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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 05:31:02
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| Has anyone asked him this directly over in the Book Club? I mean, the author's here, so no point in arguing ourselves blue about what his intentions might have been when we can just ask him. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 05:57:36
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Saplings come from a mature tree.
Mind you, I hope this interpretation is wrong. Then Steven's "fix" will work just fine. :)
And I'm not going to ask Rich. Apparently my priorities make designers outraged, even when I state them inoffensively. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 29 Jun 2006 05:59:54 |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 06:38:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Now Steven has given us a way out, which is a great way of solving the problem, but on pg 162 of "Final Gate" Amlaruil says: "A sapling of the Tree of Souls, yes. Only one other exists in the world and that one is in the keeping of my son in his hidden realm."
The way this sentence is phrased Lamruil also has *only* a sapling, which would basically imply that the Tree of Souls is planted on Evermeet and gave birth to two saplings (if that is the expression). The Tree of Souls was expressedly created by Seldarine magic to be planted back on mainland Faerūn should the elves ever decide to reverse the Retreat. Since Lamruil's (according to Final Gate) is also a sapling, where is the real one? A plant held in stasis, as the Tree of Souls on Evermeet was, can hardly create saplings... well, at least I don't think it would...
Hello-
The bold is my own doing.
Again - I have not read the book - but based Solely on the quoted text - all it IS saying is that there is only one other sapling - and Lamruil is 'keeping it' in his hidden realm. As far as I can decipher - this does not preclude Lamruil ALSO having the main Tree of Souls. Perhaps the ToS was planted in this new realm - AND he has 'custody' of a second sapling. This would allow all previous material to still be taken at face value - and just adding in the two saplings.
BTW Mr Schend - I really do like your solution! :)
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 07:11:09
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Hm. That might work, actually.
Good job! |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 10:11:34
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I like your logical approach Dhomal. very interesting, the whole discussion by the way.
One question to Elaine Cunningham though: does not the fact that there are samplings of the tree of Souls indicate that the tree MUST have been planted somewhere? 
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
The Tree of Life was planted somewheres by Lamruil. It did its job and established a powerful mythal and magic-enhanced place just for elves. After its initial rush of power and use as an artifact, the Tree of Souls acts (for the most part) as the heart of that realm but also like a normal tree.
Saplings could potentially be taken from that central tree (now a living thing and less an artifact after its initial use of power) with far lesser effects.
I suggest keeping it limited to perhaps one sapling per 50 years or 100 years, and all the sapling can do is help repair an aging or corrupted mythal, rather than establish one itself.
What about a divine intervention by i.e. Corellon Larethian in blessing the tree (such as we have seen the Thunderblessing of the dwarves by Moradin) to create samplings (with even similar powers as the original).
Just an idea....
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 10:17:50
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| Agreed, Ergdusch. I'd just be nice if this had been mentioned in the novel. Yes the tree had to be planted, which Lamruil set out to do when he received it. So if we go along with this line of thought, Lamruil planted the ToS in his hidden realm in the north and it grew two saplings. One of them is still in his care, the other seems to have been delivered to the Crusade via Amlaruil. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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monch9
Seeker
Poland
67 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 12:47:29
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As was said by Rich Baker. The 6 years between the final chapter of the Final Gate and the Epilogue would show up in products at the 2nd half of 2007.
Monch |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 13:43:41
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quote:
Originally posted by monch9
As was said by Rich Baker. The 6 years between the final chapter of the Final Gate and the Epilogue would show up in products at the 2nd half of 2007.
Monch
Well I can't wait for 2007. Final Gate was outstanding and sure opened up a whole new avenue for the Realms  |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 17:06:12
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A whole new avenue? Curious - what do you mean by that?
I'm kind of sad at seeing the most dangerous adventuring site in the Realms reformed, and in having Lamruil's quest (to establish the newest Elven Realm on the mainland) sort of made moot. :(
I guess I view things from too much a thematic point of view. I really liked the mythological, legendary feel to Elaine's Evermeet novel. I liked the "one last, final hope, a shining star burning brightly in the sky" type of feel that Lamruil and his Tree of Souls had. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 17:12:14
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Why would this not be the natural progression from that . . . let's assume Lamruil planted his tree and established his Realm . . . when it produced a sapling, it indeed indicated that something momentous was going to happen, and Amlaruil took the tree to Seiveril, aiding him in refounding Myth Drannor . . . in other words, Lamruil's realm was key to aiding in the refounding of Myth Drannor.
