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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jul 2006 : 23:36:55
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quote:
I'm certain there are many people who would rather not involve themselves in orgies. Let’s not let this thread get any more juvenile than it already is.
Oh, yes, Classical culture was quite juvenile.
;)
Nothing sexual is juvenile unless you treat it as a child or adolescent would. Which is what I thought we were trying to get AWAY from. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Ignorance Personified
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 00:22:04
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quote:
Originally Posted by Mace Hammerhead:
Dude, no one wanted details in sex scenes, this would be erotica and not really FR, but some attention to detail should be mentioned.
Exactly, I have no desire to read a "blow by blow" account of two characters engaged in intercourse, but something should be mentioned.
Changing the subject slightly, are their any brothels in the Realms?
If not, how do the military commanders manage to keep the soldiers focused?
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Carthago delenda est. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 00:23:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Ignorance Personified
Changing the subject slightly, are their any brothels in the Realms?
If not, how do the military commanders manage to keep the soldiers focused?
Of course there all, many of those festhalls that are mentioned in the sourcebooks are brothels. TSR just called them by a different name. Sharess's clergy runs/works at most of them as well according to Powers & Pantheons. However, there are others who don't venerate/worship that deity that also run, and work at, festhalls. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 27 Jul 2006 04:27:18 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 00:54:54
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As for keeping soldiers focused? Not every militant society thought that the best way to 'focus' their soldiers was to deny them romance.
Again, the Spartans and the Thebian Band.
Granted, they were same-sex pairs, but they were renowned for their fighting ferocity and doggedness. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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wwwwwww
Learned Scribe
116 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 00:55:59
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
I'm certain there are many people who would rather not involve themselves in orgies. Let’s not let this thread get any more juvenile than it already is.
Oh, yes, Classical culture was quite juvenile.
If you want to pretend that everyone in classical culture involved themselves in orgies, go right ahead. Unfortunately for you, there were many, many people who did not. There's two sides to every coin. 
Another thing, don't go assuming that your opinion is always correct. Understand, there were/are many people who believe that orgies are sexually (relationship wise, spiritually, etc.) unhealthy. You might not agree, but that doesn't necessarily make them wrong. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 01:20:26
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I think he means the culture of ancient Greece. I know there's a great orgy scene near the end of one of my favorite novels, "The King Must Die", although that takes place even farther in the past (Minoan times). In that novel, the orgy is a primeval fertility ritual.
Even if one wouldn't actually want to participate in an orgy, reading about an orgy is totally different--at least if it fits the purposes of the story.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 01:32:17
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quote:
If you want to pretend that everyone in classical culture involved themselves in orgies, go right ahead. Unfortunately for you, there were many, many people who did not. There's two sides to every coin.
Good thing I never pretended that, did I? But seeing as I am studying in college, yes indeed, CLASSICS (referring primarily to Roman and Greek cultures, but also extending in part to Minoan and Etruscan and that of Asia Minor), I would have a pretty good GENERAL idea of what was going on during such civilizations. Everything, far from it. I was pointing out that certain cultural taboos held today are NOT the same as those in the Realms; the sexual characteristics of the Realms are much more like Classical culture or some parts of Renaissance culture, not medieval or modern.
quote:
Another thing, don't go assuming that your opinion is always correct. Understand, there were/are many people who believe that orgies are sexually (relationship wise, spiritually, etc.) unhealthy. You might not agree, but that doesn't necessarily make them wrong.
If I didn't think my opinion was correct, I wouldn't think it at all. That doesn't mean I will look down on other people for having other opinions, but it also doesn't mean I'm going to pretend like I'm not confident in my points of view.
If you want to get this personal about this, please respond to me in PMs. This is deviating far too much into personal views of sexuality. In FR, things such as orgies and the like are NOT looked down upon inherently, no matter what one's PERSONAL feelings are about them, yours or mine. Thanks. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 27 Jul 2006 01:36:50 |
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Ignorance Personified
Seeker
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 04:17:11
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quote:
Posted by: Kuje
Of course there all, all those festhalls that are mentioned in sourcebooks are brothels. TSR just called them by a different name. Sharess's clergy runs/works at most of them as well.
Thanks. Have these halls ever made an appearance in a novel or short story?
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Carthago delenda est. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 04:24:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ignorance Personified
quote:
Posted by: Kuje
Of course there all, all those festhalls that are mentioned in sourcebooks are brothels. TSR just called them by a different name. Sharess's clergy runs/works at most of them as well.
