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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 21:15:48
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It's good to have some positive feedback from the authors, Erik. Not just, "this is how I do it, deal with it," but explanations, and a show of intellectual understanding and compromise.
Thanks so much for posting on this thread!
I'll try to lower my radar a bit, I guess. ;) Sometimes it's hard to notice changes within FR books when you've been reading books for years whose tame scenes are the most hardcore that FR ones ever see.
Mace: And we've heard many times that both TSR and WotC has severely undercut page counts and drama and character interaction in favor of action, from Ed, at least. :)
That's what I like - authors and supplement designers who tell us the truth. Not sidestep around it. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 20 Jul 2006 21:17:20 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 21:40:33
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Mace: There is no FR template they hand you that mandates a minimum of x fights per novel, requires a fight every x chapters, or any such thing. Or if there is, they neglected to give it to me. I have seen a set of guidelines that says FR stories are sword-and-sorcery stories, but nothing more detailed or constraining than that.
Similarly, I've never been told to add more action, but then, for better or worse, my stuff tends to have a lot of action. Nor have I ever had what I viewed as important character bits cut so the action could stay in, but that may because I generally don't turn in a first draft that runs too long. The way I see it, they tell you how long the book's supposed to be, and that gives you the option to cut it down to size yourself before the editor ever sees it. If there are going to be cuts made simply to bring the book in at a certain word-count, I'd rather be the one who decides what they are. Not that I don't value the editor's judgment, but I'd rather he focus on whether the story is working dramatically, not on whether it can be printed on 150 sheets of paper. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 21:56:27
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| Up gratuitous, necessary character- and plot-furthering picaresque sex, violence, horror and dialogue scenes! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 02:42:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And sex.
Without the FtB. Just general terms.
All I recall is that what sex is mentioned in that trilogy is so coy and horribly obligatory that I can't count it. ("And that night, they made love" -- paraphrased, but that's even more coy than fade-to-black.)
I agree...Final Gate did have an interesting scene, but even that was fade-to-black (highlight to read SPOILER):Malkizid asks for a "token of fealty" after Sarya swears to serve him. I would say that scene was pretty coy, too, although it *does* have Sarya taking off her clothes. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 02:46:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
First off, I hope it came across in my previous post that I'm all for intrigue, cool characters, romance, wonder, mystery, horror, humor, and pretty much anything that can make a story interesting. I hope readers find all those elements in my stuff. It's just that I think action is integral to the genre, and when it's well done, I find it pretty darn entertaining.
You said it right there...it has to be "well done". Of course, that mean different things to different people. Personally, I don't like it when fights drag on for too long, or if the weapon moves are very highly detailed like in Salvatore's books. I understand that plenty of people DO like really detailed swordfights, but oftentimes they just cause my eyes to glaze over.
That being said, I honestly like the way you do your own action scenes. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 05:06:23
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I wouldn't mind a little more poetry in the action scenes, myself - something that, well, rang more magical. Not just describing magic happening, but being read in a magical way. If that makes sense.
But, uh, that doesn't really have to do with sex, does it?
Hey, at least I said the word in the post... :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 05:09:40
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| Thank you, Rin, I appreciate you saying that. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 05:10:32
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| Thank you, Rin, I appreciate you saying that. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 05:24:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand.
One of the reasons my reading of Dragonlance trickled down tremendously and I turned to the Realms as a game setting and a reading pastime is that DL didn't really evolve after the Chronicles...
That's the thing I liked about Dragonlance. I prefer small stories and backward glances that more explain than change the present. As to the amount of action: I myself have no great love for drawn out fight scenes, as this generally tend to bore me. When I look back at the early 90's TSR books I think these had the best balance when it came to pacing, fights and such. The problem with these were of course the old rules of conduct.
As to the Sword and Sorcery genre. Well there has to be both Swords and Sorcery, but if you take a look at Vance, Leiber, Moorcock and even Howards originals the fighting itself is rarely given much space. Build ups of excitement, high pace? Yes at times, but many of these stories were almost without any form of violence.
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 05:30:35
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| I really, really love Moorcock's writing. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 05:41:15
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Well, then you should have something to do for the next couple of years as the man has written his share of books. fantasy, Science fiction, "serious" literature; there is more than enough variations here.
Have you seen the Moorcock's Miscellany page? If there is anything you want to know about with Moorcock that's the place to go. Moorcocks own postings are usually as entertaining as his books.
Sorry for going of topic again. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 06:57:15
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Oohh.. That's awesome! Thanks for telling me!
Now, I will let this thread get back on topic, if it's not worn out. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 15:47:09
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I think talking about sex & the Realms more is like beating a dead horse at the moment, each of us said our piece and now we need to see how things turn out.
But that's just me |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 17:20:14
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I wouldn't mind a little more poetry in the action scenes, myself
Roses are red,
Violents are blue,
My sword is shiny,
and cuts the hell out of you!
How's that?   |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 18:23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I think talking about sex & the Realms more is like beating a dead horse at the moment, each of us said our piece and now we need to see how things turn out.