And of course, Lamruil's realm is suppose to be what Evermeet was suppose to be, a true hidden, unassailable fortress for elven kind. Evermeet wasn't as safe as it could be, so Lamruil's realm is indeed truly hidden.
I guess I'm not seeing a major shift here, just a move forward in lore into another direction. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 05:35:14
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I would have rather heard about Lamruil's Realm. There was a big build up for it.. And then just a passing reference.
When Arthur pulled Excalibur and sought the Grail, we saw about what happened in Camelot. Not in Scotland.
It's almost like going, "Hey, look at how awesome this is!" and then before you can really get a look they go, "No, wait, look over there!"
In a way, the focus turned from a kingdom founded via a great personal quest, to a kingdom that was in large part founded after a huge battle. There's less of a romantic feeling about it, and one of the things I liked about the Elves of FR previously, was that romantic, Arthurian feel.
The fate of the Elves was, before, basically symbolized by the planting of a tree. Now it was symbolized by... Slaying a bunch of fiends.
It's just a totally different feel. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 30 Jun 2006 05:38:52 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 07:07:02
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IHMO, Myth Drannor statu quo was really becoming boring, so I greatly welcomed these events.
Of course, the trilogy was too short and too much "action" centered, but never forgets that word count limit.
The change from 2e (Evermeet novel) to 3e (Last mythal) reflect the overall theme change (discovery of ancient things), no big surprise here. At the beginning, I was feeling like you, sad, but after some time I naturally embraced this change (except some little details) and now I can even say that I like it.
(BTW, it's important to distinguish the FR theme change from the 2E/3E design principles changes. One of the best example of it IMHO, is the 2 (one 2E, one 3.0E) Monte Cook adventures in the lower planes published in Dungeon).
The event that occurred to make me accept happened in my current long-term campaign, I decided to make the Shadow Thieves finally return to Waterdeep (ancient evil returning!) with Marune putting and end to his exile(!). When I discovered many months later that Eric B. was doing the same with CoS, I was like  !
After I just realized that it's was very natural to occur, because it's follow exactly the 3.x FR theme.
My feeling is that if you really don't want to accept this new background rythm, you won't be satisfied with any of the new products coming, even the best ones (like CoS and SK).
Of course, if some "synergy" horror like the Hillsfar part of MoM is done again, we have to express our frustration  !
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Edited by - Skeptic on 30 Jun 2006 07:08:15 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 07:44:20
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I do prefer the old theme. Namely, more roleplaying, less rollplaying.
But, I'm quickly becoming the oldest 21 year old around. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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monch9
Seeker
Poland
67 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 08:39:08
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A lot has to do with author availability. I know that Elaine had a chance to write Lamruil's story in the Realms of Elves. Unfortunately, she got tied up with other commitments (and I think health) for her to write it up. That could have been a nice background to the eventual Last Mythal epilogue. As a Realms fan, enjoy the ever changing direction. Maybe one day, another influential author would steer the realms into another direction.
Monch |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 14:08:56
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
A whole new avenue? Curious - what do you mean by that?
I'm kind of sad at seeing the most dangerous adventuring site in the Realms reformed, and in having Lamruil's quest (to establish the newest Elven Realm on the mainland) sort of made moot. :(
I guess I view things from too much a thematic point of view. I really liked the mythological, legendary feel to Elaine's Evermeet novel. I liked the "one last, final hope, a shining star burning brightly in the sky" type of feel that Lamruil and his Tree of Souls had.
To stall is to die!
Any evolution always brings change about. ANd ofcourse there is always somebody who holds dear what just has been changed. A fact that cannot be helped.
But on the other side: see the great possibilities. An Elven Empire risen out of the ashes of demons and devils. A great City of Song resurrected.
Just some thoughts |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 18:30:50
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If it was truly to be another City of Song, there should have been a lot more about humans, dwarves, half-elves, and gnomes, too.
I don't think this is meant at all to be another City of Peace, but rather another Elven nation - which was the thematic point of Lamaruil's realm. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 18:32:24
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And note that I think one of the reasons that Elaine decided not to do the Lamruil story was because of the new direction the Realms' Elves were headed.
Correct me if I'm wrong, Elaine, if you're still reading this thread? |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 18:34:23
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| I really don't think this thread is doing anything but going in circles. I'm going to lock this for now, pending discussions with Alaundo. If you have any questions, please feel free to send me a PM. Thanks. |
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The Tree of Souls?
Topic Locked
