| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 17 May 2011 : 05:23:17
|
He didn't. Though I'm not sure if Mystryl herself didn't foresee the means he would take to save his empire. [Or was she overconfident that no mortal could ever challenge her?] |
Every beginning has an end. |
 |
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 06:14:48
|
I hadn't realized Sleyvas posted here, very nice to see him again!
But I wish this had been titled Magical Tactics 101, since that seems to be the thread's true subject. That's a worthy subject, though as a confirmed old school 1e/2e gamer, much of the discussion (outside Sleyvas' wonderful tutorial post - I'm going to copy/paste that and send it to my PBEM games for my mage players to study.) has left me behind.
I find that the nature of old school magic, at the levels my games reached (1st to 12th or so) didn't leave the players with the sort of options we find suggested here.
Indeed, in AD&D I find that spell-dueling resembles a Old West quick-draw contest more than it more than Western fencing. He who strikes fastest and hardest wins, and there are very, very few parries.
Certain spells are pretty much game changers right off the bat, such as Magic Missile, with no save and auto hit the mage who won initiative could do damage and suffer no return spell. Of course, it was a fairly easy spell to block, with a shield spell but the duelist did have to have gotten shield up first.
I always felt that given the nature of the AD&D magic system there were too few low-level 'permanent' or 'hanging' spells that the mage ould count on if attacked suddenly. Especially at low levels. armor was good but mostly against non-magic foes. Shield's duration was too short. Something like Stoneskin was better.
I might post more later on tactics, if my old school stuff is welcome here, but I do wish there was also a thread on actualy theory and spell design... in fact, I think i will start one hoping to get some more of the old breed discussing that aspect. :) Look for "Magical theory and Spell design in AD&D" :)
|
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 06:39:49
|
Well, if we're just talking combat, there are some less-obvious options. Invisibility works well, since a mage who can't be seen can't be targeted accurately. Blur, Mirror Image, and a few others help, as well. And there are also spells that distract, such as Ghost Sound, Gust of Wind, Tickle Finger, Nature Call, and others.
Personally, I prefer the tactics that keep a mage out of combat altogether. Spells like Shadow Walk, Dimension Door, or Ethereal Jaunt, help keep the wizard from ever getting hit, as do Gaseous Form, Levitate, Fly, and Expeditious Retreat. Haste is a great one for this, too. Swift Swim and Freedom of Movement help in aquatic situations.
And then there are the harassment spells. You know the ones- Irresistible Dance, Hideous Laughter, Silence, Hold Person, and Blind/Deafen. Shout, Greater Shout, Melt Metal, Shatter, and similar magics can also harry an opponent to no end. Lockjaw on a dragon is a lifesaver, as mentioned earlier, but it would wok just as well for most other monsters with big pointy teeth. Wizards do not have to be blasters to take down an enemy- sometimes just using Wingbind on an airborne creature is all you need. In combination with Stone Spikes, one can kill just about anything on the wing almost instantly.
For fighting in the Underdark, Light, Continual Flame, and Daylight are essential. Darkness and Cloak of Darkness are good for light-sensitive casters in bright light. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 07:38:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I always thought that the circle dance that uprooted Tintageer and planted it in the Realms was the most impressive. Or perhaps the creation of Evermeet. Who needs to block gods when you can literally re-make the world?
-Tintageer wasn't uprooted and planted on Abeir-Toril. Tintageer was destroyed, back in the Plane of Faerie. The survivors of Tintageer went on to found the cities of Sharlarion and Occidian on Faerūn.
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Actually considering that he was so powerful, he simply thought that nothing could go wrong, maybe he did not foresee that mystryl would retaliate
-Technically, nothing did go wrong, with the casting of the spell, and it's success. It was Mystryl being, well, a not nice name for a female dog that caused everything to go haywire. While linked during the duration of the spell, magic still existed. It was Mystryl not believing that a once-mortal could handle the duties of being deity of magic- the constant repairs to the Weave, needed because of the power of the Netherese and the Phaerimm- that caused her to commit suicide, severing my connection to her, causing magic to finally cease to exist for a minute or so before she "rebooted" herself as Mystra 1.0. The spell did exactly what it was supposed to do, and would have ended as it would have, had Mystryl not done what she did. It was not so much retaliation as much as it was job security. She didn't kill herself to get at the Arcanist of Arcanists. She did it because she didn't believe that beautiful mind could handle being the deity of magic for the duration of the spell, and that he'd ruin things for her once the spell ended she reasserted herself. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 17 May 2011 07:48:36 |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 10:48:05
|
| Well i do hope that karsus comes back, maybe a group of adventurers kill shar and her divine power brings him back, or just velsharoon, only because necromancy is my great love |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2011 : 18:44:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Well i do hope that karsus comes back, maybe a group of adventurers kill shar and her divine power brings him back, or just velsharoon, only because necromancy is my great love
-I would have to say, I don't trust Wizards of the Coast enough to make a return of the Arcanist of Arcanists any good. Technically speaking, anyway, because my soul was split into three, it'd be pretty damn hard to actually bring me back among the living.
