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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 19:59:41
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I DO tend to think of most people in psychological terms. I don't see what's the problem with labeling things, really. I know there's a huge stigma against it in our society, but it only becomes a "bad" thing when we refuse to accept anything as reality that lies beyond those labels... Which is why we have more descriptive, flowing labels, basically.
That's what I mean by psychological realism - I want a character to be consistent. That doesn't mean I want them to act the same in every situation, but I just don't want them to act so out of character that it makes it seem like the character has become a device for dramatic counterpoint, and not an actual person any more.
And, yes, this does tie into sex. I'd love to see a sex scene of a villain - and I don't mean BoVD sex necessarily, either. Perhaps a villain may use sex (and the resulting endorphins and adrenaline) to find an escape from the life of murder and mischief that they found themselves on; perhaps they 'pretend' like it's a loving engagement...
I just want characters to be really thought-out, personality-wise, and this applies to sex, love, family, and everything else. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 24 Jul 2006 20:01:49 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 20:15:21
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This is not the place to discuss psychology, so I will not pursue the subject as this will lead into discussions that are both sensitive and non-realmsian.
But I will say again that there is an immense under-detailing of the family life of npc's and characters. Sex is one thing, and an important thing, but there is also the case of the characters intimate circle of people. Now, in novels this is understandable, but in gaming products where this can be mentioned with just a couple of words, how many have kids for example?
I am not talking about products becoming ten volume family chronicles, but is it not strange that there has never been mentioned children? |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 20:19:09
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| Well, in certain books, family is quite important. Books by Elaine Cunningham, for one. And Ed. And Steve's most recent novel. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 20:26:41
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Well, in certain books, family is quite important. Books by Elaine Cunningham, for one. And Ed. And Steve's most recent novel. :)
I am not talking of family and lineage in general. Mind, I still have not read Blackstaff, but I have trouble thinking of many children being mentioned in either Ed's or Elaines books. But, as I said, novels are one thing, but take any source-book that comes to mind. How many of the characters mentioned there have any mentions of a family; spouse or child? Ed has quite a few in his Volo guides, but even then it is usually grown up children. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 20:45:18
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| Sourcebooks, yes. The mention of family is quite rare indeed... Which is amusing, since, when one makes a character, one of the first things one does is make a basic family idea/tree. At least, that's what I do. :) Always, at least, parents and siblings, and any other important family members. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 20:53:04
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GothicDan: If what you truly want is realism, you can't get any realer than people who are not in any clinical sense mentally disordered committing atrocities against others. History is full of it from ancient times right on down to today's newspaper.
A primary reason for this (in my half-baked opinion) is the human genius for dividing mankind into groups: MY group, the REAL people (because we come from the right country or believe in the true faith or whatever) and the OTHER group, the inferior, immoral, and/or threatening one. Once people make this division, and a great many people seem eager to make it, then they need not be psychologically deviant in any medical or psychiatric sense to oppress or mistreat the out group. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 21:07:36
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quote:
GothicDan: If what you truly want is realism, you can't get any realer than people who are not in any clinical sense mentally disordered committing atrocities against others. History is full of it from ancient times right on down to today's newspaper.
Many of these people could well be considered mentally disordered, though. I would think a lot of people who are "truly" evil would have to be clinically diagnosed, or close to it, at least... But that's probably because, again, my version of neutrality is very, very broad. I'd consider some major "villains" to be neutral.
And what makes a sane person more real than an insane person? This sounds remarkably similar to the people who tell college students, "Wait until you get out into the -real world.-" ... All aspects of reality are real. It's just that we can personally empathize more with certain groups or situations than others. But, realistically, we simply cannot empathize with everyone because, although we are all human, we are not telepathic.
And that, I think, is in large part what this discussion is about. We want to humanize and personalize individuals to either make them more sympathetic to us or to provide dramatic counterpoint (even that guy next door can be evil). I just don't find that dramatic. Yes, we have sociopaths who eat peoples' flesh and sacrifice their newborns to nebulous entities. (Disregarding the fact that that's obviously clinically psychotic.)
I just don't find it interesting. I'd rather see some more seriously unhinged, alien mindsets and psychologies (like Mieville's stuff). Or, if one does decide to humanize all characters, I don't think they should be lumped so easily into "villains" or "heroes" (such as in the case of GRRM - in which I LIKE the Lannisters, in large part, and consider them just people, not villains).
quote:
A primary reason for this (in my half-baked opinion) is the human genius for dividing mankind into groups: MY group, the REAL people (because we come from the right country or believe in the true faith or whatever) and the OTHER group, the inferior, immoral, and/or threatening one.
Very similar to Nietzsche, who I like quite a bit. :)
quote:
Once people make this division, and a great many people seem eager to make it, then they need not be psychologically deviant in any medical or psychiatric sense to oppress or mistreat the out group.