Thanks. Have these halls ever made an appearance in a novel or short story?
An official one.... hmmm Ed might have used them a time or two.
However, I have a unofficial short story that involves a festhall in Westgate but no one's been able to read it yet cause it's being edited.
And no, I'm not pushing to get it edited, I know that the editor is busy and I understand that. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 27 Jul 2006 04:24:26 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 04:54:02
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| Official? What about that one in Kemp's novel? :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 04:57:08
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Official? What about that one in Kemp's novel? :)
The temple of Sune? Well, I didn't want to mention that cause the deity of love is a stretch for a festhall when you have Sharess. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 05:04:08
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True.
It just happened to have a lot of prostitutes. *Cough* |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 06:08:05
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Heh, let me clear up some things. I do not have a problem with sex being in a story, as I have read the scene with Liriel and Fyodor and I was not bothered by it. I just misread what some of you wanted, and I thought you all wanted full blown erotica in FR novels, but I was obviously mistaken.
The Alustriel scene just rubbed me the wrong way for some reason, personal taste, thats all. |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 06:18:08
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| Full-blown erotica? Of course not. There's only half a handful of series I read with full-blown erotica, and most of them have only brief scenes (though not all). I dunno about the others. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 13:57:05
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Umm, I don't recall an Ed-penned detailed orgy scene involving Alustriel. Where did this appear?
From what I recall, in the Alustriel appearances (Silverfall, for instance) I've read, there was brief nudity, before characters got dressed, but only implied sex.
The only orgy I remember in Realms fiction was RAS, at the end of Homeland: copulating with demons and the graduating class going at it with their teachers.
Funny how those disgusted with sex always zero in on Ed's rather tame stuff. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 14:26:59
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| Ed mentioned the "orgies" in his Realmslore article dealing with Alustriel and in his ask Ed scroll here in Candlekeep |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 15:25:15
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Yes, I remember those. They were mentions, not descriptions. Hence, I find it hard to understand how they can be "disgusting," as an earlier poster described them.
A mention of something is reportage. To react with a value judgement would seem to require detail, descriptions - something to react TO. Unless someone is coming to the setting with an agenda.
To accept the Realms as a setting involves accepting the mores and values of places in the Realms at a particular time. Alustriel is the ruler of Silverymoon and can very much be said to have "created" the city as it now is. So if the orgies are her way and okay with her, they are okay in that society at that time.
Now, if Ed had written detailed scenes of lovemaking, a scribe might be personally disgusted, yes - but to label a mere mention "disgusting" implies trying to sit in judgement on a fictional setting. Sorta like saying Tolkien is disgusting because he includes orcs and "I find orcs disgusting." |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 15:37:13
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Heh. What she said.
Or to put it in English: I agree, Lovely Lady THO, and you said it better than I could have.
For me, if the sex scene is integral to the story, it's fine. I once discussed this with my mom, and she added: and doesn't deviate from what's expected in a particular line of books. (In other words, no detailed sex in kids' books. No explicit sex in Barbara Cartland novels, because of what readers have been led to expect.) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 15:47:31
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If sex is integral to the story, then yes... I'd agree that it has *a* place in a novel.
However, random sexual encounters in novels are just as pointless and annoying as those that plague most modern films these days. They make me uncomfortable, detract from the story and leaves me wondering just why such an encounter was dropped into the plot in the first place.
However, if the event itself is, rather, a representation of a cultural or personal aspect, such as we've seen with Alustriel as THO pointed out above, I can accept that as well, because it relates with what we already know about the people or the character in question.
But if it's just pointless random sex written into the plot for the sake of writing it in, then that tells me that the writer hasn't spent enough time working on his/her story and/or is simply catering for a particular audience. Fortunately, I've yet to see this with any sexually-related event in Realms fiction.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 27 Jul 2006 15:49:28 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 15:58:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Now, if Ed had written detailed scenes of lovemaking, a scribe might be personally disgusted, yes - but to label a mere mention "disgusting" implies trying to sit in judgement on a fictional setting.
