like many of us, I'm tired of the RSE's and a lot of them are contrived. I'm also tired of WOTC removing many of the plots that could have been expanded by DM's. Reading over the early 3e and 3.5e FR sourcebooks, I've seen about ten or more plots that WOTC has removed.
As for new characters, shrug. There's thousands of characters in the old lore that have never been expanded on and there's still tons of lore about other characters that still hasn't seen the print. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 31 Jul 2006 06:48:10 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 06:33:04
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
If anything, it's the new characters that I've found absolutely boring.
The Princes of Shade didn't have a bone of character in their bodies between all of them. It was Random Evil Shadow Mage # 1 falls down, Evil Shadow Mage # 2 throws a Magic Missile, and so on.
"I cast Magic Missile at the darkness!"
Ahem. At any rate, I agree. Some of the newer characters are interesting, but most, I find, are complete bores (Scions of Arrabar, Return of the Archwizards, Last Mythal, some of the ones featured in the Sembia series). Sometimes, the "introduce new characters! Newnewnew!" created nothing more than a contest to see who can churn out more cardboard cut-outs. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 06:38:39
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quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo For a reasonable amount of development to occur, skipping ahead a decade or two is not absurd. I mean, just look at the past 5 years in FR, how many things have occur?
You develop characters organically by writing about them over time, not by arbitrarily skipping ahead on the timeline. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 07:11:49
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1 RSE/year would make me very upset.
In real life, how many truly continent-shaking events do we have? How regularly?
The World Wars... Alexander the Great... The Roman Empire's conquest.. The Ottoman invasion..
Not all that many. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 31 Jul 2006 07:12:36 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 07:29:41
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Well, quite a few more than that Dan, but I agree with your main point. The realms have the last fifteen years experienced as many catastrophe's as one would expect from a millennium.
I have the feeling that everything has gone a circle soon; all areas that were relatively stable in 1ed have been thrown into some kind of chaos and all areas of chaos have been organised. Is there one major area that has not had some kind of change in government or status? I know I am exaggerating, but I think you see my point.
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 07:33:47
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One could go on at length over how different and/or unique each of Mystra's Chosen is in comparison to any other....but OTOH the vast majority of folks haven’t read 20 years of material, and so don't see the Chosen for what we know them to be.
This also puts perspective on the notion that the Chosen are 'integral to the game' in some way. For most campaigns eliminating the Chosen or simply ignoring them outright is the first order of business, with their absence having exactly zero negative impact on such campaigns as a result.
On the contrary, removing them ensures Player Characters get to step into their rightful place as adversaries of whatever threat faces Faerûn.
From a setting perspective, I think Schend was wise to spend (so to speak) a Chosen of Mystra, because we get to see them doing more than just playing at being all-powerful save the day super heroes in fantasy form.
We now see that some Chosen are fated (a cynic might say doomed). We see they can’t last forever. We see them as totally committed hands of the divinity they serve, and so we see the hand of said divinity at work in the Realms...which in turn keeps the setting alive and moving forward.
It’s good for the setting, methinks, that their number are lessened.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 31 Jul 2006 07:36:32 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 07:46:02
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quote:
One could go on at length over how different and/or unique each of Mystra's Chosen is in comparison to any other....but OTOH the vast majority of folks haven’t read 20 years of material, and so don't see the Chosen for what we know them to be.
That makes their opinion ignorant. Not trying to use that word in the offensive manner, but simply in its original definition.
quote:
This also puts perspective on the notion that the Chosen are 'integral to the game' in some way. For most campaigns eliminating the Chosen or simply ignoring them outright is the first order of business, with their absence having exactly zero negative impact on such campaigns as a result.
Of course their absence doesn't have any impact - because they don't have the knowledge about just what the Chosen do and mean in the setting. That's like saying, 'Sure, you could take this variable out of this equation and it would make no difference!' To someone who doesn't know calculus, of course it wouldn't.
quote:
On the contrary, removing them ensures Player Characters get to step into their rightful place as adversaries of whatever threat faces Faerûn.
So who's stopping the Twisted Rune or the Red Wizards or the Cult of the Dragon while the PCs are still low level?
quote:
From a setting perspective, I think Schend was wise to spend (so to speak) a Chosen of Mystra, because we get to see them doing more than just playing at being all-powerful save the day super heroes in fantasy form.
