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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 07:30:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
"The purple-headed warrior?" Poetry! Genius! I hope he did battle with a moist, pink adversary.
ROFL
All right, this gives the monster purple worm a whole new meaning.
The problem is as Winterfox described, if it's too 'artsy' it becomes laughable, too detailed too pornographical; best example for the latter is the one Clive Barker novel I read "Coldheart Canyon".
Maybe the actual bonking is reserved for the fade-to-black stuff, but if treated in a mature fashion the foreplay and maybe the aftermath should be part of the prose.
@ Winterfox: No, I don't agree with the statement that sex should not be in novels. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 07:53:52
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Sex is as all other subjects, it depends on the quality of the writing.
There is an enormous difference between, for example an Anais Nin short story and the obligatory sex scene on page x by the last mediocre writer. I would have no trouble with a collection of erotic Realms stories, just as I would have no problem with a collection of Realms children's, detective, horror or any other sub genre, if it was well written and faithful to the realms. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 14:56:15
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Which is as good a cue as any to remind younger scribes of what Wizards Books Department (oop, sorry, they're calling it the "Publishing Group" these days) let slip at a long-ago GenCon: the top-secret, long-delayed Realms short story collection project they've been "privately" assembling:
EDTIME STORIES.
(No, I'm NOT making this up. Many drinks have been hoisted in dimly-lit nooks, late of GenCon nights, as Ed and various WotC editors contemplated this project. Peter Archer thought of it, and the title, I believe.)
love to all,
THO |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 15:22:09
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| That's.. Hilarious. :D |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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bobwriggins
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 00:45:03
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As the father of nine year and six year old daughters, I would love to see the EDTIME STORIES published. And maybe an adult version for daddy |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 00:57:51
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It would be a rather short short-story collection for your daughters if it primarily deals with sex...ahem...errr...courtly love I mean...
Or you'd have one rated for kids and a "juicier" one (pun was unintentional, I swear!) for mature readers. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 01:58:13
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"Edtime stories"...very cute! |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 15:13:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Someone once said to me that all sex scenes in fiction are, to some extent or another, gratuitous. Everything can be dealt with offstage and via fade-to-blacks, and then cutting to the "morning after" post-coital dialogue.
[snip]
I'm curious, though. Does anyone agree with the viewpoint I mentioned above? That sex is unnecessary at all?
I think it's more helpful to look at whether sex "can be" necessary -- or, better, significant. It all depends on the character, plot, and writing. I mean, how can Jacqueline Carey write about Phedre (this being in her Kushiel series) without talking about sex?
And also, how is the FtB technique not sex? Sex still happens. The mind of the reader often describes things much better than the pen of the author.
In the strictest sense, sex is never necessary, sure -- but neither is combat, dialogue, or even fiction at all. (Necessary for what?) It's all a matter of degrees. Sex is part of telling a story, and when last I checked, that's what we writers do.
In order to have fiction, why wouldn't you have sex? Sex happens. People have a drive for it, just as they do for food, drink, and shelter. In a sense, your story could suffer from being too chaste. *
And when it is done, it should be done tastefully, adroitly, and erotic-aly. Because, I mean, THAT'S the point.
Then again (as I believe Dan mentioned), at times crude and emotionless or crude and "pr0nographic" sex is just as excellent a characterization tool as hearty erotica. *
* Also, consider the source: this coming from an author who's written 1+ sex scenes (most of them being FtB) in everything he's published so far.
** How do I differentiate "pr0n" from "erotica"? The latter focuses on the emotion (which, to an extent, is the role of fiction, conveying emotion), the former on the parts involved ("ye olde purp-heade warrior and yon bonnie pinke lass").
quote:
the top-secret, long-delayed Realms short story collection project they've been "privately" assembling:
EDTIME STORIES.
That's. . . so. . . awesome! 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 18:11:26
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I've noticed that in my own stuff, healthy, normal, satisfying sex tends to be presented in the FtB style. And unless you're writing erotica, that approach strikes me as fairly reasonable. Presumably the reader already knows what healthy, normal, satisfying sex is like, so why do I need to tell him? Since I'm usually trying to bring the story home at an editorially specified length, why not save those precious words to describe somethng else?
