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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 17:12:01
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Hmm. Do you think, where the fantasy and sci-fi genres is concerned, that there're more male than female readers, though? It's a stereotype, I know, and there're certainly quite a few women posting here, but while the domination of women in writing circles is evident, I'm still not sure if the same is true for reading circles. (But on the other hand, compiling such a statistic would be pretty ambiguous anyway. Harry Potter alone -- which most people would agree is fantasy, even if the author herself said she wasn't aware of the fact at first -- likely has fans in nearly all demographics, and the series by itself tilts the scale insanely.) I think there are as many, say, male fans of LOTR as there are female (possibly more), but I rarely see them in fan discussions, let alone on fanfiction archives. Then again, fan activists are the vocal minority.
But I'm wandering rapidly off-topic. Again. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 21:30:10
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Nah, this is interesting.  Personally, I'd say there are either about as many females who read fantasy (don't know about sci-fi) as their are males who read the genre, or that the ratio is something like 60%/40%.
I've never thought of the fantasy genre as being a "guy thing" (or very gender specific at all), although like I said I have no hard statistics here. Also, consider that WotC's novels and even sourcebooks of recent years haven't been overly "male-centric". So either WotC is trying to woo more female consumers to the table...or they know they have a very mixed audience already. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 21:42:44
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| To be sure, I don't necessarily think of fantasy as a guy-thing, either, but it carries with it -- ever so slightly -- the association with "geekery" (geekhood? Geekdom?), hence my wondering. Particular FR novels, which is even more so because it's a D&D setting. There're still divisions among sub-genres, though, and some almost certainly have more female readers than male (though lke you, I've nothing to back this up, either). The Anita Blake books, as mentioned somewhere in the forum, are more likely to attract female readers (along with other similar fantasy-chick fiction, like the Women of the Otherworld series, or even EC's own Changeling Detective). |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 22:23:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
To be sure, I don't necessarily think of fantasy as a guy-thing, either, but it carries with it -- ever so slightly -- the association with "geekery" (geekhood? Geekdom?), hence my wondering. Particular FR novels, which is even more so because it's a D&D setting.
True--D&D as a game has for the most part long been a "guy-thing" even if the FR setting was never meant to be (as I see it). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 22:24:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
To be sure, I don't necessarily think of fantasy as a guy-thing, either, but it carries with it -- ever so slightly -- the association with "geekery" (geekhood? Geekdom?), hence my wondering. Particular FR novels, which is even more so because it's a D&D setting. There're still divisions among sub-genres, though, and some almost certainly have more female readers than male (though lke you, I've nothing to back this up, either). The Anita Blake books, as mentioned somewhere in the forum, are more likely to attract female readers (along with other similar fantasy-chick fiction, like the Women of the Otherworld series, or even EC's own Changeling Detective).
I don't think fantasy carries the connotation of "geekery" with it as much as roleplaying games do. My guess is that more women read books from the fantasy section of the bookstore than men, game-related fiction included. A lot of people probably don't even know that some of the books are associated with games. Fantasy has a romantic aspect to it - castles, beautiful ageless elves, brawny dashing heroes, strong independent heroines, gorgeous forested scenery, and... courtliness. A lot of men probably enjoy the large-scale wars and battles, world-near-ending adventures, medieval style arms & armor, and always-beautiful chain-mail-bikini-wearing-babes (ok, we may be moving somewhat away from this... perhaps). These are of course stereotypes, but take it from me (as the PR & Marketing manager of a small fantasy publishing company), stereotypes are the bread and butter of marketing.
Me, I like all of the above and a whole lot more. I wish there was a lot more sex and sexual innuendo in stories. It need not be graphic, just bawdy enough and humorous enough to color a story. When used as a counterpoint to serious and dire threads, it can make for a very enjoyable reading experience. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 00:29:58
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I really enjoy a little bit of everything in my fantasy books, though I must say that typical war/battle/etc. scenes kind of bore me, unless there's an interesting twist to them in some way. I read a wide genre of fantasy, I think - but many of the D&D books are too hack-and-slash for me. 3E ones, anyway.. Or perhaps I've just coincidentally read the hack-and-slash ones.
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Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 04:29:20
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| I'll say this, I saw the Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms novels on bookshelves both in libraries and bookstore LONG before I even knew what Dungeons & Dragons was, long before I even knew that either was associated with Dungeons & Dragons. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 02:38:04
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I really enjoy a little bit of everything in my fantasy books, though I must say that typical war/battle/etc. scenes kind of bore me, unless there's an interesting twist to them in some way.
I soooo agree with that. And I've heard such comments from many people (male and female) so I don't think it's just a "woman thing".
I think for the most part, battles are more fun to watch (like in a movie) than to read about. I prefer battles that have a point--that is, not just there for "filler" or as a nod to the novel's D&D roots--are not overly detailed, and don't last for too long. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 18 Jul 2006 02:38:17 |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 05:11:41
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That's why for D+D novels I prefer stories of small unit confrontations where the stakes are more personal and the stories of the characters matter. What's a better scene? The Battle of Hoth or the swordfight at the end of Rob Roy?