Oddly enough, I never saw them as that.
quote:
We now see that some Chosen are fated (a cynic might say doomed). We see they can’t last forever. We see them as totally committed hands of the divinity they serve, and so we see the hand of said divinity at work in the Realms...which in turn keeps the setting alive and moving forward.
How?
quote:
It’s good for the setting, methinks, that their number are lessened.
It won't last for long, because Mystra has to make up that power elsewhere, by AO's decree.
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Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 07:47:55
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quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
In order for WotC to maintain interest in FR, they have to throw in RSE every know or then averaging about perhaps 1 RSE/FR year, which is a bit ridicules.
Well, I disagree with that policy. But then, that should be little surprise to many here.
You see, it's these near-constant RSEs that are making me less interested in the "epic-event" state of some of the 3e Realmslore and more inclined to fall-back upon the extensive older Realmslore from previous editions, for my campaigns. I don't run RSEs in my campaign... in fact, I never have in any campaign that includes "great setting-shattering events."
I dislike the fact that we are almost regularly presented with new angles and new events such as these, especially when plenty of past angles and past events remain largely unexplored in the 3e FR. Or even worse, past angles and past events apparently forgotten entirely or pushed aside in favor of these newer angles and events. I'm not saying stop with the presentation of new angles and new events... because these elements are necessary to carry the setting forward. But a little moderation would be nice. As well as more balance... a few older plots mixed in with the new. Right now, it seems even the few older plots that have managed to peek through into the 3e FR, are swamped by those new plots presented.
What I would like is a little more recognition of older plots and events, carried through into the 3e... with a nod toward those of us who've been with the FR since 1987.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 31 Jul 2006 07:50:03 |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 08:23:38
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
That makes their opinion ignorant. Not trying to use that word in the offensive manner, but simply in its original definition.
I don’t think the usage is offensive. I also don’t think such technically ignorant opinions are invalid either.
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Of course their absence doesn't have any impact - because they don't have the knowledge about just what the Chosen do and mean in the setting. That's like saying, 'Sure, you could take this variable out of this equation and it would make no difference!' To someone who doesn't know calculus, of course it wouldn't.
Not quite. Not knowing 20 years or more of lore hardly equates to a lack of understanding about the Chosen. It’s not the fault of a majority of players and DMs that TSR portrayed the Chosen so heavily (in sourcebooks, as well as novels) as super-hero type beings.
Even so, if all DMs were Chosen experts, I still think those that elected to have the Chosen take a back seat would still do so.
The Chosen of Mystra are simply not integral to game play. They’re far more integral as moderately marketed aspects (read: they help sell novels, and don’t inhibit sourcebook sales if they’re kept in check) of the product line, and to the setting as major functionaries for the most powerful divine being of the setting.
Remember, a major theme of Third Edition FR is that “Faerûn needs its heroes”.
As an aside, I believe that DMs who eliminate Chosen from their games aren’t always the same sort of DMs that don’t know much about the Chosen at all and so don’t care if Chosen get knocked off by some novel author.
In that light, it’d be cool if WotC did another survey on par with the one they did after the death of TSR, just to see where fan’s tastes are at after what, 6-7 years?
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
So who's stopping the Twisted Rune or the Red Wizards or the Cult of the Dragon while the PCs are still low level?
The PCs, of course. One does not need to be high level to thwart the aims of such organizations.
From another perspective, to the extent that it effects a DMs campaign the above question isn’t even relevant at low levels. At higher levels, it’s only relevant if a player (out of character) dares to wonder aloud about such things --based on his own assumptions of what the Chosen ‘should’ be doing.
In play, the DM may opt to ‘mend’ such misguided worries by introducing/showing the activities of the Harpers, the Moonstars, the faithful of any number of goodly/neutral gods (whether clerics or not), the actions of loyal Purple Dragons (if in Cormyr), etc...or even a Chosen, if that’s what it takes to make a player happy.
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Oddly enough, I never saw them as that.
Not really odd. You’re educated about things Faerûnian, after all.
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
How?
That’s a Zen-like question. The best answer, I think, is a Zen-like response.
To wit: Something happened.
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
It won't last for long, because Mystra has to make up that power elsewhere, by AO's decree.
Dangerous to assume, methinks. Who’s to say Mystra got her power back when Khelben sacrificed himself? Perhaps Mystra is weakened by the loss, and vulnerable.
Good thing we have all these Player Characters around to take up the slack.