Conversely, in my stuff, the sex scenes that happen onstage tends to be the ones where the sex is going horribly wrong in some way. Because the plot requires that the reader witness that. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 18:18:14
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What's curious about the whole notion is, still, that sex appears to be handled offstage unless it is pivotal in the way it is...well...performed. Combat could be handled the same way, since it tends to not do anything for a character, again unless it is pivotal to the plot.
If sex had the same...um...importance in fantasy/Realms literature we would have either more sex (considering there hardly is any it would be a LOT more) to balance out the violence or we'd only have pivotal encounters of either the sexual or the violent kind.
That violence in all its gory splendor is much more accepted in society than the very human and mostly gentle and tender side of humanity never ceases to amaze me... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 18:24:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Presumably the reader already knows what healthy, normal, satisfying sex is like, so why do I need to tell him?
Go to GenCon and tell me afterwards if you still hold this opinion.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 18:39:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Presumably the reader already knows what healthy, normal, satisfying sex is like, so why do I need to tell him?
Go to GenCon and tell me afterwards if you still hold this opinion.
Wooly, thou art bad...prolly not wrong tho... then again a guy who graduated with me and now is a judge might have only read about sex, too... or spent ... *shuts up* |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 18:45:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Since I'm usually trying to bring the story home at an editorially specified length, why not save those precious words to describe somethng else?
I'd argue that the same is true for most combat sequences. I've found really, really few satisfactorily meaningful, essential-to-plot, characterization-advancing action scenes in fantasy fiction. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 18:46:40
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I think that even normal, healthy sex could be well-depicted still between significant characters - at least once. As Erik pointed out, it can help to intensify the emotion between characters.
Otherwise, I agree; it could be kept off-stage as much as unnecessary "normal" violence can. After all, a certain amount of romance has been around in fantasy/mythological literature for just as long as combat has. I just think that America's "sex bad!" mindset has made the romance fade out and the combat intensify.
Of course, this isn't really surprising in the D&D genre, at least, considering in 1E and 3E it's focused much more around combat and statistics and numbers... Which aren't terribly conducive to sexual or romantic encounters.
Or... ARE they?
EDIT: Aw, look at me and Winterfox being on the same thought pattern! :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 20 Jul 2006 18:47:24 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 19:12:12
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Otherwise, I agree; it could be kept off-stage as much as unnecessary "normal" violence can. After all, a certain amount of romance has been around in fantasy/mythological literature for just as long as combat has. I just think that America's "sex bad!" mindset has made the romance fade out and the combat intensify.
And yet unnecessary combat persists. There're a lot of Realms novels where I skim a combat scene and think, "Why isn't this waste of space and trees being used on, I don't know, meaningful interaction and plot instead?"
quote:
EDIT: Aw, look at me and Winterfox being on the same thought pattern! :)
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Your uniqueness shall be added to the collective. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 19:15:23
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quote:
And yet unnecessary combat persists. There're a lot of Realms novels where I skim a combat scene and think, "Why isn't this waste of space and trees being used on, I don't know, meaningful interaction and plot instead?"
Probably because the majority of people reading D&D novels like hack-and-slash, sadly. Disregard the fact that FR is supposed to be more of a high fantasy setting than a sword-and-sorcerery one. People want combat! But people want sex, too, so.. Huh. Who can say?
quote:
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Your uniqueness shall be added to the collective.
Exterminate! Exterminate! |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 19:19:29
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If I were writing erotica, I'd put in sex scenes because to my mind, sex scenes are, to a significant degree, what the genre is about. I can't imagine that readers who think, I want to read erotica but for God's sake, let's not have any sex scenes, are very thick on the ground.
Thinking along the same lines: To my mind, sword-and-sorcery stories are action-adventure stories, and fights are, to some degree, what the action-adventure genre is about. Thus, while I respect your point of view, I have trouble getting on the same wavelength with you folks who say, give me the Forgotten Realms but let's eighty-six all these dreary fight scenes. I don't understand why you'd choose to read action-adventure if you don't want to see action.
