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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 05:53:08
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Or maybe only those in their own pantheon. I doubt that they managed to block the gods of other races. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 06:22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Interesting. I thought it's limited to their empire, though that alone was no small feat---their empire was huge.
The power of Imaskar was unrivaled:
quote:
Grand History of the Realms pg. 18
The Imaskar civilization came to a violent end in
2488 DR. Unbeknownst to the Imaskari, the gods of the
Mulan had finally heard their peoples prayers. Bypassing
the great planar seal, these gods sent powerful avatars
(known as manifestations) of themselves through the
empty void of space to Toril. Upon their arrival on the
peaks of Teyla Shan (the Godswatch Mountains), these
powers quickly descended into the Raurin Plateau, building
an army and fomenting rebellion as they passed. Within
tendays, most of the empires major cities had been sacked.
The final confrontation occurred on the palace steps of
Inupras between Lord Artificer Yuvaraj and the Mulan
god Horus, who emerged victorious.
and also
quote:
Grand History of the Reams pg. 26
Imaskari artificers open twin gates to another world and magically abductthousands of humans to serve as slaves. The artificers then erect a planar barrier to prevent contact between the slaves and their deities. Over time, the slaves intermarry with the Imaskari, and their descendants become a race in their own right that is later called the Mulan.
It'd be kinda weird if the gods of Eygpt, er... proto-Mulan, we barred to the borders of Imaskar.
"We caught this slave with a note from Osiris. We think the slave's pantheon is camped in the hills to the north..."
or
"Uh, My Lord, the slaves pantheon is mustered at the edge of the empire... uhm, they're throwing throwing mountains at us, sir...."
A scroll at Candlekeep has this to say:
http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/imaskar.htm
But that scroll's a little flakey, since the Book of Artifacts refers to the Scepter of the Sorcerer Kings being a Netherese artifact. (I don't own a copy of the Encylopedia Magica, but maybe a scribe who does can check to see if that tome reveals Imaskari origins for the scepter...) |
Brace Cormaeril |
Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 06 Jun 2011 06:24:00 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 07:06:32
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I think part of the problem with this current branch of the discussion, is a misinterpretation of how the planar barrier affected divine communication between the proto-Mulan and their deities outside Realmspace.
I've long maintained, for the purposes of my own campaign, that the planar barrier affected the entirety of Realmspace -- but only applied to the Mulan gods. I simply don't believe Ao would've allowed such a barrier to affect all-things-divine/non-Mulan deities. So while the barrier barred the entirety of Realmspace from the Mulan gods, it was only specifically limited to one singular pantheon.
Which, in part, is reflected by certain bits from the section for the "Mulhorandi and Untheric" pantheons in Powers and Pantheons, as follows:-
"Since the Imaskari sorcerers had created an unbreachable magical barrier between the two worlds that denied the entrance of the gods of the Mulan into Realmspace ..." [pg. 94]
and:-
"At the conclusion of the Time of Troubles, Ao dispersed the magical barrier separating the surviving gods of the Mulan from their divine essences in the Outer Planes." [pg. 96]
...
Both quoted portions, while not outright confirmation by themselves, would seem to suggest that barrier, which encompassed the entire scope of Realmspace, barred only the Mulan gods.
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 07:11:39
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| The Godswall functioned in my campaign in the same way you describe, Sage, and the sources you provided certainly seem to point in that direction. Thanks for adding your comments. |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 04:09:59
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So I was right, then. Thanks, Sage, for clearing that up.
What wonder would it be had the Imaskarans managed to block even Ao! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 06:06:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
So I was right, then. Thanks, Sage, for clearing that up.
What wonder would it be had the Imaskarans managed to block even Ao!
A more important consideration would be to wonder how, exactly, the Imaskarans could even successfully manage to block Ao?
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 06:11:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
So I was right, then. Thanks, Sage, for clearing that up.
What wonder would it be had the Imaskarans managed to block even Ao!
A more important consideration would be to wonder how, exactly, the Imaskarans could even successfully manage to block Ao?
Easy. Ao's powers and control don't reach beyond the Realmspace, while the Imaskarans could travel beyond, and therefore learn something or summon something from almost any conceivable worlds/planes of existence. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 12:45:43
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
I hadn't realized Sleyvas posted here, very nice to see him again!
But I wish this had been titled Magical Tactics 101, since that seems to be the thread's true subject. That's a worthy subject, though as a confirmed old school 1e/2e gamer, much of the discussion (outside Sleyvas' wonderful tutorial post - I'm going to copy/paste that and send it to my PBEM games for my mage players to study.) has left me behind.
I find that the nature of old school magic, at the levels my games reached (1st to 12th or so) didn't leave the players with the sort of options we find suggested here.