:p
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 31 Jul 2006 08:32:41 |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 08:27:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
What I would like is a little more recognition of older plots and events, carried through into the 3e... with a nod toward those of us who've been with the FR since 1987.
Careful, Sage.
With utmost respect, you (more precisely: you, me and all "those of us who've been with the FR since 1987") don't matter, much less deserve a nod.
I too would like to see old stuff dredged up, but not for my benefit. If it benefited the setting, I'm all for it. If not, don't print it and waste money, I say.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 31 Jul 2006 08:59:34 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 09:04:44
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quote:
I don’t think the usage is offensive. I also don’t think such technically ignorant opinions are invalid either.
I do. Heh.
quote:
Not quite. Not knowing 20 years or more of lore hardly equates to a lack of understanding about the Chosen. It’s not the fault of a majority of players and DMs that TSR portrayed the Chosen so heavily (in sourcebooks, as well as novels) as super-hero type beings.
I don't feel they were portrayed that way, either. But perhaps I'm reading different books?
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Even so, if all DMs were Chosen experts, I still think those that elected to have the Chosen take a back seat would still do so.
I doubt that.
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The Chosen of Mystra are simply not integral to game play. They’re far more integral as moderately marketed aspects (read: they help sell novels, and don’t inhibit sourcebook sales if they’re kept in check) of the product line, and to the setting as major functionaries for the most powerful divine being of the setting.
They're not integral to game play, no. But if we took out everything that was 'not integral to game play' we'd have a very barren world. The reason why people choose campaign settings is because they have more than the bare basics.
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Remember, a major theme of Third Edition FR is that “Faerûn needs its heroes”.
It does. Lots of them, from levels 1 to 35, because there's a heck of a lot of bad guys out there, doing things ALL the time.
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As an aside, I believe that DMs who eliminate Chosen from their games aren’t always the same sort of DMs that don’t know much about the Chosen at all and so don’t care if Chosen get knocked off by some novel author.
Why?
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In that light, it’d be cool if WotC did another survey on par with the one they did after the death of TSR, just to see where fan’s tastes are at after what, 6-7 years?
I suspect the majority of people would agree with what you're saying. However, it's been proven multiple times in history that popularity does not necessarily mean good taste (nor does it mean bad taste - it's all subjective).
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The PCs, of course. One does not need to be high level to thwart the aims of such organizations.
So what do you do when Rhangaun, Shaggralar, and Priamon all decide to put an end to the meddling PCs, while the Red Wizards of Thay are summoning a demon lord, and the Zhentarim are launching major assaults on every port in the Moonsea?
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From another perspective, to the extent that it effects a DMs campaign the above question isn’t even relevant at low levels. At higher levels, it’s only relevant if a player (out of character) dares to wonder aloud about such things --based on his own assumptions of what the Chosen ‘should’ be doing.
Just because something doesn't directly affect a campaign doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
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In play, the DM may opt to ‘mend’ such misguided worries by introducing/showing the activities of the Harpers, the Moonstars, the faithful of any number of goodly/neutral gods (whether clerics or not), the actions of loyal Purple Dragons (if in Cormyr), etc...or even a Chosen, if that’s what it takes to make a player happy.
Why do you think it's all about making the player happy? What about the DM being happy in the status quo of the world?
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Not really odd. You’re educated about things Faerûnian, after all.
Even if I only knew a fraction about the Chosen that I currently do, I wouldn't feel that way.
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That’s a Zen-like question. The best answer, I think, is a Zen-like response.
To wit: Something happened.
Things happen all of the time in Faerun, everywhere. No need for them to always be RSE's.
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Dangerous to assume, methinks. Who’s to say Mystra got her power back when Khelben sacrificed himself? Perhaps Mystra is weakened by the loss, and vulnerable.
Because her 'limit' is constantly refilling, due to how often magic is used in Faerun, and every time it does, she needs to pour it into more Chosen. Which is why she has so many.
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Good thing we have all these Player Characters around to take up the slack.
So are we to assume that a single campaign's player characters are simultaneously halting the hands of NPCs with CRs twice as old as they are across the whole continent?
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Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 31 Jul 2006 09:06:17 |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 09:55:24
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Why?
Because they simply don’t matter to the game or game play.
Does a DM need to introduce a The Blackstaff to the game in order to help a player make an attack roll against the High Priest of Loviatar in Waterdeep who’s bent on flailing said PC alive in some blind alley near the Sea Ward?
No.
