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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 19:58:51
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Now that I think of it, did not the original lord Orgauth die trying to get back to his wife and children?
Maybe villains family life has not been mentioned more as this would make them more human and therefore problemize killing them? The same with monsters lairs, there are seldom offspring mentioned in these. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 20:05:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I love the idea of the evil, tyrannical necromancer-king knocking off after a hard day at the sacrificial altar and in the torture chamber and coming home to a cozy, loving domestic life with the wife and kids. When I get a chance, I'm writing a bad guy like that.
Wife: "How was your day, dear?"
Evil Necro-King: "Pretty good! I finally defeated that annoying paladin of Lathander, and my minions destroyed the temple of Torm, too. It's been a good day!"
Wife: "That's great! Would you like some meat loaf for dinner?"
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 20:43:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I love the idea of the evil, tyrannical necromancer-king knocking off after a hard day at the sacrificial altar and in the torture chamber and coming home to a cozy, loving domestic life with the wife and kids. When I get a chance, I'm writing a bad guy like that.
The idea is a good one, and there are historical "references" to it, after all those who sent people off to the concentration camps did have families.
The thing is that a person can be an objectively evil, murdering son of a bitch and still see himself as a loving father/husband who makes the world a, from his point of view, better place for his children |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 21:21:03
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You know I recall a thread on the cleric of Loviatar book and how it wasn't immediately sexed up with S&M based on the whole similar whips and bindings thing. That is a good show of restrait by the author. I'm no prude but I imagine things could get way out of hand in a novel like that. 
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Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 00:18:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
Hey, did Drizzt and Alustriel ever get it on? For some reason I always thought Drizzt went to Silverymoon for a booty call.
Not according to Drizzt--he has mentioned in one of his infamous journal entries that they have never been anything more than good friends.
However, I have to wonder if RAS originally planned it out that way, since Alustriel seemed to have a fondness for him beyond friendship back in the Icewind Dale trilogy. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 00:24:31
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Rino, that's a really amusing point. I think it's because it drives possibly too close to home...
*nods* Understood. I'm straight, but I have people close to me who aren't.
quote:
It is sad, Rinonalyrna.
And mind-boggling too. Like I said, the book had a "mature" sticker on it, so it's not as if prospective readers would be unprepared for mature topics.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 23 Jul 2006 00:25:02 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 00:44:33
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| If by Mature they meant PG-13. ;) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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StromLancer
Acolyte
41 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 02:45:28
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| I remembered from the wizard's page about the Zulkirs, one of the Zulkirs, Zulkir Lauzoril was said to be an devoted family man while being an evil chief red wizard of his own art. |
Lead the war fate commands you to!
...but are you fighting the true enemy? |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 05:07:54
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He is a devoted family man, I think, according to said source. My PC's, although good, have contemplated assassinating his rivals so that he will be in charge instead. :)
Keep in mind, this is the sort of thing one might consider a mistake. :)
As for Alustriel and Drizzt. That sexual attraction is there for Alustriel, but not for Drizzt...yet. Remember, thousand year old woman with twelve kids, lots of time to have court orgies, and thinking "You know, Cattie Brie can have her turn, and then, when she's no longer around, I'll have mine. I'm an immortal chosen of Mystra. I can wait."
Things are different when you live forever.
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 07:16:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I love the idea of the evil, tyrannical necromancer-king knocking off after a hard day at the sacrificial altar and in the torture chamber and coming home to a cozy, loving domestic life with the wife and kids. When I get a chance, I'm writing a bad guy like that.
Lauzoril has a lot of that going on, though he is an enchanter rather than a necronancer (though one with a lot of undead around). |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 07:56:37
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Lauzoril has a lot of Undead around?
Hm. Odd. Necromancy was one of his banned schools. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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At your Behest
Acolyte
Germany
46 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 11:53:35
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I'm not sure as I do not have any Sourcebooks at my disposal atm but I think he devised a spell to control/charm undead so that he can wrest control from Tam's hordes of Minions [for example when Tam lets them move against him...].