Indeed, in AD&D I find that spell-dueling resembles a Old West quick-draw contest more than it more than Western fencing. He who strikes fastest and hardest wins, and there are very, very few parries.
Certain spells are pretty much game changers right off the bat, such as Magic Missile, with no save and auto hit the mage who won initiative could do damage and suffer no return spell. Of course, it was a fairly easy spell to block, with a shield spell but the duelist did have to have gotten shield up first.
I always felt that given the nature of the AD&D magic system there were too few low-level 'permanent' or 'hanging' spells that the mage ould count on if attacked suddenly. Especially at low levels. armor was good but mostly against non-magic foes. Shield's duration was too short. Something like Stoneskin was better.
I might post more later on tactics, if my old school stuff is welcome here, but I do wish there was also a thread on actualy theory and spell design... in fact, I think i will start one hoping to get some more of the old breed discussing that aspect. :) Look for "Magical theory and Spell design in AD&D" :)
I wish I had time to be here more often. Prior to 12th level in 3E or earlier D&D, mage duels were exactly as you depict (he who drew first with the biggest spell won). Its not until around 6th level spells that spell dueling really becomes an option (or lower level spells ante'd up with feats to make them more viable). At that point the game for mages really changes to where they have enough spells that they can try to start tailoring themselves and their methodology for dealing with things. Some will continue to just blast, some will work through defense/attack combinations, some will learn to work "around" problems rather than "through" them, some will begin to work through the slower more meticulous process of information gathering before proceeding, and some will use all these stratagems in one form or another.
There was a fundamental change in 4E though in which spell dueling like I describe became less of an option because what spells a mage knows are much more rigid (or at least, that's what seemed to happen to me when I bought the core books). As a result, as I see it, under 4th edition the main thing to do would be to simply research your opponent's capabilities (through divinations, rumormongering, etc...) and simply counter them. Maybe things have changed since the first few books, but ultimately that's what turned me off to 4th edition (and no, I'm not wanting to start a vent against 4th edition, I'm just stating this so that those who might have seen me in previous editions as highly outspoken on the subjects might no longer see me anymore). Well, it was wizardry in general and the multi-class system too. I must say what I've seen of the ideas of planar development in 4th edition seemed wondrous ideas (I'm a little less infatuated with the homogenizing that they did with the realms).
So, to bring this back to the core subject, did 4E ever realize this "absence" that they had created where mages were essentially being tied into specific methodologies by only being allowed a handful of spells? Is classic spell dueling really possible in 4e? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 13:05:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Well, we're talking about Velsharoon being among the living/unliving here, so the traditional zukir structure still would exist in Thay, with that body not dissolving until 1374/75 DR (I forget which one). That said, though, the other zukirs were frenemies of Tam- they'd cooperate, in so far as it benefited them, and Thay as a whole, but if the opportunity came knocking to bump off Tam, I doubt any would have not pursued it. I can say with near certainty that plenty of those unseen, unwritten plots against Tam over the years were connected in various degrees of accountability to his fellow zukirs.
-Tam giving a deity the run around would, at the very least, cause potential enemies to question the wisdom of entering into conflict with the Lich. "If he can do X to a deity, what can he do to a mortal!?" being the main dissuading agent.
Ah, Velsharoon, one of my most favorite subjects. My feeling on the subject has gone multiple directions. My favorite final one was that Velsharoon had ascended by using the phylactery that Mellifleur had left behind right after the avatar crisis (after all Mellifleur, lord of liches, would have been cast out of the heavens like all the gods). At one time I had even started a short story about him. What I had proposed was that while Velsharoon had ascended to divine status, he had not been able to purge Mellifleur entirely. So actually, the two deities were at odds (split personality at a godly level.... with avatars) but oftentimes shared goals. This may have been seen with the divine double dealing Velsharoon/Mellifleur was doing.
Would Tam be hacked off by this? yes! Would Velsharoon act out against one of the most powerful necromancers in Faerun? No, he wouldn't because Velsharoon gained his own power from necromantic acts. However, he may "mess with" Velsharoon to push him into doing more flagrant necromancies (wow, didn't Tam suddenly start pushing the necromantic envelope).
One final thing I had put forward was WHEN did Mellifleur ascend? We know that Mellifleur came into power AFTER Bane, because Mellifleur's ascension was a divine accident pulling power from Bane. My personal thoughts are that Mellifleur was a Narfellian sorceror, and I had written up some stuff way back when on the subject when dealing with the story of the demi-lich who had been one of the first zulkirs.
