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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 14:27:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
What I would like is a little more recognition of older plots and events, carried through into the 3e... with a nod toward those of us who've been with the FR since 1987.
Ditto that! In a way, the infliction of 3E on the Realms was a giant reset button. They used that to simply stop a number of past plots, and to say "okay, these are the only things we're moving forward with." It's a known fact that I mourn the way the Harper Schism and the Manshoon Wars were handled.
Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but BLACKSTAFF is all about a number of plot threads that have been dangling in the breezes since 1991ish or so. That's when Ed & I first discussed the sharn and what they really were behind the scenes. The novel also handles followups to at least five other, older products and plotlines I'd left behind more than ten years back.
There's quite a few grace notes in the novel that were put in specifically to reward the older fans from 1987 on (and hopefully they weren't enough to trip up newer readers).
I just don't know if that's the sort of thing that'll be good in the long run, other than to show that we're paying attention to the nuggets we left to lie fallow for ourselves or other designers. (After all, look at what Eric & Ed did to my monstrous invasion in Amn--a very good job indeed.)
Steven
I am the personification of Ultimate Joy! 
'Nuff said.
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 17:42:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
and frankly? The Chosen are boring. They're constantly overpowered, trite and cliche with little if anything to their names with personalities that can be replicated ad nauseum with little difference from male to male or female to female.
You mean, besides the near 20 years of published lore and source material that relates to the individual Chosen of Mystra and their places in the Realms? Not to mention all the years of unpublished material on the Chosen that Ed's got in basement...
quote:
Because they've stagnated far too long and whenever most of them are around, they make things so much less fun.
Stagnated? The Chosen are supposed to be characters that have little true impact on the daily life of the Realms. Where they really come into play is in the background -- supporting the essence of the setting itself and handling tasks and combating terrors that no regular character can ever fully conceive.
The Chosen of Mystra aren't characters that grow and develop in the ways that non-Chosen characters do. They grow and develop in ways that are supposed to be different, and that relate to the setting, its tales and the gods themselves. That's what makes them important and that's what makes them integral to the fabric of FR. They're not stagnate characters... they're characters that have reached a level of power and ability that promotes a new kind of character growth, relating more to the expansion of their power, ability and position within the Realms.
quote:
Why weed out the ranks of other Chosen? Can you even think of any others off the top of your head? I can think of...Cadderly. Fzoul. Lady Penitent..any others? I had to think for two of those.
Sure.
A weeding out of any of these would suit me fine...
Bane
Fzoul Chembryl
Cyric
Malik el Sami yn Nasser
Deneir
Cadderly Bonaduce
Pertelope (deceased)
Eilistraee
Qilue Veladorn
Eldath
Ashenford Torinbow
Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers
Shinthala Deepcrest
Gilgleam
Shuruppak (ExChosen since Gilgleam's death)
Mask
Kesson Rel
Avner of Hartsvale
Erevis Cale
Drasek Riven
Mielikki
Jeryth Phaulkon
Ashenford Torinbow
Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers
Shinthala Deepcrest
Oghma
Sephris Dwendon
Shar
Underdark said she has one, but name and race wasn't given.
Silvanus
Ashenford Torinbow
Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers
Shinthala Deepcrest
Talona
The Rotting man (Unapproachable East)
Ubtao
Alisandra Rayburton
Dhlamass Rayburton
Ras Ni
Fipya
Kwalu
Mainu
Ossaw I
Umberlee
Slarkrathel
Malar
Anth-Malar
Lolth
Liriel Baenre (possibly but might be a ExChosen)
Halisstra Melarn, the Lady Penitent
Merrshaulk/Sseth
Pil'it'ith (ExChosen)
Sehanine Moonbow
Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep
Labelas Enoreth
Vartan Hai Sylver
The Seldarine (elven pantheon)
Queen Amlaruil of Evermeet
Ilyrana
With the possible exceptions of Mask's Chosen and Amlaruil- who, unlike the Mystra chosen- are presented as real, true characters, how many of those are possibly accesible whatsoever? How many have had a sliver of the publicity the Mystra Chosen have? Is it any coincidence, that I could take Erevis Cale and in two chapters, he presents himself as much more human and a better character than any of Mystra's Chosen?
And saying 'oh, they're not characters that way'....that's a copout. Maybe they should actually be presented as that rather than featuring in their own novels, getting starring roles constantly, getting their own viewpoints...this makes them characters and it's silly that the Realms and even the pantheons can change and the Chosen do not.