Cheers! |
Beware the beast man, for he is the Devil's pawn.
Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yeah, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land.
Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, for he is the harbinger of death. |
Edited by - At your Behest on 23 Jul 2006 11:56:41 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 15:40:23
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And as gals know, undead lovers are certainly . . . tireless.
At least,
until bits start falling off.
Ahem. Sorry. My bad. It's a quote from an old song that Ed as DM once had a necromancer humming, while he worked (while we were crouched spying on him, before we "burst in" on him).
As Storm once told my character sweetly, "You haven't lived until you've had Dragonback Sex. And learned to stop worrying about falling off."
And then - - but no. I'll stop now, before I get myself in WORSE trouble. 
love to all,
THO |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 19:31:35
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Dragonback, eh?
Sounds... Terrifyingly romantic. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 22:00:32
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
And as gals know, undead lovers are certainly . . . tireless.
At least,
until bits start falling off.
Yeah, that takes all the fun out of it, doesn't it? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 22:03:58
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It seems to me that villains without a sex drive or family drive can easily end up pretty unrealistic. I know in my own writing I work on creating villains, often with families, who are just as interested in fixing interpersonal problems as in, oh, burning the world to the ground and filling it with armies of mindless corpse minions.
"If only Lord Varashiel the Foehammer had gone to family counseling, perhaps none of this would have happened." 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 22:18:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
It seems to me that villains without a sex drive or family drive can easily end up pretty unrealistic.
Well my namesake (or invented name as you will) very much has a sex drive and a family. Only reason he does not have more then 16 children is a witch cursed him to be sterile. One can look at my pitiful geocities webpage to learn more about Duke Kentinal (which should still be listed in my profile). He he truely loves his wife, thus so have has not killed her of divoiced her *G* He also loves others that live in and visits his realms. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 23:23:44
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| I definitely think that, by and large, villains need interpersonal attachments just like any other character. Although I guess that if you're writing about a lord or some such in a medieval or quasi-medieval environment, the character who engages the lord's affections need not be his spouse, since he may well have married for political or economic reasons. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 23:48:19
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| Well, one also has to consider the fact that marriages in Faerun aren't the same as marriages in the real world, and that Faerunian customs are not biased against polygamy, polyamory, or taking breaks while remaining wed (whatever one's definition of 'wed' might require). For someone married by a Sharessan, marriage might mean nothing but political and economic ties, and polyamory might be fully acceptable.. Just an example. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 07:14:38
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| One of the reasons that "The Nigbt Parade" has always been one of my favorite FR novels (weird choice, I know) is that the villains are convincingly portrayed as being in love. They actually exude more sensuality than most vixen adventurers or succubi. If you haven't this one, I highly advise it. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 07:48:51
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A, finaly another fan of that book, my favorite of all!
Night parade has always been the FR book that to me, best showed the emotions of all the characters in a rather realistic way. It is also the book I think got away with the most during the old TSR code of ethics.
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 08:41:56
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Interestingly enough, I got to thinking about the villains-in-love thing, and I actually thought that perhaps portraying them as such would be more unrealistic, psychologically, in some cases, then making them one-dimensional megalomaniacs.
How many major, powerful, influential "villains" in real life do we know of who had anything resembling a stable, well-adjusted love life?
The sheer amount of instability it takes for a person to reach certain levels of power and evil would probably be indicative of a personality that would not be entirely susceptible to what we consider to be love.
This will hardly apply to all villains, mind you, but I'd say that one has to think about basic psychological profiling when it comes to all characters, evil or otherwise, and the types of personality traits that are commonly represented together in an individual. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 24 Jul 2006 08:45:17 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 13:57:47
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In real life, serial killers and their ilk--people who do great harm to attain a sexual thrill or in accordance with an irresistible compulsion--generally don't have a "stable, well-adjusted love life."
But people who do great harm for other reasons certainly can and have. In this group, I'm including people who commit crimes for profit, violent racists and political and religious fanatics, and people who historically have simply believed that there's nothing unlawful or immoral about plundering or conquering people who are not your people (examples would be the Vikings, the Mongols, etc.) |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 15:18:30
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quote:
How many major, powerful, influential "villains" in real life do we know of who had anything resembling a stable, well-adjusted love life?
