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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jul 2006 : 19:23:09
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What do you think of Khelben's death? I'd say it's about time for a chosen to be removed from FR forever.
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2006 : 21:05:31
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You can discuss that topic at the FR Book Club  |
Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2006 : 23:39:15
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quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
What do you think of Khelben's death? I'd say it's about time for a chosen to be removed from FR forever.
I can't say I feel quite the same way. However, I've accepted the outcome of the story (sad as it is for me--I love the character), and at least Khelben left the Realms in a manner that was fitting for him. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 00:12:25
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| And in fantasy, there's NEVER such a thing as "forever dead." |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 00:51:19
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
And in fantasy, there's NEVER such a thing as "forever dead."
I agree, but the book makes it clear that:
1) Khelben was ready to go and rest his soul.
2) Bringing back Khelben would undo all the effects of the ritual.
Of course, it's possible that there IS in fact a way to bring back Khelben without harming the new city, but we don't know about it yet, and I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for Khelben's return. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 01:02:49
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| That does sound like a proper death, if you ask me. I really have to muster the attention to finish this book.. It's good, but my ADHD is like Woah! *laughs* |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 01:09:34
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
That does sound like a proper death, if you ask me. I really have to muster the attention to finish this book.. It's good, but my ADHD is like Woah! *laughs*
Finish the book--the ending scenes are pretty awesome. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 03:45:37
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quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
I'd say it's about time for a chosen to be removed from FR forever.
Why? What's wronging with the Chosen being around for a while?
Khelben was my favorite Chosen. If I had to pick a Chosen to die, it certainly wouldn't be him. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 04:48:09
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I see no reason to remove one of the original chosen, but each to his own.
I must admit that I have not read the book yet, but I think Khelben will stay alive in my private campaign for a long time, no matter what his status in canon is. When it comes to him dying in the novel, its alright by me if central characters die as long as the surrounding story is good and there is a point to the death out over the usual shaking up the realms. With Steven steering this ship, I am not to worried over this one. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 05:23:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
When it comes to him dying in the novel, its alright by me if central characters die as long as the surrounding story is good and there is a point to the death out over the usual shaking up the realms.
In this case, there is--trust me. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 08:02:13
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| I think it is probably a good time for the realms to skip ahead a few decades for the new characters and events to develop... |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 08:03:46
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quote:
I think it is probably a good time for the realms to skip ahead a few decades for the new characters and events to develop...
That's what the PCs are for. The PCs don't get published in novels. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 08:58:21
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quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
I think it is probably a good time for the realms to skip ahead a few decades for the new characters and events to develop...
Haven't we had enough of an influx of "new characters new characters new characters" for a while? WotC is already under the impression that revisiting old characters is a bad idea (hence the godawful, long delay until EC was asked to do the final S&S book). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 15:04:15
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quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
I think it is probably a good time for the realms to skip ahead a few decades for the new characters and events to develop...
But the timeline is moving forward, already... I think it's easier to change things as the timeline progresses at a steady rate, rather than make a big jump and then try to fill in the blank spots. I know that the BattleTech people decided to do that jump ahead a few decades thing, and it's been one of the most controversial things I've ever seen in a fantasy/sci-fi setting. Han or Greedo shooting first doesn't compare, the Great Tree/Great Wheel doesn't compare -- some people truly hate what was done to the setting (I'm one of them, because, thus far, their attempts to explain the events of the gap haven't made sense to me). On the BTech forum I'm active on, it's such a sensitive topic that discussion of it is basically forbidden.
And with the Chosen being immortal, moving the timeline up a few decades won't have much effect. For folks that have been around for a thousand years, a few decades is like a few months to you or I. It's like that elf in that short story -- "We've only been gone 70 years! How could this place already be trashed?"
We are already getting new characters and events on a regular basis... What advantage do you see to skipping ahead in the timeline? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 15:07:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
I think it is probably a good time for the realms to skip ahead a few decades for the new characters and events to develop...