I reiterate: about time of one of those author's darlings bit the big one. Oh, and for the record, most of them have about one character trait to differentiate them...Alsassra's angry...but seductive. Dove's tough....but seductive. Alustriel's flirty and shining...and seductive. Sylune's ghosty...and seductive! Qilue's....just there. Laeral's married, that's really all that differentiates her. Storm? Well, she's a ranger and a bard. And seductive, too. Can't forget seductive. |
Edited by - Ethriel on 31 Jul 2006 17:49:34 |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 17:51:07
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
To me, a living, breathing, changing world means that there is a lot happening, whether or not the PCs are there to witness it or experience it. I do not see Faerûn only changing in a great swath around an adventuring party as it moves throughout the Realms.
I think perhaps you misunderstand. I see and envision Faerûn in the same manner, when I think about it outside my campaign.
I also think of it this way (and try to show such ‘living/breathing’ elements to my players in lots of different ways) when I run my campaign.
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
That means that Epic level NPCs are going to plot a thousand miles away from the PCs. To assume otherwise is highly unrealistic. And I, personally, like the setting for that reason. I find it 'fun,' if you will. :)
Again, you misunderstand. There’s a big (no, huge) difference between assuming high-powered NPCs aren’t doing anything and realizing a DM doesn’t need to burn precious campaign-management time pondering what high powered NPCs are doing.
DMs aren’t doing the former when they’re doing the later. ;)
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I'm analyzing the setting. Not a campaign set in it.
I prefer an accurate meta-view, which accepts that the Realms exist as much as a backdrop for campaigns as for fiction set in it.
To me thinking of the Realms as just a setting in the manner you describe is like seeing the Realms with one eye shut.
In my opinion Khelben’s death (more accurately: sacrifice) is a good thing for the meta- setting because it shows Chosen aren’t invulnerable setting contrivances meant to always outshine player characters and all other NPC fictional characters introduced in novels.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 18:04:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
With the possible exceptions of Mask's Chosen and Amlaruil- who, unlike the Mystra chosen- are presented as real, true characters, how many of those are possibly accesible whatsoever? How many have had a sliver of the publicity the Mystra Chosen have? Is it any coincidence, that I could take Erevis Cale and in two chapters, he presents himself as much more human and a better character than any of Mystra's Chosen?
They seem accessible to me. And publicity? Have you not seen the repeated mentions on these forums that state that Chosen were what Ed was asked to write about -- not what he chose to write about, what he had to write about if he wanted to get paid. And why was this? Oh, because people wanted to read about them. Go figure. Ed wants to make a living, and TSR/WotC wants to sell books.
And you're overlooking a couple of major differences with Cale and Mystra's Chosen. One, Cale is not a Chosen in the same sense as Mystra's Chosen. He's a divine champion, sure, but he's not carrying part of his deity's essence within himself. And he is human -- not an immortal being that's being around for a thousand years. You try sticking around for that long and see if you're not affected by seeing nations rise and fall and the grandchildren of cherished lovers dieing of old age.
quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
And saying 'oh, they're not characters that way'....that's a copout. Maybe they should actually be presented as that rather than featuring in their own novels, getting starring roles constantly, getting their own viewpoints...this makes them characters and it's silly that the Realms and even the pantheons can change and the Chosen do not.
See above. It's not a copout to point out that you're not looking at them the right way, or that numerous people, including the author himself, have said that the constant demand for Chosen material has given people an incorrect perspective of them.
quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
I reiterate: about time of one of those author's darlings bit the big one. Oh, and for the record, most of them have about one character trait to differentiate them...Alsassra's angry...but seductive. Dove's tough....but seductive. Alustriel's flirty and shining...and seductive. Sylune's ghosty...and seductive! Qilue's....just there. Laeral's married, that's really all that differentiates her. Storm? Well, she's a ranger and a bard. And seductive, too. Can't forget seductive.
Wow, sisters that share personality traits? Gosh, how inconceivable is that! Have you even read these characters, or did you just glance at them once and form your opinion? I'm no fan of Ed's fiction, but even I know there's more that differentiates the Seven Sisters.
As for them being "author's darlings", I'll let the Hooded One answer that:
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ed does want to stress that the opinion sometimes expressed on these forums (that Mystra and her Chosen are his "personal favourites," and are Mary-Sues because of that) is wrong. The focus on these Realms characters has been created and nurtured by TSR and WotC editors, in the same way that gamers (and other Realms writers) continue to be fascinated by matters godly. Ed is just as much of a "fan" of Shar, who is also his creation.
(snip)
love,
THO
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 18:12:03
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Calling Mystras chosen authors darlings is in all politeness wrong; publishers darlings would be better as the over use of the chosen have much to do with the demands of these.