Beyond basic game play activities, I think there are many DMs who find the Chosen to be a bore, to be spotlight-hogs, and/or to be impediments to telling the kind of stories that free and independent DMs want to tell in their Realms campaigns.
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Originally posted by GothicDan
So what do you do when Rhangaun, Shaggralar, and Priamon all decide to put an end to the meddling PCs, while the Red Wizards of Thay are summoning a demon lord, and the Zhentarim are launching major assaults on every port in the Moonsea?
Fire the DM who stupidly opted to make such things happen to his players in his campaign.
I think the idea you’re getting at is that there’s lots going on ‘beyond’ the abilities of PCs at certain levels to deal with, and that the Chosen handle some or most of these ‘in the background’. This is true, to a degree.
But the point is that DMs simply don’t have to worry about the ‘burning question’ of who’s handling everything else that the PCs aren’t handling. DMs aren’t required and simply don’t need to care whether it was Storm of the Chosen, Szass Tam repaying a favor to Manshoon Clone or a spiteful Semmemon and Ashemi who unleashed a killing storm that sunk the Zhent fleet before it could sack every major city along the Moonsea coast....unless that’s part of the campaign.
Forget about the Chosen, and the campaign will still be there the next day.
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Originally posted by GothicDan
Just because something doesn't directly affect a campaign doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
Hardly. What went on in some novel or sourcebook is immaterial to a campaign. When or if a DM opts to use such material is the exact point at which something can be said to ‘have happened’ or not.
Playing in the Realms involves many default assumptions. The existence of the Chosen is one of them.
Wither or what the Chosen do, is not.
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Originally posted by GothicDan
Why do you think it's all about making the player happy? What about the DM being happy in the status quo of the world?
Why do you think DMs portraying an immersive status quo of the world is more important than playing a fun campaign set in the Forgotten Realms?
To provide perspective: I like using the Chosen in my campaign. I like it that my players dislike the Blackstaff for the most part, both in and out of character! He’s a jerk and a thief to most of them. I like Qilue’s (sorry, wrong spelling I’m sure) presence as a spiritual guide for the Drow PCs in my campaign.
But, they’re all just that: Background players I’ve chosen (heh heh) to add depth and flavor to my game, to the benefit of my players (and ultimately, to my benefit, since providing a good Realms campaign is what makes me as a DM a happy camper).
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Originally posted by GothicDan
Things happen all of the time in Faerun, everywhere. No need for them to always be RSE's.
You misuse the term. The events of the novel Blackstaff don’t qualify as an RSE.
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Originally posted by GothicDan
Because her 'limit' is constantly refilling, due to how often magic is used in Faerun, and every time it does, she needs to pour it into more Chosen. Which is why she has so many.
In time methinks Mystra will recoup the loss of her power spent by the Blackstaff in his sacrifice....but how long till then? Not as soon as you’d have it, I think. We’ll have to agree to disagree here.
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Originally posted by GothicDan
So are we to assume that a single campaign's player characters are simultaneously halting the hands of NPCs with CRs twice as old as they are across the whole continent?
All sorts of NPCs and organizations ‘check’ each other in the Realms. Player characters play the fun part of tipping the scales for good or ill.
Conversely, if a DM wants to run a campaign where the scales have tipped precariously in favor of ‘evil’ (say word gets out of the Blackstaff’s demise and chaos ensues in Waterdeep), then PCs get to act to try to re-balance things (which would mean the answer to your question -so far as it relates to a given campaign- is ‘yes’).
In closing: I recognize the function of the Chosen. Many other DMs do as well. Perhaps just as many or more don’t.
It is not necessary for Dungeon Masters to consider, much less introduce, the Chosen and their functions in the game world during play in order to run a successful, lore filled, memorable and fun Forgotten Realms campaign.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 10:54:42
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I suppose this is simply a difference in mindset.
To me, a living, breathing, changing world means that there is a lot happening, whether or not the PCs are there to witness it or experience it. I do not see Faerun only changing in a great swath around an adventuring party as it moves throughout the Realms.
It lives.
That means that Epic level NPCs are going to plot a thousand miles away from the PCs. To assume otherwise is highly unrealistic. And I, personally, like the setting for that reason. I find it 'fun,' if you will. :)
I'm analyzing the setting. Not a campaign set in it. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 31 Jul 2006 10:56:01 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 11:20:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
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Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo For a reasonable amount of development to occur, skipping ahead a decade or two is not absurd. I mean, just look at the past 5 years in FR, how many things have occur?