Haven't we had enough of an influx of "new characters new characters new characters" for a while? WotC is already under the impression that revisiting old characters is a bad idea (hence the godawful, long delay until EC was asked to do the final S&S book).
You know I agree with you. While I am all in favor of introducing new characters, and thus keeping things moving, I also think it's a good idea to revisit some older, favored characters. They can't seem to get enough of Drizzt; why now share some of that love for other characters, such as Alias, Giogi, Matteo, Tzigone, Arilyn, Danilo, Liriel, Artus Cimber, etc? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 15:33:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We are already getting new characters and events on a regular basis... What advantage do you see to skipping ahead in the timeline?
Indeed.
As you noted with the CBT timeline jumping ahead nearly 70 years... it leaves a lot of space in between the "current" setting and that of the future material -- it's simply too much time between what we know now and what we know *will* be coming. And that's the problem.
It'd likely be the same for the Realms. Taking events and threads at play in the setting now and expanding upon them, presenting a future interpretation of how those events played out. The problem is, not every Realms fan may like knowing what's already to come from threads just presented in the current Realms now. With the beginning and the end of the story, what point is there for the middle? Where's the fun with watching those threads develop and grow and presenting an ending or resolution you may or may not have properly expected. That's the danger that comes with jumping ahead in the timeline of a setting. Classic BattleTech is experiencing that now, and that's a sci-fi setting where discovery isn't such a big factor. The Forgotten Realms however, being a fantasy-driven setting, is a world of discovery and adventure. Part of the fun of campaigning in the Realms, I think, is never knowing all about what's coming next, or where the hundreds and hundreds of plots and subplots may end up.
I'm along for the ride. Not just the beginning and the end. But the middle as well -- that's really where the Realms becomes a place of magic and adventure -- in the story itself.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - The Sage on 30 Jul 2006 15:42:43 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 15:40:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
I think it is probably a good time for the realms to skip ahead a few decades for the new characters and events to develop...
Haven't we had enough of an influx of "new characters new characters new characters" for a while? WotC is already under the impression that revisiting old characters is a bad idea (hence the godawful, long delay until EC was asked to do the final S&S book).
I'd love a degree of focus on some of the more older and well established characters... that've long been the mainstay of Realms fiction.
I like the introduction of new characters, and I also like that some of the new characters are becoming mainstays themselves -- but the price for these introductions shouldn't be denying tales about older characters as well.
I think that's partly the reason why Swords of Eveningstar is so highly anticipated. Yes, we've read only a tiny bit on the Knights themselves, but still, they're *old* characters -- they've had a place in the published Realms since the beginning (and longer, as we know, in Ed's home Realms campaign). And there a great many fans clamoring for just that little bit more about them. I know, because I'm one of them. They're old characters, but at the same time, they're new as well.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 15:49:07
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To be honest its probably about time the good guys took a hit
Warning the following contains spoils from other novels
The novelists have kill or almost killed off at least 3 evil power groups from Lords of Darkness
Last Mythal: Daemonfey
Year of Rogue Dragons: Cult of the Dragon (Anyone whose read the last few chapters of the Ruin know the CotD have been practically obliterated.
Maiden of Pain: House Karanok |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 21:07:44
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House Karanok hasn't been obliterated--by the end of Maiden of Pain, we still don't know for a fact what the final outcome is, anyway.
As for the comment about skipping ahead in the Realms by several decades...well, I don't like that idea, and several other people already explained why. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 21:50:06
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Yeah. The novels recently have been really about killing off evil plot hooks.
And the thing is, there's no way to kill off the main protagonist of a novel without it seeming like an utter disappointment. So, unless the protagonist is a "bad guy," we're not going to see the good guys take a major "hit." |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 22:37:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
To be honest its probably about time the good guys took a hit
Warning the following contains spoils from other novels
The novelists have kill or almost killed off at least 3 evil power groups from Lords of Darkness
Last Mythal: Daemonfey
Year of Rogue Dragons: Cult of the Dragon (Anyone whose read the last few chapters of the Ruin know the CotD have been practically obliterated.