Now admittedly, fights can be presented effectively or otherwise. Fights can be integral to the advancement of the plot or they can feel just arbitrarily thrown in. And of course, to be worthwhile, any story, action-adventure or otherwise, has to consist of a whole lot of elements in balance. It can't all just be dudes beating on each others.
I fully agree with all of that. But still, I'm just sayin'. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 19:24:48
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I would rather see more romance and character development than sword-and-sorcery, personally. Because that's what the Forgotten Realms is about - that's why some of us are reading Forgotten Realms, at least.
Er, sorry if that sounds offensive. It's not supposed to be! I'm just trying to get across what some of us see the Forgotten Realms to be, which is a little more in line with Ed's vision than the one that WotC is publishing these days.
The Forgotten Realms that I know and love is one of manipulation, court heralds, seductions, romances, plotting, lies, research in dimly-lit libraries, mind games, etc. All of the sword-and-sorcery helps to highlight the fantasy nature of the world, but it isn't what the world is about.
To some of us, FR isn't action-adventure, I guess. It's high fantasy, like George RR Martin's works, Jacqueline Carey's, and the like. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 20 Jul 2006 19:27:41 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 19:30:35
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And note that, I think, the above sentiments apply to many of the females in the fantasy market. And considering how much female readers vastly outnumber male readers, in fiction and otherwise, perhaps WotC should think about appealing a bit more to this audience, as well.
It'd make some fans very happy (particularly those who enjoy the more intrigue-laden parts of the Realms), and it would make them a lot of money! |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 19:43:50
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I can do without the dusty library research part...to read a chapter about a protagtonist reading books is ... well inane.
Action-adventure, hell yes, Richard. But I think it is the variety thatwe talk about, I don't think anyone would want the Realms to be turned into a fantasy softcore thingy. Yea, epic, climatic battles are very much needed, but heroes getting ambushed by orcs just because the hack-factor over the last say 20 pages went down by 33% isn't what I'd call a necessesary fight. If romance is involved in the interaction then let it play out just as a climatic battle would, UNTIL the FTB before they (whoever they may be) get down to business.
I'd just like people in a fantasy world behave more like...well, people |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 19:48:03
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quote:
I can do without the dusty library research part...to read a chapter about a protagtonist reading books is ... well inane.
I'd like to read it, if we got an idea of what the reader was reading about. :)
But I'm a big physics/classics geek who read science books at age 5, so, eh. *Shrug* |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 19:59:00
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The FtB technique is tried and true. I've used it extensively in my own stuff, and I plan to in the future. And it's not just for sex -- it's for combat, or revealing of secrets, or whatever. What a move!
For the opinion that action sequences should disappear from these novels: Forgotten Realms is billed, within Wizards and without, as Sword & Sorcery. And whatever that means to you, that's gotta have swords. And Sorcery.
Action's not going away, and if it did I wouldn't read it. Or write it. 100%, RLB.
I agree with the cry for expansion, though, and believe that writing that's only about hack-n-slash is, well, lame. I love reading romance and intrigue and manipulation and seduction. This comes out in my writing. But there's fighting too, and I don't see anything WRONG with that. If one doesn't want to read action, why read fantasy action adventure?
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
And note that, I think, the above sentiments apply to many of the females in the fantasy market. And considering how much female readers vastly outnumber male readers, in fiction and otherwise, perhaps WotC should think about appealing a bit more to this audience, as well.
It'd make some fans very happy (particularly those who enjoy the more intrigue-laden parts of the Realms), and it would make them a lot of money!
Well, the concept, I guess, is that they'll eliminate / alienate a lot of their fans as well. For every fan they make very happy, they'll be letting down two who go to them for the action. Mathematically speaking, this means that while they would make money from fans who are very happy and possibly new fans, they would love more money from existing fans who would condemn the evolution as "boring" or "RP-crap."
(And recruiting new fans into as game-related setting isn't always easy. I've had a hell of a time trying to convince people that MY stuff isn't all about hack-n-slash, and it seems that a number of fantasy readers, online and off, just ASSUME it is, and that it leaves all this romance and emotion to the wayside and is thus crap.