The Battle of Hoth is huge. It has tons of overwhelming special effects, costly descriptive effects, and tons of things happening.
In the swordfight at the end of Rob Roy, so much is at stake between just two people, and it really shows in the nature of the confrontation. Any confrontation with minimal combatants is going to be about the people more than it is about the battle, and that is what makes things like that really great. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11808 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 15:24:44
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>>In the swordfight at the end of Rob Roy, so much is at stake between just two people, and it >>really shows in the nature of the confrontation. Any confrontation with minimal combatants >>is going to be about the people more than it is about the battle, and that is what makes >>things like that really great.
OMG, that is my favorite movie of all time. When Rob finally finishes off the "active" villain (for there were so many layers of villainy, it was great), and the way he did it. By the gods, lad, makes me proud of my Irish blood!!!
Phillip Wallace aka Sleyvas |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 17:22:40
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By all means, sleyvas, be proud of your Irish heritage, but I'm pretty sure Rob Roy was a Scot.
After cranking out my share of action-adventure stories, I can tell you that for me at least, duels betwen two guys or fights between small groups are much easier to depict in a dramatically satisfying way than are battles between armies. The problem, though, is that if we never have armies clashing, we greatly limit the sorts of stories we can tell. I'm not willing to accept that limitation, so I'm trying to learn how to write big battles in a way that makes for good fiction.
An alternative, I suppose, might be to have the big battles happen offstage, but I'm inclined to worry that will come off an unsatisfying cheat. I remember some years ago reading a highly acclaimed fantasy novel that's written this way, and for a pretty good reason, too. The viewpoint characters are the female characters, who in this culture don't go off to war. So they're not present to witness the battles. But even so, I found it maddening that huge events, events that in large measure determined the outcome of the plot, were not actually shown. Maybe it's just because I have unsophisticated tastes and tend to enjoy fights, chases, and all that kind of thing, but still, that was my response as a reader. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 17:58:30
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How about less battle/war-stories and more actual adventure stories? Or stories where the adventurers are doing actual adventuring things during major wars, and less fighting in the frontlines?
Like in the Dragonlance Chronicles, which are pretty much the epitome of adventurers-in-a-war D&D novels, and the best I've read yet.
Or, less war stories altogether? I'd love to see more FR intrigue, plotting, manipulation, and research and detective stories - which is what FR was designed for originally, not largescale wars. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 19:14:46
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I don't mind large-scale battles, but I've usually followed the concept of them being reduced to the personal, rather than the abstract. Conflict is the stuff of stories, whether it's physical, mental, magical, emotional, or what.
The concept runs like this: If you want to read about tactics and the clash of giant armies, you read historical accounts of famous battles. In order to keep big battles interesting, you need to keep in mind what keeps novels interesting: emotional involvement. Thus, when a big battle happens, focusing on a small body of characters we actually care about is so much more effective than the panorama battle shot (at least in novels -- movies are different).
Aye? 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 18 Jul 2006 19:15:41 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 19:38:22
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Agreed, Erik. :) If I want to see combat, then I want it to be more than just clashing of swords and spells. In the 3E novels I've read lately, there seems to be very little emotion in the diction.. And not much creative writing, either. I'd like to see an Elven bladesinger losing himself in the Weave, in feeling it flow through him, and using his blade as a singing, humming extension of the Weave itself... When he's practicing bladesong.
Yes, I do like dramatic writing, and figurative speech. It helps to make more idiosyncratic the material you're reading.
But, still, I'd like even more to just read about less combat. That's due to personal tastes, obviously; in the longest-running AD&D game I was in, we went several games in a row without rolling a single die, for combat or otherwise. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 19:48:48
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Cough,
Can we get this back on topic? If you's want to discuss battles, make a new scroll. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 20:28:15
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Sorry!
Sex over violence!
W00t! |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 22:19:54
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Someone once said to me that all sex scenes in fiction are, to some extent or another, gratuitous. Everything can be dealt with offstage and via fade-to-blacks, and then cutting to the "morning after" post-coital dialogue.
I disagree, because while it's not essential per se (but then, neither is combat, showing characters planning, or flavoring prose with anything but the bare-boned facts), it can do things that other kinds of scenes can't. (Showing how two characters interact at a certain moment, showing characters' personalities, and so forth.)
But then, it's hard, I think, to maintain a balance between being tasteful and being pornographic (unless you're trying to be pr0ny, of course). Too many euphemisms, and it becomes flowery and laughable; too clinical, and it becomes too dry; too many vulgar slangs, and it turns pr0ny. There's also the question of time and place. Gratuitous nudity and sex are just as annoying as gratuitous anything else -- a waste of paper it's printed on where actual plot and characterization could've been written instead. Personally, I prefer explicit but not too explicit written sex (and avoidance of mentioning genitals, because face it, the vulgar terms sometimes break the mood and euphemisms like "the purple-headed warrior" just induce laughter).
The other extreme, which I can't stand, is horribly coy things like "...and they sat together on the edge of a bed one morning." It makes me want to roll my eyes; there're children's books with clearer implications of sex than this.