Maiden of Pain: House Karanok
I dunno... The fey'ri really weren't a threat until then, so wiping them out doesn't seem to have been that big a deal. And the Cult may have taken a hit, but for a lot of Cultists, it was never about the dead dragons -- it was about a way to gain power. Besides, just because the Rage and Sammy are gone, that doesn't mean that no more dragons are going to want to avoid death. So the Cult is down but not out. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 22:55:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I dunno... The fey'ri really weren't a threat until then, so wiping them out doesn't seem to have been that big a deal. And the Cult may have taken a hit, but for a lot of Cultists, it was never about the dead dragons -- it was about a way to gain power. Besides, just because the Rage and Sammy are gone, that doesn't mean that no more dragons are going to want to avoid death. So the Cult is down but not out.
And remember, the death of a group's religious leader might well just serve to make him a martyr. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 23:03:47
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You also have had a few new or emerging evil power groups the last few years. The Shadovar being the most prominent.
Mkhaiwati |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 23:19:16
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quote:
You also have had a few new or emerging evil power groups the last few years. The Shadovar being the most prominent.
Who were defeated in the very same trilogy they were introduced in. Not destroyed, but certainly hindered.
And I really dislike the Shadovar. They seem like nothing more than over-inflated poster children for the Mystra/Chosen-haters. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 23:22:18
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I'm honestly happy things've been changing like that...about time a Chosen was gone. Now we have the Shadovar involved in the Twilight War, we have Richard Lee Byers' next trilogy in Thay dealing with the undead-dare I say Szass Tam?
We have Elaine Cunningham getting back to things-hopefully we'll finish that business in Tethyr and Kymil Nimesin once and for all- and we have hints of things to come with Ashemmi and Sememmon- not wholly evil? Intriuing...
Yeah, this has been one exciting year for the Realms |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 00:03:52
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quote:
Yeah, this has been one exciting year for the Realms
Exciting in a making me want to get sick kind of way....
No more RSE's, please. We want a world to play in and read in, not a constant warzone. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 00:15:24
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The Cult of the Dragon is far from obliterated. As you will see.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 00:18:26
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Cult of the Dragon is far from obliterated. As you will see.
-- George Krashos
Sounds ominous... And while a small group like the Daemonfey could be wiped out, the Cult is too long-established and widespread to be easily obliterated in my opinion. Plus the contents page from Dragons of Faerűn suggests otherwise. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 00:24:12
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The Cult of the Dragon is far from obliterated. As you will see.
-- George Krashos
That certainly wouldnt fit with the conclusion of the Ruin where the Chromatics turned on the cultists |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 00:48:44
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| Weakened, for sure, but not obliterated. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 00:52:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
I'm honestly happy things've been changing like that...about time a Chosen was gone. Now we have the Shadovar involved in the Twilight War, we have Richard Lee Byers' next trilogy in Thay dealing with the undead-dare I say Szass Tam?
We have Elaine Cunningham getting back to things-hopefully we'll finish that business in Tethyr and Kymil Nimesin once and for all- and we have hints of things to come with Ashemmi and Sememmon- not wholly evil? Intriuing...
I felt it's been obvious for a long time that Semmemon didn't have THAT many bad bones in his body ("I'd like to get my stuff back" FRCS quest, anyone?).
Also, some of the stuff you're saying is happening "now" is slated for novels that are coming out next year. Minor nitpick. I'm also with GothicDan regarding the Shadovar--they seem there to mainly to placate people who cried "Mystra/the Chosen/forces of good are too powerful!"
Finally--"exciting" is the last word I'd use to describe Last Mythal trilogy. It's more exciting if you are reading ABOUT it then if you've read it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 31 Jul 2006 00:55:15 |
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Blackstaff *big spoiler*
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