Gah! There. I'll cut myself off before I start ranting.)
The point is, There is indeed a trend in D&D-related fiction for hack-n-slash. I figure it might be because there's a trend in the D&D GAME for hack-n-slash. The current incarnation of the game seems (to me, at least) all about combat, really, and it leaves the social interaction and "role-playing" largely up to the players. And what's going to happen? Some (not all) players are going to give all that a miss, and just do combat, 'cuz what engages gamers? Combat.
In a world where everything else is "flavor text" and anyone who cares about non-combat in an online game is an "RP [nerd]" (insult changed for good taste), what do you expect?
So that's what they expect in their fiction, and that seems to be WotC's marketing concept. They're a GAME company, so their biggest body of fans consists of gamers. No matter how many more females read fantasy than males, I think you'd have a hard time convincing WotC that the majority of their readers aren't also gamers, and statistics will show that gamers enjoy the action in novels more than any other part.
However, that doesn't mean that romance and intrigue and all that other wonderful stuff (like sex, for instance) don't belong. They truly and honestly do. I just think that we're not going to get away from combat. Ever.
That's why we need a balance, and that's what I try to do in my writing.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 20:00:49
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
I can do without the dusty library research part...to read a chapter about a protagtonist reading books is ... well inane.
I'd like to read it, if we got an idea of what the reader was reading about. :)
But I'm a big physics/classics geek who read science books at age 5, so, eh. *Shrug*
Have you read The Last Mythal trilogy, then? There's a lot of research going on there.
And sex.
Without the FtB. Just general terms.
Just sayin'.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 20:07:06
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I have more issues with the Last Mythal trilogy than I do any other trilogy to date. *cough*
I'll leave it at that - but thank you for pointing out how it would apply to the topic at hand. :)
EDIT: And mind you, I agree with most of your post above. It's another one of those self-perpetuating problems (ah, if only I could do that with energy). WotC doesn't think they'll get more sales from those kind of books, so they're not going to make them; so that in the rare cases they do make them, they are appealing to buyers who are not used to them, so they get lower sales; so they figure that they don't sell well... And so on.
Vicious, sad cycle.
But, oddly enough, in the past 11 years, I've known and played with almost as many female gamers as I have male gamers - and far more females online, because roleplaying online is more writing-intensive.
Obviously WotC isn't ALL about "playing it safe" - see the Mysteries of the Moonsea format. They've said specifically it was an experiment. I just wish that they'd do the same with novels, a bit. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 20 Jul 2006 20:10:48 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 20:17:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Thus, while I respect your point of view, I have trouble getting on the same wavelength with you folks who say, give me the Forgotten Realms but let's eighty-six all these dreary fight scenes. I don't understand why you'd choose to read action-adventure if you don't want to see action.
I'm not speaking for anyone else, but personally I'm hardly condemning all fight scenes at pointless. It just so happens that eighty percent of them is horribly dull and add little to the story, filler-esque, or could have been summarized in one paragraph rather than dragged on for twelve pages. As there are pointless sex scenes (just ask any ex-fan of LK Hamilton!), so too there are pointless combat sequences. A lot of time, I feel action scenes read like random encounters in an RPG.
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I can do without the dusty library research part...to read a chapter about a protagtonist reading books is ... well inane.
It depends on how it's done. If it's a backdrop for other things, like an interesting conversation, you hit two birds with one stone -- you show a character doing his/her daily job and potentially advance inter-character dynamics or convey plot details. Hell, it's possible to make a character doing bureaucratic paperwork interesting.
As well, the research could be really, really nifty and pertains to cool theories. See Isaac Dan der Grimnebulin in Perdido Street Station and, actually, the rest of the book for people just going about their daily lives (without fighting anything until much, much later) but remaining absolutely fascinating because the world-building is so good and the things they do are so imaginative. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 20:18:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And sex.
Without the FtB. Just general terms.
All I recall is that what sex is mentioned in that trilogy is so coy and horribly obligatory that I can't count it. ("And that night, they made love" -- paraphrased, but that's even more coy than fade-to-black.) |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 20:18:56
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First off, I hope it came across in my previous post that I'm all for intrigue, cool characters, romance, wonder, mystery, horror, humor, and pretty much anything that can make a story interesting. I hope readers find all those elements in my stuff. It's just that I think action is integral to the genre, and when it's well done, I find it pretty darn entertaining.