But that's just me
Amen to that  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 21:14:11
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| Bravo, Wooly! Woot woot! |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 00:13:43
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Wooly, you are an evil man...now I am thinking about 'poetic' battle scenes...
And then he whirled his sword around
His neighbor's throat as mark it found
The blood it splattered
A life was shattered
But, alas, the moral is
When swinging at monsters take care not to miss |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 04:59:13
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| I suppose I should ask this since Final Gate is getting singled out, but didn't anyone skip ahead to see how she reacted post encounter? I did. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 05:13:57
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I think that in the end it all boils down to doing the scene well, regardless if it's a combat, battle or sex scene. My experience with D&D novels over the years has lead me to believe, generally speaking, that the combat scenes are too long, the battle scenes are about right, and the sex scenes are non-existent or juvenile. Most problematic for me is that the characters usually seem somewhat contrived & 2-dimensional, and the plots often have holes large enough to drive tractor trailers through. I have to agree with those that have said that D&D books seem to mostly be about the LONG combat scenes which all too often seem to squeeze out the plot instead of advancing it. Having read thousands of fantasy novels in my time I've become quite picky over the years. I rarely read or buy D&D books any more. Most of them just don't measure up. But I grew up playing the 1st ed version of the game, read and greatly enjoyed the original DL trilogy in high school, and have many fond D&D related memories. So every once in awhile I'll feel a bit nostalgic and pick up a FR book up. Usually I'm disappointed. Every time I hear that WOTC is taking the line in a more adult direction my ears perk up. But they've been taking baby steps that to me are barely even noticable, so I'm not going to hold my breath.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 06:10:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Thank you, Rin, I appreciate you saying that.
You're welcome! |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 06:16:04
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I wouldn't mind a little more poetry in the action scenes, myself...
I wrote a poem in honor of Seiveril Miritar. But it's mean-spirited, so I probably shouldn't post it here. 
Anyway, as for the topic...I was thinking about the Book of Exalted Deeds (that I mentioned earlier) and the Book of Vile Darkness, and how their content relates to a wider issue...
Isn't it kind of sad that the Book of Vile Darkness can talk pretty frankly rape, necrophilia, sadism, masochism, soul-harming, and other bizarre and/or immoral acts, and yet the Book of Exalted Deeds can't even mention that a certain NPC might be in a (loving) bisexual relationship? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 15:04:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Presumably the reader already knows what healthy, normal, satisfying sex is like, so why do I need to tell him?
Go to GenCon and tell me afterwards if you still hold this opinion. 
Wrong!!!!  Hahahahaha, hilarious though. |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 15:38:59
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Hey, did Drizzt and Alustriel ever get it on? For some reason I always thought Drizzt went to Silverymoon for a booty call. Also, Alsutriel does have a son that is an awesome swordsman, right?  |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 17:57:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
Hey, did Drizzt and Alustriel ever get it on? For some reason I always thought Drizzt went to Silverymoon for a booty call. Also, Alsutriel does have a son that is an awesome swordsman, right?
She has twelve sons, and some daughters as well. But none of them are from Drizzt. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 18:31:41
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Other than Akabur in the Fidner Stone trilogy, has there ever been mention of a character with multiple spouses? Or even an Adventurer with spouses acting as an adventure team?
Not sex, but related... |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 18:31:46
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| Rino, that's a really amusing point. I think it's because it drives possibly too close to home... |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 18:41:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Other than Akabur in the Fidner Stone trilogy, has there ever been mention of a character with multiple spouses? Or even an Adventurer with spouses acting as an adventure team?
If my memory is correct some of the Knights of Myth Drannor are married to each other. I also seem to remember some other members of various adventuring companies mentioned briefly in 2ed. products. There isn't to many examples, and out of the Knights not many much talked about.
I have always wondered about the family life of the various villains; some of these must have a wife and kids, but outside of Semmemon and the half-elf I for some reason can not remember the name of right now, the information is sparse. |
Edited by - Jorkens on 22 Jul 2006 18:42:25 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 19:21:50
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It is sad, Rinonalyrna.
Florin and Dove are married, as are Jhessail and Merith. There are other examples -- it's not a rare thing for the danger and close companionship of adventuring to bring such unions. Treating adventurers as whole people rather than just monster-slayers adds a lot of depth to roleplaying. Polygamy isn't usual in the Heartlands. Powerful villains are liable to take temporary bed-partners (consorts at best) rather than spouses, except for political reasons. |
Edited by - Faraer on 22 Jul 2006 19:23:51 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 19:52:10
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| I love the idea of the evil, tyrannical necromancer-king knocking off after a hard day at the sacrificial altar and in the torture chamber and coming home to a cozy, loving domestic life with the wife and kids. When I get a chance, I'm writing a bad guy like that. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 19:54:44
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| The dying Zhentil Keep aristocrat in "So High a Price" comes to mind as an example of a probably evil character who not only has a wife but loves her. |
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Sex & the Realms
Topic Locked