Ok -- someone had to say it. . . .
Since when does a marriage involve a "stable, well-adjusted love life?"
Ba-dum-bum. [tish!]
But seriously -- I understand what you're saying. When you've made a lifetime of stepping on the faces of the little people to get to the top, you're not necessarily the best suited to be a "family man." 'Course, that doesn't mean you *won't* have a family, just that you might not put them first.
After all, you could have a family/spouse/sex life in order to maintain some degree of peace and sanity in the midst of what you *have* to do to succeed in the world.
And none of this, of course, prevents villains from having a sex drive or just that dimension of character.
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
In this group, I'm including people who commit crimes for profit, violent racists and political and religious fanatics, and people who historically have simply believed that there's nothing unlawful or immoral about plundering or conquering people who are not your people (examples would be the Vikings, the Mongols, etc.)
Well said! Sounds like the majority of "villains" in the Realms.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 18:50:54
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quote:
In real life, serial killers and their ilk--people who do great harm to attain a sexual thrill or in accordance with an irresistible compulsion--generally don't have a "stable, well-adjusted love life."
But people who do great harm for other reasons certainly can and have. In this group, I'm including people who commit crimes for profit, violent racists and political and religious fanatics, and people who historically have simply believed that there's nothing unlawful or immoral about plundering or conquering people who are not your people (examples would be the Vikings, the Mongols, etc.)
I wouldn't consider all of those to be evil, either. :)
I guess, what I mean, is that I'd feel really weird if reading about a tyrannical, power-hungry Red Wizard going home, kissing the wife, having tea, playing with the kids in a traditional fatherly manner, etc.
It'd seem more like Disassociative Identity Disorder than an actual well-rounded person. Just something there to provide dramatic counterpoint in an unrealistic fashion.
Erik: Ah, yes, sex drive, definitely. And that's one of those cases where it WOULD be interesting to read a little more explicitely about a sexual scene in a novel. Just how in the world do such unstable/twisted/corrupt/etc. characters express physical 'love'? |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 24 Jul 2006 18:52:49 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 19:02:28
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I guess, what I mean, is that I'd feel really weird if reading about a tyrannical, power-hungry Red Wizard going home, kissing the wife, having tea, playing with the kids in a traditional fatherly manner, etc.
Which is what would make it all the more disturbing, because there ARE people like that. Many of those we think of as complete and utter monsters had wives and families and treated them much the same way.
Gosh, this is reminding me of Ghostwalker again. . . if you're interested in the family dynamics within a household of villains. . . but I shall bugger off before the +4 staff of off-topic-smiting comes into play.
Erik: Ah, yes, sex drive, definitely. And that's one of those cases where it WOULD be interesting to read a little more explicitely about a sexual scene in a novel. Just how in the world do such unstable/twisted/corrupt/etc. characters express physical 'love'?
[/quote]
I would imagine much the same way everyone else does: however it strikes their fancy.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 19:12:59
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quote:
Which is what would make it all the more disturbing, because there ARE people like that. Many of those we think of as complete and utter monsters had wives and families and treated them much the same way.
See, I'm not so sure about that. How much do we truly know about the lives of utter monsters? But I guess I'm thinking about really big, megalomaniacal dictator types... Not small-time (as in influence and such) villains... Like I'd find it weird if Manshoon or Fzoul Chembryl were these kind of people. I could see them putting up a front - or perhaps having, at one point, such a relationship in the past that went sour, leading to their current point of view.
I would just want to see some reasoning - some psychological profiling - if characters were to be presented like this. Because those 'villains' who act like this, I either wouldn't consider very villainous, or they would have unique brands of psychological disorders (sociopaths, for instance, are very good at playing roles - but then that character better be profiled as a sociopath in other situations, too).
Maybe I'm asking for too much realism. ;)
quote:
Gosh, this is reminding me of Ghostwalker again. . . if you're interested in the family dynamics within a household of villains. . . but I shall bugger off before the +4 staff of off-topic-smiting comes into play.