With regard to the issue of gratuitous or excessive fight scenes, I think we've all reacted that way to a combat sequence in one novel or another, but as is so often the case, redundancy can be in the eye of the beholder. Have you guys read Three Hearts and Three Lions, by Poul Anderson? A very good fantasy novel that's largely episodic in structure. The hero encounters and overcomes various challenges on his way to the fulfillment of the quest. Strictly in terms of crossing the finish line, one or more of those incidents could be axed without trashing the story logic and turning the novel into gibberish. But they all have entertainment value, so how would it benefit the reader to yank them out? |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 20:23:17
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I guess it's because some are more entertained than others by certain incidents. :)
And the current reading populace happens to be entertained with such things, so I guess I find myself once more in the minority.
I'm just glad that the prologue to Dragons of Dwarven Depths was so wonderful. No combat. All plotting and intrigue. I loved it. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 21:11:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
All I recall is that what sex is mentioned in that trilogy is so coy and horribly obligatory that I can't count it. ("And that night, they made love" -- paraphrased, but that's even more coy than fade-to-black.)
Well put, Winterfox. (Not that I agree or disagree, but I bow to your opinion.) I guess I was just nudging us back on topic from my post, which was about pointing out to Dan where he might find that "characters deep in dusty tomes" kind of action.
One can also go to that short segment in Fellowship of the Ring. In fact, do.
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
First off, I hope it came across in my previous post that I'm all for intrigue, cool characters, romance, wonder, mystery, horror, humor, and pretty much anything that can make a story interesting. I hope readers find all those elements in my stuff. It's just that I think action is integral to the genre, and when it's well done, I find it pretty darn entertaining.
Absolutely, RLB, and absolutely echoed.
Dan -- to address the "vicious, sad cycle":
I do think Wizards is on the change, but the steps are baby ones, so small they might fly under the radar (or, so as not to mix metaphors, wander under the baby safety gate).
Say what you want about WotSQ, but it WAS different and does reflect a move toward more sex in the novels. PSK's Erevis Cale is a good waypost as well -- even without sex, since there isn't any -- and that he's coming out with a second trilogy speaks to its popularity. I haven't looked at MotM myself, but your appraisal sounds promising.
And there are some of us writers who think the way you do and are moving from the ACTION ACTION ACTION stereotype, to ACTION ROMANCE INTRIGUE SUSPENSE GOODNESS!
I'm not naming any names other than I have, one way or the other, but the action/action/action stereotype does not hold true in every -- or even nearly every -- case.
Myself -- and here's the gods and goddesses' honest truth -- I enjoy most the interpersonal relationships, whether it comes across in fighting, dialogue, intrigue, plotting, or sex. I love it when novels -- whether it's through combat or smoldering love making, passionate romance or heartrending betrayal, or just simple little everyday interactions -- and they make you believe.
I just try to make my characters real, and I try to tell real stories. Not "realistic," per se, but "real" in a deeper sense: meaningful and moving, that you can connect to. True.
That's all any of us can really do in fiction.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 21:14:10
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One of the reasons my reading of Dragonlance trickled down tremendously and I turned to the Realms as a game setting and a reading pastime is that DL didn't really evolve after the Chronicles...
Back to the topic. Yes, fights can be entertaining, but to, and I'm exaggerating here, read about every blasted random encounter while the interaction and story grinds to a halt isn't making it any more entertaining.
I wonder, is there something like a checklist on how many combats a WOTC novel needs? Please don't take this the wrong way, Richard and Erik, it's merely me being interested if there is such a thing as I got the feeling that plots were explicitly shortened to add more action.
I remember asking Nancy Varian Berberick at GenCon if there had been scenes cut from Dalamar the Dark because it felt like there were. She verified this... maybe in that case it was a page count thingy, but to sacrifice plot-depth and character development for combat ... I dunno ... it just feels wrong. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Sex & the Realms
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