Except for the fact that, psychologically speaking, those people would probably be labeled as psychologically disabled, too. From a scientific standpoint, if not a cultural standpoint. I suppose there's always some cultural influence in everything, though. But that's how humanity functions... We assign labels so we can communicate with each other about things, first and foremost. Even Hitler didn't particularly hate the Jews; it was his underlings who decided to use them for a scapegoat, and he just went along with it. It wasn't an "us versus them" thing, at first, it was purely convenience. (Though the Nazis were said to have been amazing parents in some cases... Though even among the Nazis, the vast majority didn't know the extent of what they were doing, or what the government was doing.)
And I think that in our modern society in which the stress is much more on the individual rather than the group (for good or for ill) this is becoming far more common, because we don't NEED other people as much to live any more. At least, we don't need them in a close, personal, "tribal" sense.
EDIT: Sorry for going so OT again. I guess, in conclusion, I want psychological depth that just isn't suited to action-adventure D&D novels. :( I'd rather see PEOPLE... Not "villains with families." I think there's a big difference. The first is realistic, the second isn't. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 24 Jul 2006 21:14:59 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 21:15:24
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Even Hitler didn't particularly hate the Jews; it was his underlings who decided to use them for a scapegoat, and he just went along with it. It wasn't an "us versus them" thing, at first, it was purely convenience.
I think you should study history a bit more carefully before drawing conclusions like this.
I also disagree quite strongly on your psychological points, but as I said this is not the place and I am not in the mood. |
Edited by - Jorkens on 24 Jul 2006 21:17:08 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 21:15:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
GothicDan: If what you truly want is realism, you can't get any realer than people who are not in any clinical sense mentally disordered committing atrocities against others. History is full of it from ancient times right on down to today's newspaper.
A primary reason for this (in my half-baked opinion) is the human genius for dividing mankind into groups: MY group, the REAL people (because we come from the right country or believe in the true faith or whatever) and the OTHER group, the inferior, immoral, and/or threatening one. Once people make this division, and a great many people seem eager to make it, then they need not be psychologically deviant in any medical or psychiatric sense to oppress or mistreat the out group.
Yes. I couldn't agree more.
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Many of these people could well be considered mentally disordered, though. I would think a lot of people who are "truly" evil would have to be clinically diagnosed, or close to it, at least... But that's probably because, again, my version of neutrality is very, very broad. I'd consider some major "villains" to be neutral.
I don't understand why you fixate and insist on the idea that "these people" must have mental disorders of some sort. Do you think "clinically sane" people aren't capable of terrible things? |
Edited by - Winterfox on 24 Jul 2006 21:18:17 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 21:18:36
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quote:
I think you should study history a bit more carefully before drawing conclusions like this.
How do you think I came to the above conclusions? I went to history professors directly rather than just agreeing with whatever I saw in print. :)
quote:
I also disagree quite strongly on your psychological points, but as I said this is not the place and I am not in the mood.
Of course you don't. One could say that I am 'biased' since my family is in large part part of 'the Man' (several relatives with degrees in psychology, and I regularly talk to my neurologist about such things). I don't expect my opinions to be popular. Sorry if I offended in some way. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 21:18:41
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Sex.
Sex sex sex.
Sex in the Realms! 
Cheers,
Erik "no-it's-not-spam" de Bie |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 21:20:39
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quote:
I don't understand why you fixate and insist on the idea that "these people" must have mental disorders of some sort. Do you think "clinically sane" people aren't capable of terrible things?
Sure, they can be. I just no longer find them interesting, because they've been around for thousands of years, and I'd much rather see an appropriately-portrayed insane person..
Anyway, ahem. Taking the cue from Erik...
SEX.
I'm done with this now, until something directly related to sex comes up. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 24 Jul 2006 21:22:25 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 21:27:40
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So, would it be appropriate and possible to write a novel that heavily revolved around sex, guys and gals?
Priest/ess of Sharess, perhaps? |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 21:40:07
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| A FR novel that revolves heavily around sex? Someone could certainly write it and probably produce an engaging story, but I'd be amazed if Wizards published it. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 21:45:07
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Yeah - I forgot about that whole little publication part...
You know, something revolving around the evolution of the Church of Sharess - from Bast, to Zandilar, to her being under the mein of Shar, to being liberated by Sune, to the modern day - would be really, really interesting... And it would give some more stage time to a deity that WotC has really not done much about (beyond a PrC that is kind of subpar). |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 22:02:03
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
So, would it be appropriate and possible to write a novel that heavily revolved around sex, guys and gals?
You mean OTHER than Ed's work?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 22:13:07
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| Yes, other than that. And uncut. ;) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 22:34:32
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Well, Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel series is epic fantasy that revolves heavily around sex, though that isn't in the Realms, nor is it geared for younger readers.
I know I have sex in every one of my books, but it's always FtB (at least so far). People can be sitting around naked, though -- that happens -- before and after. 
I imagine that in order really to have a novel or series of novels focusing on sex, you'd have to get past the PG-13 rating into R territory. Softcore erotica, you can manage small themes in the lower ratings, but get into it being the focus of the book, and you're definitely appealing to an older audience than WotC markets their stuff to. And if the Novel's specifically about sex for sex's sake, we cross into pr0nography land and NC-17.
So yes. It's possible. It's even out there. But you won't see Wizards publishing it -- not until there's a serious change in their marketing strategy, or they open a new line that does mature oriented (18+) material, which I would totally get behind.