Anyway, I've gotten way off subject, forgive my running of the mouth. I'd love to hear any views others have for this stuff though. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 13:15:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I agree with Dennis here. I recall it only blocking them from the empire itself. If it blocked all gods from the entire sphere, none of the Faerunian gods could contact their followers at all. Unless it simply blocked any NEW ones from coming in- that I might believe.
I'd have to look up the exact wording, but I believe it simply blocked the Mulhorandi and Untheric Pantheons from entering the crystal sphere in their fully divine forms. It didn't block them coming over in a form similiar to avatars on the galley of the gods which was created by Ptah (that was who made the galley, I think, could be wrong). Ptah himself didn't come over. Then these semi-divine being fought the Imaskari. The Imaskari were cast down and the semi-divine began to mate with the ruling body of their worshippers, and thus were created the god-kings. It was literally through the god-kings that the "gods" of Mulhorand and Unther gave out their divine power to the clergy. It kind of also explains why the Mulhorandi and Untherite priesthoods didn't expand, because their forms never could get enough divine "status" built up to support more clergy. A notable exception here was Bast, who subsumed the power of an elven deity and then went on to become Sharess. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3763 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 17:20:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Easy. Ao's powers and control don't reach beyond the Realmspace, while the Imaskarans could travel beyond, and therefore learn something or summon something from almost any conceivable worlds/planes of existence.
-I think you're falling into the "trap" of thinking Ao to be like some 'ordinary' deity, but just way more powerful than them. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 02:12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Easy. Ao's powers and control don't reach beyond the Realmspace, while the Imaskarans could travel beyond, and therefore learn something or summon something from almost any conceivable worlds/planes of existence.
-I think you're falling into the "trap" of thinking Ao to be like some 'ordinary' deity, but just way more powerful than them.
Agreed. Ao is supposed to be the "Great Unknown." Quantifying his scope in such a manner, detracts from the very concept of a Creator God. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:17:26
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Nope, I don't think Ao is an ordinary deity. Quite the opposite. That's why the Imaskarans would most likely employ a far more advanced kind of godswall if they wished to block him. But you're right, Sage. Little is known about him, and 'tis hard to quantify his powers. Well, that doesn't the Imaskarans couldn't try. They would attempt to erect a godswall against Ao---and fail in the end. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3763 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:25:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Nope, I don't think Ao is an ordinary deity. Quite the opposite. That's why the Imaskarans would most likely employ a far more advanced kind of godswall if they wished to block him. But you're right, Sage. Little is known about him, and 'tis hard to quantify his powers. Well, that doesn't the Imaskarans couldn't try. They would attempt to erect a godswall against Ao---and fail in the end.
-That's if the Imaskari knew of Ao's existence, to begin with. I don't want to say that the Time of Troubles was the first time he revealed himself to mortals, but it might have been. And, had the Imaskari been aware of Ao's presence, that might not have lasted long enough to do much inquiring as to his true nature, given that, contemporarily, everyone who witnessed Ao in Waterdeep slowly forgot, without even realizing they forgot. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:38:56
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It might not be an exact knowing, but a "feeling/sensing" of some powerful entity more puissant than their slaves' gods. And sensing it threatened them. So they attempted to raise a barrier against such entity (Ao). |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3763 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:50:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It might not be an exact knowing, but a "feeling/sensing" of some powerful entity more puissant than their slaves' gods. And sensing it threatened them. So they attempted to raise a barrier against such entity (Ao).
-I don't think Ao would threaten them, actively (most mortals are below Ao's bothering), or that he'd set off their alarms passively (Ao's existence is neither good, nor bad; Ao just is). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 08 Jun 2011 05:51:02 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 10:52:10
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I agree with Lord Karsus.
Me, I think Ao allowed the raising of the Imaskari deific barrier as a test. If those deities couldn't figure out a way around mortal magic, then they were not worthy of their followers' worship. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 11:51:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I agree with Lord Karsus.
Me, I think Ao allowed the raising of the Imaskari deific barrier as a test. If those deities couldn't figure out a way around mortal magic, then they were not worthy of their followers' worship.
Or he needed the time to figure out how to breach the godswall. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 16:43:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Me, I think Ao allowed the raising of the Imaskari deific barrier as a test. If those deities couldn't figure out a way around mortal magic, then they were not worthy of their followers' worship.
That, or it was simply a matter of Ao underlining the fact that as the Creator God, he determines which interloper deities can enter into Realmspace and establish a divine presence. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3763 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 17:56:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That, or it was simply a matter of Ao underlining the fact that as the Creator God, he determines which interloper deities can enter into Realmspace and establish a divine presence.
