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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 03:04:21
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| Unless I went out for popcorn and missed that particular scene (in which case, DARN IT!), the sex in an Indiana Jones movie is handled fade-to-black, just like in your average FR novel. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 03:05:12
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I have to agree with Mace's earlier point.
It seems that in the USA, at least, sex is taboo but violence is fine.... strange country, the USA. Before someone complains to me, I do live in the USA. :)
And we've had this discussion a few years ago with Ed and some of us did express what we would have liked to see. I, for one, would enjoy more sex/sensuality in FR novels because Ed also designed the setting to include it. It's a shame TSR had such a hard on about it. Pun intended. :) And WOTC still has a smaller one. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 25 Jul 2006 03:07:35 |
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Jaleigh J.
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
139 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 04:34:32
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"More foreplay and less swordplay." That's a double entendre. Good one! |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 05:09:52
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| Heh. Heh. :D |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 05:52:17
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| Sure, Jaleigh, you can use it. |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 06:10:42
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I'm forced to admit that there have been situations in my game where people often forget that there's the game and there's reality.
The Game:
Elf: Oh, come on. You can't have sex with her. She's a CHILD.
Human: Oh, come on, now, wot? I'm a woman. I'm FIFTEEN.
Elf: You're a child.
Other Human: She seems just fine to me.
Real World:
Parent: You can't have sex, you're fifteen.
Police Officer: Mr. Seventeen year old, you're under arrest. :)
The truth of the matter is, in a medieval world, people were married and sometimes having sex as early as twelve, or ELEVEN. We have laws now against these things in the USA, BUT, and I stress the word BUT.
The realms is not that world. You can choose to be morally repulsed by such things in real life. But in a fictional world that is designed to approximate a more medieval setting, you have to throw your ideas of what constitutes "Pornography" out the window. I shudder to think at what might happen if any of those religious right folks picked up a medieval history book, or found out what was really going on in Chretien D'Troyes medieval romances. Guenevere can't be more than fifteen in some of these, and she's having sex with Lancelot, who's well into his twenties or early thirties.
Obviously, in the real world, we don't go around doing those sorts of things. We have a society with a different set of rules. But, the caveat is, that when we read fiction, or write fiction for a world with a different set of rules, a lot of people tend to go in with their real world blinders on.
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 08:03:34
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Heh. Heh. :D
A number of Forgotten Realms novels have dealt with romantic relationships with some depth. As mentioned before, the Night Parade has sensual passionate villains. These represent more a force of unbridled lust than of deep spiritual rapport, but it's still interesting. Numerous other novels have on-again off-again relationships. Only Ed's work and some of the Baldur's Gate drow scenes come to mind for more vivid depictions of flesh. I don't know how else to describe those scenes so much as being more descriptive of the physicality of the characters. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 08:09:13
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
But, the caveat is, that when we read fiction, or write fiction for a world with a different set of rules, a lot of people tend to go in with their real world blinders on.
Unfortunately so, and annoying too. I can't rant enough about readers and writers who can't divorce themselves from their real-life views while they read/write fantasy fiction. With the way some settings are, there's no reason people who inhabit them should think like someone from twenty-first century Earth.
Can I bake you some Internet cookies? |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 08:26:09
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Eytan: I'll have to give the Night Parade a read, sometime.
Winterfox: I have some awesome cookie recipes, if you want some suggestions. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 09:13:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Unless I went out for popcorn and missed that particular scene (in which case, DARN IT!), the sex in an Indiana Jones movie is handled fade-to-black, just like in your average FR novel.
I didn't mean to imply any hardcore or whathaveyou scene, of course it was FTB, which is fine for me. None of us said please make the realms equivalent of a Jenna Jameson film, it would just be nice to have other things featured as well, that was what I tried, and for some failed, to point out in the action-adventure Indy Jones there is also romance/sex.
If I remember the three musketeers correctly none of the fights there, and I'd call the story an swashbuckling action adventure, were meaningless, they were used as plot elements, as was the roomance. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 15:16:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
If I remember the three musketeers correctly none of the fights there, and I'd call the story an swashbuckling action adventure, were meaningless, they were used as plot elements, as was the roomance.
Sorry for going of topic, but I am curious. Are you talking about the original books or one of the film versions? If you mean that dribble with Sheen and Sutherland a few years back I heartily agree, but if its the books I would have to say that both the fights and romance are very much a part of the plot. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 16:19:17
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| I mean the stories...even tho I barely remember the old audioplays I heard as a kid, not the film with Sheen etc...hell, the older films were fun tho |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 16:26:48
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I agree about the older movies; the thing is that as with many 19th century books most versions today are heavily shortened down and without the immense amount of subplots the stories originally had the story flows better, but they also loose some of the meanings. This goes for Hugo, Scott and many other writers that originally wrote historic novels but with time ended up as juvenile books.
Now, I will stop derailing the topic; sorry.
P:S: I second the recommendation below; its slightly more comical than the books, but that doesn't harm the movie in any way. Together with the Princess bride the best swashbuckling movies ever made.
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Edited by - Jorkens on 25 Jul 2006 17:37:28 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 17:20:48
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In my opinion, the best film version of The Three Musketeers is Richard Lester's. He directed two movies, The Three Musketeers and The Four Musketeers, which together faitfhully tell the story of the novel, and I think they're great. George MacDonald Fraser, who wrote the brilliant Flashman series of comedy-adventure historical novels, did the screenplays, and the cast includes Michael York, Oliver Reed, Richard Chamberlain, Frank Finlay, Christopher Lee, Faye Dunaway, Raquel Welch, Spike Milligan, and Charleton Heston.