Does that make them truly villains... Or just antagonists with a mission. ;) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 24 Jul 2006 19:16:29 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 19:29:57
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
How much do we truly know about the lives of utter monsters?
There are lots of biographies and autobiographies out there. The nazi leaders were brought up. . . . I'm certainly not a history buff, but I think one could find examples of villains who are more than one-sided.
quote:
But I guess I'm thinking about really big, megalomaniacal dictator types... Not small-time (as in influence and such) villains... Like I'd find it weird if Manshoon or Fzoul Chembryl were these kind of people. I could see them putting up a front - or perhaps having, at one point, such a relationship in the past that went sour, leading to their current point of view.
Fzoul, I could see, though I suppose his marriage is to the church of Bane. That's his "family" as it were, and he is its father. Manshoon I think of as an alien mind -- one who has long since transcended the bounds of humanity -- but that might be because I don't recall seeing much to humanize him.
I think a number of the big villains of today -- whoever you want to call them -- have families. But there is, indeed, that sociopathic tendency in villains that would make a family life difficult. That said, it CAN be done.
quote:
I would just want to see some reasoning - some psychological profiling - if characters were to be presented like this. Because those 'villains' who act like this, I either wouldn't consider very villainous, or they would have unique brands of psychological disorders (sociopaths, for instance, are very good at playing roles - but then that character better be profiled as a sociopath in other situations, too).
We don't want to get into the villains/non-villains/heroes discussion (that was another, somewhat doomed thread), but I think it's totally possible for a villain to be sexual and/or family-oriented without jeopardizing his status as a villain. I mean, what's to stop him from doing all the evil things he does for the sake of the family (e.g. the Godfather)? And why can't he just compartmentalize, seeing his family just as kind of a fun, relaxing pasttime, beside his genocidal tendencies?
In [looks for the staff. . .] George R.R. Martin's ASoIaF, we see the motivations (some sexual and some actually LOVING in nature) of some of the most heinous villains. Does that make them not villains? They still do incredibly awful things.
In a sense, villains can either be monsters, or they can be humanized, which I think makes them more effective, more realistic, and more disturbing. And sex/family is a diabolical, insidious, and perfect way to humanize them. 
Sorry if I wandered from topic there. This thread is NOT about heroes/villains. As I understand it, the current discussion is about sex/family/love as a motivation/issue for villains.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 19:31:28
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You're right, Erik. Ahem.
But one last thing - I wouldn't consider the majority of people in A SoIaF to even be 'villains.' Antagonists, sure. ;)
I guess much of my opinion comes from the fact that my definition of 'neutral' is a lot broader than what the books (core PHB and BoVD/BoED) claims it should be. It's the Planescape in me. Subjectivity, philosophy. :)
But anyway, you seem to have gotten my idea, Erik - a lot of villains aren't going to be 'normal' family people. Not the type that were mentioned (perhaps jokingly, but still) before, where you go out, slaughter 1,000 infants, eat a baby unicorn, them come back home to a nice family dinner table... And personally I wouldn't say that the Godfather/the mob is truly indicative of a properly functioning, familial mindset. *cough* I think there's a lot of deeper psychological issues there being covered up by the facade of family love.
Sex, though. Sex is right in there, because there's nothing necessarily 'loving' attached to it.
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Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 24 Jul 2006 19:40:05 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2006 : 19:51:33
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| If you start thinking in psychological terms you will find strangenesses and dysfunctions in almost all relationships and all people. this goes both for so-called villains and heroes. I have no problem seeing many of the villains having a happy family life, as long as it stayed on their terms. Is this an "ideal happy family"? No, but pretty common non the same. could Fzoul come home to a wife (or husband for that matter) that fawned over him, had dinner ready and listened to him prattling on. Absolutely and this was the ideal half of the European middle class of the Victorian age. The problems would start the day his partner objected and went against him or when his children decided to run of with a bard or join a convent of Llira. |
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Sex & the Realms
Topic Locked