-Velsharoon, I'm always down for powerful Liches. I don't know why he was offed, anyway- especially in the way he was offed. More intriguing, if they absolutely had to have his divinity taken away, would be to make him a mortal again, and then have Szass Tam resolve unfinished business with him, and see where that goes. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 00:49:15
|
Szass Tam no longer cares about Velsharoon. His main goal now is beyond petty rivalry. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 01:17:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Szass Tam no longer cares about Velsharoon. His main goal now is beyond petty rivalry.
-If he still was among the...living?...unliving?...existing, I bet Tam would feel differently about Velsharoon. Though, feuding with a deity isn't necessarily a smart thing- though, apparently Tam is strong enough to contain an angry Bane, so whatevs. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 02:25:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Szass Tam no longer cares about Velsharoon. His main goal now is beyond petty rivalry.
-If he still was among the...living?...unliving?...existing, I bet Tam would feel differently about Velsharoon. Though, feuding with a deity isn't necessarily a smart thing- though, apparently Tam is strong enough to contain an angry Bane, so whatevs.
Not unless Velsharoon deliberately attempts to foil Tam's plans. If he fights Velsharoon, he'd make himself vulnerable to his other enemies. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 05:43:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Not unless Velsharoon deliberately attempts to foil Tam's plans. If he fights Velsharoon, he'd make himself vulnerable to his other enemies.
-Once Velsharoon underwent apotheosis, I think it is more accurate to believe that Szass Tam was no longer "worth" his desire for revenge- especially with hungry deities lurking around, wanting to siphon off and consume his divine essence for their own devices. Regarding Tam himself, "letting off" a direct rival doesn't particularly make onceself look good in front of one's enemies. Of course, Velsharoon was a deity, but as mentioned, if Tam has/had the power to forcibly summon and bind Bane- a Greater Deity- for a limited amount of time, he certainly could have acted out against Velsharoon- a Lesser Deity- in some capacity. In fact, I'd wager that showing that not even becoming a deity can protect you from the wrath of Szass Tam would do more to dissuade enemies from trying anything than not doing anything, and planning for theoretical plots against you hatched by enemies. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 06:22:09
|
I think his enemies will not be dissuaded. They would instead see it as an opening. Tam no longer has with him the might of the other zulkirs. So when he gets too preoccupied dealing with a certain threat, no other being would ensure Thay remains what it is, no other entity would protect it from his enemies. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 06:34:19
|
-Well, we're talking about Velsharoon being among the living/unliving here, so the traditional zukir structure still would exist in Thay, with that body not dissolving until 1374/75 DR (I forget which one). That said, though, the other zukirs were frenemies of Tam- they'd cooperate, in so far as it benefited them, and Thay as a whole, but if the opportunity came knocking to bump off Tam, I doubt any would have not pursued it. I can say with near certainty that plenty of those unseen, unwritten plots against Tam over the years were connected in various degrees of accountability to his fellow zukirs.
-Tam giving a deity the run around would, at the very least, cause potential enemies to question the wisdom of entering into conflict with the Lich. "If he can do X to a deity, what can he do to a mortal!?" being the main dissuading agent. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2011 : 07:04:36
|
You didn't say it will be pre-SP. 
Given your premise, yes, Tam can chase Velsharoom and they can have a catfight [or cockfight, you choose] for as long as they want---so long as the other zulkirs are there to ensure Thay's security. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2011 : 05:42:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
You didn't say it will be pre-SP.