They were never meant to be any kind of super heroes and if you read the Seven sisters supplement, I think you will find them quite different from each other. As to the other chosen, most of these are more or less a result of the "all gods should have chosen for balance" thinking and have played no real part in the realms.
As for the realms changing, the pantheon changing, but not the chosen; thank God we have some constants. The problem is more the changes than the Chosen. The chosen do not bore me as much as the carpet bombing of the realms that we have seen lately. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 18:45:36
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Ethriel,
I repeat, for you to keep claiming what you are claiming, shows us how ignorant you are. Maybe you need to do some more research and read more about these characters before you keep claiming what you keep claiming. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 19:42:56
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Just my two cents:
1. I liked the Shadovar, and I did not think of them as an anti-chosen of Mystra when I read the RotA novels. I was on the edge of my seat. Who are these mysterious sorcerers of past centuries!? Plus shadow magic adds some really cool possibilities for games. Yeah, there needs to be more development on each shadovar prince (especially Hardhune) but I like the possibilities.
2. I like the chosen of Mystra. They are my comfort place. When I read about them I feel like I am reading a letter from a long lost friend. (Maybe that is a little too goofy but hey!)
3. I am fortunate enough to be going backwards in my Realms history. I am looking at old stuff and updating it for my games. That says something doesn't it? 
4. The new books are fine and I don't care what happens as long as Greenwood gives it the nod. Its his Realm to guide in its growth and ours to cherish.  I am thankful that FR exists b/c Dragonlance was killing me and I HATE KENDER!!!  Give me Hobbits and Halflings any day. Please don't read into that. 
5. I really can't wait to see the impact of Blackstaff to the Realms sourcebooks and future novels. Steve opened a lot of doors like he always does.  He is a Lore crafter! |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 21:09:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
With the possible exceptions of Mask's Chosen and Amlaruil- who, unlike the Mystra chosen- are presented as real, true characters, how many of those are possibly accesible whatsoever? How many have had a sliver of the publicity the Mystra Chosen have? Is it any coincidence, that I could take Erevis Cale and in two chapters, he presents himself as much more human and a better character than any of Mystra's Chosen?
They seem accessible to me. And publicity? Have you not seen the repeated mentions on these forums that state that Chosen were what Ed was asked to write about -- not what he chose to write about, what he had to write about if he wanted to get paid. And why was this? Oh, because people wanted to read about them. Go figure. Ed wants to make a living, and TSR/WotC wants to sell books.
And you're overlooking a couple of major differences with Cale and Mystra's Chosen. One, Cale is not a Chosen in the same sense as Mystra's Chosen. He's a divine champion, sure, but he's not carrying part of his deity's essence within himself. And he is human -- not an immortal being that's being around for a thousand years. You try sticking around for that long and see if you're not affected by seeing nations rise and fall and the grandchildren of cherished lovers dieing of old age.
quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
And saying 'oh, they're not characters that way'....that's a copout. Maybe they should actually be presented as that rather than featuring in their own novels, getting starring roles constantly, getting their own viewpoints...this makes them characters and it's silly that the Realms and even the pantheons can change and the Chosen do not.
See above. It's not a copout to point out that you're not looking at them the right way, or that numerous people, including the author himself, have said that the constant demand for Chosen material has given people an incorrect perspective of them.
quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
I reiterate: about time of one of those author's darlings bit the big one. Oh, and for the record, most of them have about one character trait to differentiate them...Alsassra's angry...but seductive. Dove's tough....but seductive. Alustriel's flirty and shining...and seductive. Sylune's ghosty...and seductive! Qilue's....just there. Laeral's married, that's really all that differentiates her. Storm? Well, she's a ranger and a bard. And seductive, too. Can't forget seductive.
Wow, sisters that share personality traits? Gosh, how inconceivable is that! Have you even read these characters, or did you just glance at them once and form your opinion? I'm no fan of Ed's fiction, but even I know there's more that differentiates the Seven Sisters.
As for them being "author's darlings", I'll let the Hooded One answer that:
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ed does want to stress that the opinion sometimes expressed on these forums (that Mystra and her Chosen are his "personal favourites," and are Mary-Sues because of that) is wrong. The focus on these Realms characters has been created and nurtured by TSR and WotC editors, in the same way that gamers (and other Realms writers) continue to be fascinated by matters godly. Ed is just as much of a "fan" of Shar, who is also his creation.