Em. . . no pun intended.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 23:12:17
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| I agree with everything you said, Erik. It also occurs to me that there's another problem with doing a Realms novel that focuses first and foremost on sex: No pizza delivery guys! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 23:17:18
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| Bow wicka wicka bow . . . |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 23:19:02
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I may be going out on a limb here, but I just can't see the big fancination (not with sex, but with sex in a fantasy novel, I hasten to add  )
Why do you guys want to read this in a Forgotten Realms novel so much? It's not the main focus and feel of the setting, so why have it as such a large part of the book?
Sure, throw in some romances and a little intimacy, but why go overboard. I'm sure there would be complaints if you were reading about intercourse or some sexual act in every other chapter (seriously!)
Some of the romances I have read in FR novels lately have been at a perfect level - quite subtle and brining out emotions which play a part in the story.
I have no desire to see the level of sexual activity cranked up in FR novels. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 23:19:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Well, Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel series is epic fantasy that revolves heavily around sex, though that isn't in the Realms, nor is it geared for younger readers.
I know I have sex in every one of my books, but it's always FtB (at least so far). People can be sitting around naked, though -- that happens -- before and after.
They are nekkid??? No negli on the woman, or at least a bra? Or some sheets to cover it up? You know that if novels were US TV-movies these things would not be shown at all. Unless it is some HBO thingy. If you'd turn it to a European producer you'd get the flesh part tho |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 23:31:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
I may be going out on a limb here, but I just can't see the big fancination (not with sex, but with sex in a fantasy novel, I hasten to add )
Why do you guys want to read this in a Forgotten Realms novel so much? It's not the main focus and feel of the setting, so why have it as such a large part of the book?
Sure, throw in some romances and a little intimacy, but why go overboard. I'm sure there would be complaints if you were reading about intercourse or some sexual act in every other chapter (seriously!)
Nobody is asking for there to be mindless sex or for FR novels to turn into erotica or, worse yet, the atrocities that've been churned out by the likes of Laurell K. Hamilton.
It's just that, for the most part, there's a distinct... hypocrisy in portraying violence graphically while being prudish about sex. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 23:43:21
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Maybe they should add random sexual encounters for city adventures... "Achilles' Last One-Night-Stand"
Lord Rad, seriously, I am totally on the same level with Winterfox on this: it is totally appropriate to read about people being gutted, dismembered, beheaded, impaled, [insert random form of violent death], BUT if it comes to nakedness or intimacy that part is usually "demonized". Great message in that! Sex is WRONG, cutting someone's throat is RIGHT. Great way to educate children.
It's a matter of equality so to speak, or poetic(in the literal sense) justice/equality. If I can read about violence in its bonecrunching gory detail, which when you think about it is unfortunately for many humans common-day-experience, I also want to read about the good part in life, which should be a far more common-day-experience for everyone in the world instead of the violence. ... I'm babbling, but I think you got the point.
GothicDan... about the Hitler thingy you mentioned, ask those profs if they wear white masks and burn crosses, cuz what they told you is UTTER nonsense. In "Mein Kampf" Hitler expressedly blames the Jews for all the wrongs in the world...or something like that, and there wasn't a schoolyear where we didn't touch on that topic. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 00:00:44
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Mace: I'm back on topic now! No talkie!! ;)
quote:
Why do you guys want to read this in a Forgotten Realms novel so much? It's not the main focus and feel of the setting, so why have it as such a large part of the book?
Read Ed's stuff. That's the focus and feel of the setting. Intrigue, plots, romance, manipulation, courtly dalliances - that is what Forgotten Realms was intended to be. Not sword-and-sorcery. That's why we want to read it in FR books. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 00:06:08
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I think "distinct hypocrisy" might be a little strong, Winterfox. I may be repeating myself here, regurgitating something I posted not that long ago, but hey, that never stopped me before, so here goes:
FR stories fall in the action-adventure genre. Fight scenes are an integral part of action-adventure. Sex scenes are not. So it may not be totally astonishing if you often get the former and not the latter.
In erotica or spicy romantic fiction, it's the other way around. Sex is fundamentally a part of what the average fan of the genre is seeking. Fights aren't. So it would only be reasonably for the writer to toss in more foreplay and less swordplay. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 00:24:06
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Heh.
Well, sex is certainly an action, and can be quite the adventure... ;)
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Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 01:38:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
FR stories fall in the action-adventure genre. Fight scenes are an integral part of action-adventure.
I agree. However...
Don't action-adventure stories almost always feature some kind of romance in them?
And what does romance generally lead to? 
Not saying that romance in a book must always involve sex, but since almost all the FR novels feature a romantic subplot or two, it's only natural, I think, that people want the romantic parts "spiced up" a bit. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 02:01:05
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Hear hear!
Even good ole Indy Jones had a roll in the hay, and that was action adventure at its best... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 02:03:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Hear hear!
Even good ole Indy Jones had a roll in the hay, and that was action adventure at its best...
I was thinking the same thing. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Sex & the Realms
Topic Locked