They're out on DVD now, so if you're a Dumas fan, check 'em out! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 17:42:57
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After pondering this a bit more.
I'd also, as Gothic stated earlier in this thread, like to see more NPC's that have more then one partner. Having more then one partner isn't that rare in FR but almost every relationship involves the standard union of two partners. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 17:51:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
In my opinion, the best film version of The Three Musketeers is Richard Lester's. He directed two movies, The Three Musketeers and The Four Musketeers, which together faitfhully tell the story of the novel, and I think they're great. George MacDonald Fraser, who wrote the brilliant Flashman series of comedy-adventure historical novels, did the screenplays, and the cast includes Michael York, Oliver Reed, Richard Chamberlain, Frank Finlay, Christopher Lee, Faye Dunaway, Raquel Welch, Spike Milligan, and Charleton Heston.
They're out on DVD now, so if you're a Dumas fan, check 'em out!
OOOOH...I loved watching those films as a kid! *checks amazon.de immediately* |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 20:58:33
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| Another good example for sex in sword and sorcery is Conan - The Barbarian. Good ole Conan is bonking at least 3 times in the film. If I remember the stories correctly Howard also put some sex in. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 21:57:44
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It would just be weird to read any genre without any romance (and subsequent sexual themes). Humans have the desire to choose mates; that doesn't change if one's swinging a sword all day. In fact, it only increases (if we look at the Thebian Band, cough).
But, again, I guess it comes down to the fact that WotC isn't marketing such things. And TSR didn't before that, either. It just promotes the common misconception that roleplaying (and D&D specifically) is all about fight fight fight magic, tiny blip of character interaction or contrived romance, fight, done.
Guess that's what sells, though. So who are we to want more? :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 25 Jul 2006 21:58:23 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 23:01:04
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I just want to make sure I'm understanding everybody: Is it the consensus that most FR novels don't have any romance or sex in them? (If so, I'm not saying the consensus is wrong. You guys have probably read more of them than I have.)
The discussion prompted me to go back and figure out how many of my published FR novels have a romantic thread to the plot.) Turns out that out of seven, four do. I guess that's way above average? |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 23:19:22
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Too many books I've read...the ones I can remember where romance played a significant role was Twilight Giant, Archwizards, in a strange way Finder's Stone, there are more probably but not really featured as a story-driving factor.
The reason I mentioned Dumas's Musketeers was basically because every aspect of the story gave the story something, be it combat, romance/intrigue etc.
Too tired to think...g'night |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2006 : 23:25:18
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It's not so much the containing of romance - it's an accurate, believable portrayal of that romance, being played out in a realistic fashion that holds to the characterization of both characters.
So far, the only book I've read that romance seemed to be legitimate was Elaine's "Evermeet." But, that was specifically written to echo certain Arthurian themes (and was not sword and sorcery), so I guess one can't use that as a reference for modern novels published by WotC. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 01:36:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I'd also, as Gothic stated earlier in this thread, like to see more NPC's that have more then one partner.
And if so, make some of those NPCs women, not just men. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 01:40:57
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Unless it's men with male lovers, too. ;)
We don't need to see all of the lovin'. But a small show of affection between two males - or two females - out of nowhere would be really cool. Just like a kiss on the cheek - which would be very much acceptable, given that couples do such things a lot, regardless of the context. A good luck kiss or what-not.
There's a lot of room for romance in action. Dragonlance had a strong element of it.. Which was probably why it was, once upon a time, known as the "Romantic" setting (Ravenloft was the Horror one, FR was the High Magic one, etc.) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 01:43:30
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Unless it's men with male lovers, too. ;)
We don't need to see all of the lovin'. But a small show of affection between two males - or two females - out of nowhere would be really cool. Just like a kiss on the cheek - which would be very much acceptable, given that couples do such things a lot, regardless of the context. A good luck kiss or what-not.
There's a lot of room for romance in action. Dragonlance had a strong element of it.. Which was probably why it was, once upon a time, known as the "Romantic" setting (Ravenloft was the Horror one, FR was the High Magic one, etc.)
Why does it have to be two people? :) What's wrong with three+ people? :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 01:47:32
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Like three-way marriage. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 02:08:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Like three-way marriage.
Or more. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 08:33:07
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Hmmm, I will have to say that I read FR books for action and plot mostly. While I realize sex may be a part of a plot, I dont really want it described in detail, and I would not buy a FR book where it was the sole focus. Honestly, I am glad that TSR had a code of ethics, and that WoTC still has one of sorts. I once read something by ED about Alustriel's orgies or something....ugh dreadful stuff. |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 10:55:29
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Dude, no one wanted details in sex scenes, this would be erotica and not really FR, but some attention to detail should be mentioned. When Liriel first slept with Fyodor (oh anothewr romance I forgot!) she felt something she had never felt before. That alone makes a sex scene worth mentionening, since drow sex is kinda sorta violent while humans usually are tender in bed. That scene alone made my day and I was glad Elaine had included it.
Also, Gellion, we are dealing with a semi-believable world, and as such it should simulate life. Without sex no life! And why are orgies dreadful? I doubt any one of us would complain about it should he or she be in one... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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wwwwwww
Learned Scribe
116 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 12:24:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Also, Gellion, we are dealing with a semi-believable world, and as such it should simulate life. Without sex no life! And why are orgies dreadful? I doubt any one of us would complain about it should he or she be in one...
I'm certain there are many people who would rather not involve themselves in orgies. Let’s not let this thread get any more juvenile than it already is. |
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Sex & the Realms
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