(snip)
love,
THO
Really now? Ask an average FR reader who he knows more about: Shurpurrak or Alustriel. And I really doubt TSR sat over Ed's shoulder with a gun to his head correcting every little word...no matter what they told him to write, who designed the characters and wrote what they do? Writing style plays a large role.
More accesible? Who're the stars of their own books, the Mystra Chosen of the Umberlee Chosen?
And now it's 'point fingers at TOR, and not the guy who created the Realms and the Chosens' place in them'...did TSR make Ed paste the same personality traits, descriptions and the like over and over again?
Yeah, saying "You don't like them, look at them harder, you're just ignorant!"
Really tolerant of differing opinions. Deviating from big, bad TSR, I haven't heard one good defense of the Chosen as characters. And once more, each of the sisters have one personality trait...almost every last one is smiley, giggly and seductive with an attraction to old and/or hairy men.
Great, Shar pretty much played second fiddle to the Chosen in Spellfire, when Ed had a chance to expand on her. The Erevis Cale books focused on Cale heavily...didn't mean we didn't travel to Vhostym and Azriim and the others. And unlike the Mystra chosen, I can be shown even a vague outline of character traits for, say, Mask's Chosen and be able to assign a character name. I really doubt that'd be a case between the Seven Sisters, personally.
Blackstaff's central focus was Khelben...we still got to know Frostrune, Tsarra and Raegar.
And one shouldn't need to know about company politics and intimate gaming knowledge to form an opinion based on characters presented in novels. Where was the 'the company made him' when Salvatore, Baker or any others are raked across the coals? |
Edited by - Ethriel on 31 Jul 2006 21:12:22 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 21:36:18
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quote:
Really now? Ask an average FR reader who he knows more about: Shurpurrak or Alustriel. And I really doubt TSR sat over Ed's shoulder with a gun to his head correcting every little word...no matter what they told him to write, who designed the characters and wrote what they do? Writing style plays a large role.
Do you know anything about the editing process?
quote:
More accesible? Who're the stars of their own books, the Mystra Chosen of the Umberlee Chosen?
And now it's 'point fingers at TOR, and not the guy who created the Realms and the Chosens' place in them'...did TSR make Ed paste the same personality traits, descriptions and the like over and over again?
That's really interesting. I've always felt that the Chosen all had distinct personalities. Enough similarities show that they were sisters, raised together for the most part, and have regular interaction, but not so dissimilar to make it contrived that they are sisters in the first place.
quote:
Really tolerant of differing opinions. Deviating from big, bad TSR, I haven't heard one good defense of the Chosen as characters.
And you've yet to make a "good offense" of the Chosen as characters.
quote:
And once more, each of the sisters have one personality trait...almost every last one is smiley, giggly and seductive with an attraction to old and/or hairy men.
Yes, because that defines the Simbul perfectly. She isn't near-insane with paranoia against the Red Wizards constantly trying to destroy her people; she hasn't been driven to the limits of mentality and physical exhaustion to master magic that none of her sisters can fathom.
Why, Alustriel and the Simbul are practically the same person! Disregarding the fact that Alustriel is soft-spoken, calmer in demeanor, less driven to destroy and more driven to build and create peace, and hasn't, as far as I know, slept with Elminster.
quote:
And one shouldn't need to know about company politics and intimate gaming knowledge to form an opinion based on characters presented in novels.
And one "shouldn't have" to know the basics of nuclear physics to be able to intelligently discuss the benefits and drawbacks of nuclear power, but that's the way it is.
quote:
Where was the 'the company made him' when Salvatore, Baker or any others are raked across the coals?
Yes, because TSR didn't ask Salvatore to write more Drizzt books. WotC's policies are not the same as TSR's. Your ignorance is truly astounding. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 22:42:16
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As a matter of fact, I do know about the editing process. editors don't press guns to the heads of the authors.
Oh, yes and the Simbul's half insane with rage...which is why she turns into a clone of her sisters whenever she goes 'sweetie' on someone. Like I said: one character trait and when you have one character trait that sets you apart from your sisters? And didn't THO once mention the Simbul's little adventures with a red wizard who seduced her?
And TSR was managing Ed when he wrote Silverfire? Once again: If we can blame the big bad company, where is this defense for other authors that're raked over the coals? Especially since THO said WOTC is responsible for the same?
Oh, and the logistics of nuclear power is so alike making judgements about characters in fictional settings.
But I concede, I get the message: You dislike something, keep it to yourself. Nothing more negative about Ed's works from me, no sir!
And fine 'publisher's darlings'. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 23:24:12
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| I think this thread has gone far enough. It's locked. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 31 Jul 2006 23:24:51 |
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Blackstaff *big spoiler*
Topic Locked