-Well, given the fact that I said when he was alive/unalive/whatever state he'd be in, as an Lich deity. But, anyway, yeah. We agreed.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Erm, by "Tintageer", I meant what little of it came with them when they opened the way between the two. IIRC, some part of the hill ended up in Faerun with the survivors of the dance after the wave struck. Neither here not there, since it was the elves themselves who were the important part which was transported.
-Tintageer was destroyed by a great wave, possibly caused by other Elven magi on the Plane of Faerie using Elven High Magic, or possibly as backlash in a spell that their High Magi cast. To escape doom, survivors fled to The Dancing Hill, a holy site on Tintageer, where a Priestess used High magic to teleport them to Realmspace, to the site that would become the city of Sharlarion- which, I postulate would later become the capital city of Aryvandaar thousands of year later. The Elves themselves were transported, though, not the landscape. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 19 May 2011 05:50:05 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2011 : 06:02:28
|
| And yet I seem to recall that the area they ended up in seemed to have a close resemblance to where they had been. Somehow, I doubt that there would have been so few to survive if it was a simple matter of a mass-teleport or gate-type spell. It makes more sense if it had also transported part of the hill, too. That would take much more power, and explain why some of them died en route. Could just be my interpretation, but it seems like they were taking the holy site with them. I'm not saying they took the whole darn thing, mind- just that some of it apparently went along for the ride! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2011 : 14:04:23
|
| What about that drow spell you know the high magic one that wiped the name kiaransalee from every one who ever heard of it, thus destroying her instantly, thats powerful magic too. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2011 : 04:02:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And yet I seem to recall that the area they ended up in seemed to have a close resemblance to where they had been. Somehow, I doubt that there would have been so few to survive if it was a simple matter of a mass-teleport or gate-type spell. It makes more sense if it had also transported part of the hill, too. That would take much more power, and explain why some of them died en route. Could just be my interpretation, but it seems like they were taking the holy site with them. I'm not saying they took the whole darn thing, mind- just that some of it apparently went along for the ride!
-Not particularly, no. The area of Faerūn where they wound up was what it was, part of Faerūn. The region wasn't transported from Faerie, nor was it mentioned that it was similar to Tintageer- since we know next to nothing about Tintageers topography. Given, according to D&D lore, the Plane of Faerie is roughly conterminous with the Material Plane, we can surmise that the island of Tintageer was hilly, with plains and mountainous regions, like the area of Faerūn where her survivors appeared. The Elven High Magic ritual that transported the Elves was "held together" by a single priestess, and powered by the combined survivors- those that made it to the magical site of Faerie numbered relativley few to begin with.
|
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2011 : 15:01:39
|
LK has the right of it.
Although I felt (reading the novel) that the Elves 'landed' somewhere on or near the coast, and then felt later (also still reading the novel) that that place would have been wiped-away when the world was sundered (by them). I believe there is at least one scene where they are on cliffs over-looking a sea (although I can no longer check sources so I could easily be wrong on that point).
I have since changed my mind about the details, taking into account other canon (like the GHotR). It appears that the ritual affected Toril's terrain in the past, before the (High/Eladrin) Elves arrived, which means the coast they landed on (if that was even the case) could still be intact in the current time. The GHotR hints at the ritual having inadvertently caused the catastrophe that lead to the elven exodus in the first place, but (IIRC) that falls into the realm of 'canon conjecture' and not 'canon fact'.
My own personal theory - based in-part on newer 4e lore - is that the elves did NOT sunder the world at all, but rather tapped-into the sundering Ao did when he separated the Abeir from Toril, and managed to 'bend' a small piece of the magic to their own whims (the creation of Evermeet in Realmspace). Unfortunately, magic of that caliber often falls into the 'monkey's paw' variety, and is somewhat likely they were the architects of their own destruction back in Faerie.
There are MANY examples of that sort of 'cosmic balance' thing in Fantasy literature, and there are also examples of Elven high magic both manipulating and being manipulated by 'outside forces' to skew the results (the Mythal around Myth Drannor being the first example that jumps to mind).
Ergo, to bring this closer to the OT, I postulate that the more complicated (and powerful) a bit of magic is, the higher the chance you will get unforeseen side-effects, either through built-in cosmic balancing contingencies, or by outside forces trying to bend the magic to their own ends.