-Exactly what I was thinking. They're visitors to Faerūn, and it natives (the Imaskari) don't want them there, and do something with so much chutzpah as to actually erect a powerful planar barrier to keep them out, more power to them, he's not going to interfere. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 18:06:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Me, I think Ao allowed the raising of the Imaskari deific barrier as a test. If those deities couldn't figure out a way around mortal magic, then they were not worthy of their followers' worship.
That, or it was simply a matter of Ao underlining the fact that as the Creator God, he determines which interloper deities can enter into Realmspace and establish a divine presence.
That doesn't work as readily for me... Because if Ao wanted to let those guys in, he could have just knocked down that barrier. Instead he sat back and let them work for it. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2011 : 01:24:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Me, I think Ao allowed the raising of the Imaskari deific barrier as a test. If those deities couldn't figure out a way around mortal magic, then they were not worthy of their followers' worship.
That, or it was simply a matter of Ao underlining the fact that as the Creator God, he determines which interloper deities can enter into Realmspace and establish a divine presence.
That doesn't work as readily for me... Because if Ao wanted to let those guys in, he could have just knocked down that barrier. Instead he sat back and let them work for it.
Well, it's worth noting that Ao does have a history of being inattentive when it comes to the needs of certain deities. Maybe this was just another example.
Besides, it's defined in Faiths & Avatars that Ao has final say on the creation/introduction of new deities into Realmspace. So based on that, I'm assuming whatever interest he later had in allowing the Mulan deities into Realmspace, was focused more specifically, on whether or not such deities would unbalance/disrupt the status of the current lot of gods in the Realms.
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 13:32:24
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| I dont think Ao bothered or cared much since the mulhorandi gods were not of his concern at least at that moment in time, he probably had something else to do, or that he just didnt really care, i mean he doesnt get involved in the affairs of mortals unless it affects the stability of the crystal spheres or thefts(tablets), besides if the mulhorandi gods could not break the imaskari's magic wall, then they cant be called gods... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 18:49:54
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That Ao didn't knock down the godswall was not a test for the Mulhorandi gods. He simply didn't care. He had nothing to lose nor earn if he intervened. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 01:29:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That Ao didn't knock down the godswall was not a test for the Mulhorandi gods. He simply didn't care. He had nothing to lose nor earn if he intervened.
Actually, if we're regarding Ao's conduct re: the Mulan gods in such a way, then my own and Wooly's perspectives above, become the more appropriate interpretations.
Powers & Pantheons reveals that Ao "allowed only those gods whose manifestations had maintained a continuous presence in the Realms until the Time of Troubles to maintain a body of worshipers in the Realms." [pg. 96]
So in some respect, at least, Ao instituted a kind of test/policy/decision-making process for the Mulan gods to establish themselves permanently in Realmspace. Whether it was because he was making them work for it, or he was simply trying to determine whether the new interloper gods would disrupt the status-quo among the existing pantheon... only Ao can know, I suppose. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3763 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 05:42:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Whether it was because he was making them work for it, or he was simply trying to determine whether the new interloper gods would disrupt the status-quo among the existing pantheon... only Ao can know, I suppose.
-I don't think personally think gauging the "intent" of interloper deities had/has much to do with it, though Ao certainly might have cause to wonder about interloper deities. Plenty of interloper deities in Realmspace are, or were, major players in historical events and whatnot over the centuries. Corellon Larethian, an interloper, "approved" the Elven High Magic that weaved the Dracorage mythal, which drastically altered the sociopolitical face of the planet, and the spell that was the Sundering, in which the literal face of the planet was altered. The Elves were still relatively new imports to Faerūn, along with the gods and goddesses. Since then, Ao certainly might have more cause to wonder whether or not allowing interlopers in freely is the best thing for Realmspace. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 08:58:22
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| if it was all about interloper dieties, then wouldnt Ao have destroyed zehir or at least send him back, not to mention a ton of other gods who should not have died(velsharoon,cough,cough) should have been allowed to live or those who killed other gods should be punished like shar and or cyric |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2011 : 14:19:13
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| I'd put it more like Ao's looking at his "ant farm" in realmspace. He sees some of the "ants" open a portal to another crystal sphere and come back with "worker ants". He then sees his "ants" erect a powerful barrier to stop the "anteaters" who were coming to get their "worker ants" back. He finds it amusing that the "anteaters" can't get through his "ants" barrier and he figures "let me see what the anteaters will do to bypass this... this could be funny". So, the "anteaters" figure out that they can shoot their tongues through the barrier to interact with the "worker ants" to gain a small amount of sustenance. This entertainment is just fun to watch, so, he leaves the barrier in place until he either got bored with it or it somehow got in his way with redesigning things. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2011 : 14:26:14
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Ao is too apathetic to be amused by "ants." |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Magic Theory 101