Saying "sex disgusts me" itself rather baffles me, actually. I would understand "gratuitous nudity and sexuality annoy me" (big, big neon sign on the gratuitous bit) or "wow, the writer manages to turn sex absolutely boring to trudge through" or even "gah, this author certainly has a knack for describing sex in the most disgusting ways possible -- I didn't need to know the color of his intimate parts or that she smells like fish!" or "well, sorry, but homosexual/group sex doesn't quite do it for me, I'll pass" and so forth. Or "ew, incest, squick, squick", "ew, necrophilia, squick, squick" or "ew, explicit rape of children!" That I can see why it'd be repulsive.
But "I'm disgusted with sex", period...? Uhm. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 16:16:57
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I'm disgusted with sex...yea right :-P
It's funny tho how some people try to look at any sort of fiction in only one specific way...well maybe it is rather sad. Fiction should make sense as well, and as such it has to contain intercourse, not necessarily but in general, same as with any sort of conflict. Hell, the trojan war started because some dude bonked some lass, well okay, a prince bonked the considerably older queen of another city-state and we had 14 years of war, but THAT is the stuff *legends* are made of. And it all started with a couple rolls in the hay.
Even with Homer (and NOT Simpson for those cretins out there!) sex played an important role |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 16:46:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
It's funny tho how some people try to look at any sort of fiction in only one specific way...well maybe it is rather sad. Fiction should make sense as well, and as such it has to contain intercourse, not necessarily but in general, same as with any sort of conflict.
Fiction has people, people have sex. Yep, it happens. Even unpleasant sex (such as Winterfox describes) has a place, if it's used for characterization, to show how a person can't really connect to people or have real, honest, good sex because of inner turmoil (how many people does that happen to in the real world?). It's SUPPOSED to be uncomfortable and supposed to offend.
Which is not at all to imply that sex makes its way into fiction in order to offend. That's pr0nography, one of the definitions being, "the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction."
As for "fiction should make sense," well....
Fiction is harder than reality, because fiction has to make sense.
Cheers
P.S. And yes, I did borrow that from someone else.  |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 27 Jul 2006 16:49:48 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 16:50:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
As for "fiction should make sense," well....
Fiction is harder than reality, because fiction has to make sense.
P.S. And yes, I did borrow that from someone else.
Twain or?
But you and him are definitely right  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 16:51:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Twain or?
But you and him are definitely right
Twain would be correct.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 17:14:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Twain or?
But you and him are definitely right
Twain would be correct.
Cheers
Isn't it frightening? I forget any birthday except mine, but I can remember stuff like that...
Cheers |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 17:27:37
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Topic is about sex, people. :)
I.E, please get back on topic. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 27 Jul 2006 17:46:34 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 17:32:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Twain or?
But you and him are definitely right
Twain would be correct.
Cheers
It's also Steven Schend's current sig. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Jul 2006 17:40:36 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 17:39:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Topic is about sex people. :)
I.E, please get back on topic.
Oops! 
I had a couple of DMs that did sex scenes, as part of the gaming session. In both cases, I felt it was absolutely pointless, and because of that, it made me uncomfortable. One of those DMs, I flat out told him not to do that again, unless there was a legitimate reason for it.
That's about how I feel about it in novels, too. I don't want to read about it unless it's necessary.
There's a rather popular non-fantasy author that seems to love putting sex and profanity and such in his novels. He can tell a good story, but his gratuitous use of these things is part of the reason I think he's not all that great an author. He's had a lot of best-sellers, but his actual writing isn't all that hot. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Jul 2006 17:43:39 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2006 : 17:55:41
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We got someone to respond to one of our calls for a member in our gaming group last year and I was the only one that could go interview the guy. So I met with him and started talking to him about what kind of characters he liked to play, and what games he had played, and what type of game he was used to. He started off talking about his 100 + level anime inspired character, and I had already decided to NOT extend the offer to join the group, but then he launched into a fairly graphic description of his character and the harem that he inherited when he took over a kingdom, and in the middle of his . . . ahem . . . empassioned description, a woman that I knew fairly well from my church walked by . . . I was absolutely mortified by what was essentially this guy spewing all of his adolecent fantasies that he played out in D&D.
On the other hand, in my own campaign, Stilgar of the Mir was asked to father a child with a half-elf druid that wanted to insure that her offspring was strong and powerful, and Stilgar also managed to have a dalliance with a female cleric of Tempus. It fit with the character, and we didn't have any particular "graphic" descriptions of Stilgar's "encounters."
Just my little experiences. Yes, sex can fit into the story and make perfect sense, and yes, it can be an embarrasing and unneeded distraction as well. |
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Sex & the Realms
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