In other words, the more complicated the weaving of the spell/ritual is, the more variables come into play, and the more things that can go wrong. That's one of the most basic principles of engineering, and even if magic is just fantasy, it still has to adhere to the greater laws of the universe itself - Murphy's Law at it's finest. Yin & Yang - for every action, there is a re-action. You start pulling on the fabric of the universe, something is bound to unravel. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 20 May 2011 15:04:28 |
|
|
|
GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2011 : 20:47:39
|
Looking at the actual novel, on page 93 it clearly says Tintageer is an island, and their magic defeated thier foes but caused the cataclysm that destroyed the island. They danced in a place of power and were transported to another place of power.
page 96-97 is confusing, it says they landed on an 'unknown shore' before they look around, but then describes a plateau on top of a mountain, with pine forests and a river, it doesn't seem to be near the ocean. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 01:09:51
|
Tintageer was an island, and many folks feel that Evermeet is an 'echo' of that lost Elven homeland.
Hinted at, once again, in the GHotR vingette.
The fact that the elves 'thought' at the time that the magic they used against their enemies somehow back-fired on them, that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. It may have even been a weird, anomalous conjunction between the Elven Sundering Ritual (that created Evermeet), Ao's own world-splitting magic (in the past), and the high magic they were throwing around during whatever conflict was taking place.
In fact, it may be that High Magic is a more 'primal' form of magic, and taps closer to the primal forces of the universe itself, including time (which may be why certain Elven rituals and divine magic can "Reach backwards and forwards in time"). Whereas the more normal arcane (Weave) magic can only adversely affect the physical universe and normal, natural conditions (in other words, the backlash/side-effects from potent 'regular' magic would be unlikely to reach through time).
In that way, Elven High Magic is both more powerful, and more subtle, in that it 'borrows' from other magical (related?) phenomena wherever - and WHENever - it can find it. I'm not sure if I'm explaining it right - its more like elves manipulate existing energies, rather then try to empower their spells directly, as human magic does.
Just a theory, of course - nothing canon. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 22:16:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
LK has the right of it.
Although I felt (reading the novel) that the Elves 'landed' somewhere on or near the coast, and then felt later (also still reading the novel) that that place would have been wiped-away when the world was sundered (by them). I believe there is at least one scene where they are on cliffs over-looking a sea (although I can no longer check sources so I could easily be wrong on that point).
I have since changed my mind about the details, taking into account other canon (like the GHotR). It appears that the ritual affected Toril's terrain in the past, before the (High/Eladrin) Elves arrived, which means the coast they landed on (if that was even the case) could still be intact in the current time. The GHotR hints at the ritual having inadvertently caused the catastrophe that lead to the elven exodus in the first place, but (IIRC) that falls into the realm of 'canon conjecture' and not 'canon fact'.
-Evermeet: Island of the Elves hints that the catastrophe that befell Tintageer was indeed caused by the backlash of Elven High Magic that Tintageer's defenders used against their enemies. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 18:23:04
|
| MT, I like that theory. If I am wrong as it seems, it is possibly due to similarities in the landscape as mentioned. Though I like to think the ritual simply transported everything in the immediate vicinity. Perhaps they did indeed take a piece of "home" with them? Creating a direct link to Fairie through the landscape itself would make some sense, wouldn't it? Especially in light of some of the 4th ed lore. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 01:11:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
MT, I like that theory. If I am wrong as it seems, it is possibly due to similarities in the landscape as mentioned. Though I like to think the ritual simply transported everything in the immediate vicinity. Perhaps they did indeed take a piece of "home" with them? Creating a direct link to Fairie through the landscape itself would make some sense, wouldn't it? Especially in light of some of the 4th ed lore.
I don't think any of the territory was transported, but it does specifically say it was from a place of power to a place of power.
|
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2011 : 19:05:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Which would make the circle dance even higher, most likely. Blocking gods from one region is pretty potent magic, but I'd say that completely reshaping the continent is even more so!
Blocking gods from a region? Are we talking about the Imaskari? If so, they blocked them from the entire crystal sphere. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 04:19:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Imaskari only blocked the gods from their own little region- if they had blocked them from the entire sphere, Toril would have no gods at all.....
This is incorrect. The Godswall barred gods from entering the Realmspace crystal sphere. |
Brace Cormaeril |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 05:10:40
|
Interesting. I thought it's limited to their empire, though that alone was no small feat---their empire was huge. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Magic Theory 101