I'm curious, though. Does anyone agree with the viewpoint I mentioned above? That sex is unnecessary at all? |
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Sarephim
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 22:23:17
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| I have no problem with sexual oriented scenes... however when it gets too detailed... I cannot help but feel somewhat awkward. As if I was stumbling in one something I had no right to... yes I know I'm weird. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 22:24:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarephim
I have no problem with sexual oriented scenes... however when it gets too detailed... I cannot help but feel somewhat awkward.
I only feel that way when watching a movie with a sex scene in it. While one of my parents, or both, is sitting next to me. Ick.
What's your definition of "too detailed", anyway? |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 22:25:15
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I think that to emphasize the fullness of a character's personality (if that's the point of a given story/novel) it doesn't hurt at all to touch on all facets of that personality. Sex can either be very impersonal, or every personal (and the former often indicates something of the latter). The way a character deals with romantic relations can often show a lot about the character.
But, not all novels/books are about revealing the character in full detail... In those cases, such scenes would indeed be gratuitous.
The Kushiel Legacy, I think, didn't have -too- much gratuitous sex, because sex was such a huge part of the culture and the main characters.
LKH books have degenerated into nothing but pr0n - which is cool, if that's what you're looking for.
The Song of Ice and Fire books have a light peppering of sex, but I agree at times there's a little too much slang used when involved in it (though it's appropriate when referring to Tyrion, I suppose, being as crude as he is).
The Wheel of Time series seems to somehow neatly, prudishly avoid sexual encounters on many cases, which is somewhat inappropriate given that so much of it is centered around the stereotypes of male/female interactions and the convoluted relationships that they can have...
So, I guess, it depends on how sex scenes add to the overall theme of the book and the characterizations of the dramatis personae. If at all.
... Of course, I'm already branded a deviant by the majority of America, so who cares what I say? ;) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 18 Jul 2006 22:26:01 |
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Sarephim
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 22:27:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by Sarephim
I have no problem with sexual oriented scenes... however when it gets too detailed... I cannot help but feel somewhat awkward.
I only feel that way when watching a movie with a sex scene in it. While one of my parents, or both, is sitting next to me. Ick.
What's your definition of "too detailed", anyway?
Hmm... that's a hard question. I really don't have any defining line, but I suppose if the author to go in exact detail I might feel a bit awkward. Otherwise I'm usually fine. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 22:33:34
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And we'll note that certain genres are pretty more or less "appropriate" for sexual scenes - or at least will garner different emotional reactions from the readers.
Pure romance stories, for example, would probably include sex more openly than science-fiction. The key to appealing to the fantasy/sci-fi market is making it not seem like it's written by someone who knows nothing about relationships or sexual encounters (see Episode 3 for an example - gag).
Mieville went rather the opposite direction with his Kephri (sp?) - in that he made their sexual traditions SO alien it either made a reader feel nothing 'unsavory,' (at least, in terms of cultural stigmas against sex), or so revolted that one's mind really wasn't sure how to handle it. I thought it was awesome, myself, sort of a twist on the Kzin sexual tradition from Ringworld. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 22:35:18
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| Yeah, I liked the Lin/Isaac scenes, too, because of that very fact -- it's alien. And then there's that absolutely vile Remade brothel. Mmm, Mieville. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 22:37:19
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I <3 him. I thank Shemmy the Marauder for introducing me to him - I will reference anyone who asks about Planescape to his work, immediately.
Now, I need to go make some rice and cheddar chilli turkey burgers for dinner!
(Also, to stay on topic - SEX!) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 22:38:20
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| "The purple-headed warrior?" Poetry! Genius! I hope he did battle with a moist, pink adversary. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 23:14:29
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| He did manage to find the moist, pink adversary, yes. His cousin, the velvet-sheathed steel that proclaimed him male, performed more poorly; all he found was a pearly oyster hidden in a dark swamp. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 23:15:49
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... Where would the shield be?
*Cough* |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 23:18:46
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| It's possibly a two-hander. The velvet-sheathed steel, I mean. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 23:28:55
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A lucky man.
Except for the whole accuracy thing. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 02:21:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
I'm curious, though. Does anyone agree with the viewpoint I mentioned above?
Yes, with just about everything. I mentioned in another thread that one "might-be" sex scene in The Two Swords is so coy it might not even be sex. And while this isn't specifically in a novel, the ambiguously bisexual (or not? ) eladrin queen in The Book of Exalted Deeds annoys me too, because it's as if the sourcebook is trying to be "edgy" yet coy at the same time (and I've seen people interpret the relationship between Morwel and her female consort as non-sexual, so who knows?). Pick one and go with it--the book had a "mature" tag on it, after all.
quote:
euphemisms like "the purple-headed warrior" just induce laughter).
Hell yes. I also love "the velvet-sheathed steel that proclaimed him MAN" and my favorite--"heat-seeking moisture missile".
It's just not possible (IMO) to use those terms in a serious manner. But then again, they give me a good laugh!
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Sex & the Realms
Topic Locked