You develop characters organically by writing about them over time, not by arbitrarily skipping ahead on the timeline.
Agreed. The passage of time is necessary for character development, but there's no reason that the passage of time has to occur in big chunks for anything to happen. All that does is leave gaps that need to be filled in. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 11:23:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
One could go on at length over how different and/or unique each of Mystra's Chosen is in comparison to any other....but OTOH the vast majority of folks haven’t read 20 years of material, and so don't see the Chosen for what we know them to be.
This also puts perspective on the notion that the Chosen are 'integral to the game' in some way. For most campaigns eliminating the Chosen or simply ignoring them outright is the first order of business, with their absence having exactly zero negative impact on such campaigns as a result.
On the contrary, removing them ensures Player Characters get to step into their rightful place as adversaries of whatever threat faces Faerûn.
From a setting perspective, I think Schend was wise to spend (so to speak) a Chosen of Mystra, because we get to see them doing more than just playing at being all-powerful save the day super heroes in fantasy form.
We now see that some Chosen are fated (a cynic might say doomed). We see they can’t last forever. We see them as totally committed hands of the divinity they serve, and so we see the hand of said divinity at work in the Realms...which in turn keeps the setting alive and moving forward.
It’s good for the setting, methinks, that their number are lessened.
J. Grenemyer
All we really need is for people to quit focusing on them. The Chosen were never meant to be more than background characters. They were intended to give advice and the occasional bit of support to the PCs, not supplant them.
And really, you don't need to read 20 years of material to get that. Ed's been saying it here since day 1, and his own material usually puts them in smaller roles, not in larger, PC-appropriate roles. It's other writers who tend to do that. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 11:31:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
Beyond basic game play activities, I think there are many DMs who find the Chosen to be a bore, to be spotlight-hogs, and/or to be impediments to telling the kind of stories that free and independent DMs want to tell in their Realms campaigns.
That's fine. They don't have to use them. But I would suggest that someone take these DMs aside and explain to them how the Chosen were intended to be used. Those DMs are looking at collections of numbers and abilities -- they're not looking at the true purpose of the Chosen. In other words, they're just not getting a part of the setting.
If you want to say they get too much spotlight, take a good serious look at how much spotlight they actually take. Other than the end of the RotA or when Bane attacked Shadowdale, do we really see the Chosen acting in RSEs? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 11:35:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
What I would like is a little more recognition of older plots and events, carried through into the 3e... with a nod toward those of us who've been with the FR since 1987.
Ditto that! In a way, the infliction of 3E on the Realms was a giant reset button. They used that to simply stop a number of past plots, and to say "okay, these are the only things we're moving forward with." It's a known fact that I mourn the way the Harper Schism and the Manshoon Wars were handled. |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 13:32:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
What I would like is a little more recognition of older plots and events, carried through into the 3e... with a nod toward those of us who've been with the FR since 1987.
Ditto that! In a way, the infliction of 3E on the Realms was a giant reset button. They used that to simply stop a number of past plots, and to say "okay, these are the only things we're moving forward with." It's a known fact that I mourn the way the Harper Schism and the Manshoon Wars were handled.
Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but BLACKSTAFF is all about a number of plot threads that have been dangling in the breezes since 1991ish or so. That's when Ed & I first discussed the sharn and what they really were behind the scenes. The novel also handles followups to at least five other, older products and plotlines I'd left behind more than ten years back.
There's quite a few grace notes in the novel that were put in specifically to reward the older fans from 1987 on (and hopefully they weren't enough to trip up newer readers).
I just don't know if that's the sort of thing that'll be good in the long run, other than to show that we're paying attention to the nuggets we left to lie fallow for ourselves or other designers. (After all, look at what Eric & Ed did to my monstrous invasion in Amn--a very good job indeed.)
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 14:11:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
What I would like is a little more recognition of older plots and events, carried through into the 3e... with a nod toward those of us who've been with the FR since 1987.
Ditto that! In a way, the infliction of 3E on the Realms was a giant reset button. They used that to simply stop a number of past plots, and to say "okay, these are the only things we're moving forward with." It's a known fact that I mourn the way the Harper Schism and the Manshoon Wars were handled.
We mourn, you mean. 
Not a week goes by that I don't find some way to express my frustration over the fact that the Manshoon Wars were never fully explored after Cloak & Dagger.
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Blackstaff *big spoiler*
Topic Locked
