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atlas689
Learned Scribe
123 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 02:17:29
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Was Karsus the Mad of Netheril truly a mad man or was it just his geniusness that was so far off the wall that he appeared mad or was he a bit of both. I don't know much of Karsus other than that he was a great arcanist and that by the age of 22 he already had his floating city and lastly that it was his Arvatar spell against Mystryl that brought the destruction of Netheril. So mad genius or a bit of both worlds?
-Atlas
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Soldiers fight, thieves steal, bards sing, wizards cast, sages think, assassins kill. Good or Evil we all have a job. So tell me this. What the hell are nobles and merchants for?
From: Thoughts of an Old Sage
by: An Old Sage (anonymous) |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 07:26:42
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Oh genius without a doubt.. He did what nobody else could, and he did it for the sake of his people.. Where others cut-n-ran and tried to avoid the phaerimm problem, Karsus faced it head-on, researching, studying, and testing until he found a solution.. And in that solution he became more than any mortal has been, or ever will be.. He stripped a god of it's power and took it for himself.... 'Course he couldn't handle that power, but that sometimes happens when pushing the boundaries..
Does that make him a bad person? Or a mad person?.. No, just means he dared what nobody else would.. He cared so deeply about his people and culture that he attempted the impossible to save them.. He blazed a trail nobody else had even imagined, and yet there is a bizarre expectation that he should have known the outcome.. Had he succeeded Karsus would have been hailed as the greatest being to have ever lived.. Instead he was villified by those too cowardly or too inept to make the attempt.. Like vultures they flocked to the corpse of his failure calling him mad, insane, and too full of hubris.. Mystryl vindictively allowed Karsus to die because he got the better of a god.. The elves condemned him for being more powerful than they could ever hope to be.. And his ungrateful fellow Arcanists cursed his name for attempting to save them all and failing, while they did absolutely nothing..
Karsus just gets a raw deal.. But such is the petty vengeance of man, god, and elf..
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 07:57:23
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| I vote both. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 10:30:09
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As the saying goes (at least in Gemany): there is a very thin line between genius and insanity. 
So my guess is: first genius and later madman. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 11:32:49
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quote:
Originally posted by El Magnifico Uno
Mystryl vindictively allowed Karsus to die because he got the better of a god..
A deity, being unwillingly stripped of her power and very essence, took steps to safegaurd the entire world against what had happened. She had to sacrifice her own existence and reincarnate herself just to try to save everything. Where is the vindictiveness here?
The guy was so insanely full of pride and a lack of foresight that he cast a spell that caused the downfall of an entire nation. The only reason his spell wasn't more damaging was because Mystryl sacrificed herself to try to repair the Weave.
Genius? Bah, the man was one of the biggest fools to ever live. He was utterly mad.
Oh, he was trying to save his people, huh? Well, let's see... A grand spell, revitalizing the land long enough to rally the other mages to the purpose of defeating the phaerimm? Nah, not good enough, apparently. How about a spell stripping the phaerimm of their magic, thus ending the threat to his nation? Apparently that wasn't good enough, either. Become a god on his own, without stripping another deity of power? How blasé.
Karsus was a madman, pure and simple. The "trying to save his people" thing was a retcon, and even so, it still doesn't explain why he was so stupid about it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 13:35:41
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Surely Wooly, Karsus madness is clearly shown in his foolish actions to steal the power from a god. However, one must not forget or disregard his genius in being able to reach a level of arcane knowledge to even try such a stupid thing.
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 16:00:50
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| No person that intelligent would have ever done what he did. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 16:12:07
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| Agrees with Gothic and Wooly, he was a idiot and a complete fool. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 17:43:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Surely Wooly, Karsus madness is clearly shown in his foolish actions to steal the power from a god. However, one must not forget or disregard his genius in being able to reach a level of arcane knowledge to even try such a stupid thing.
Ergdusch
I'll not argue his genius. What I will argue is statements that say Mystryl wronged him, or that his actions were not inspired by pure madness. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 17:52:01
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| Well, genius and idiocy can easily go hand in hand. If it was madness or hubris that was his downfall I can not say but for all his genius his ending is a testimony for foolishness |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 18:14:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Agrees with Gothic and Wooly, he was a idiot and a complete fool.
Ditto |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 22:32:19
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| i dont know why, but for some reason after reading the old second edition definition of Chaotic Neutral9which was Karsus's alignment). And from what I have heard from some posts on forums. I cant help but think Karsus is like Adam west from Family Guy. A complete nutball, but an entertaining one to have around. Imagine if he had become God of Magic. Every fifth day flying puppies would fly through the sky burping out gumdrops. |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 02:42:02
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Wooly, you are obviously an elven apologist, a lapdog to Mystra, a phaerimm thrall, or perhaps all three.. Regardless, I will speak the truth to you and you will hear me.. You will be made to understand the genius of Karsus and you WILL grow to love him..
quote:
A deity, being unwillingly stripped of her power and very essence, took steps to safegaurd the entire world against what had happened. She had to sacrifice her own existence and reincarnate herself just to try to save everything. Where is the vindictiveness here?
Pfft... Mystryl should have been impressed by the sheer audaciousness of Karsus' actions.. The amount of dedication, concentration, and raw power necessary to achieve such an act is almost divine in and of itself.. Other folk have literally been raised to godhood by beating down a god (Azuth vs Savras anyone?).. So too should have Karsus.. To do otherwise, and to not even ressurect such an accomplished aracanist - the veritable pinnacle of magery?... Well that's just the petty and vindictive nature of a goddess proven to be inferior to a mortal...
quote:
The guy was so insanely full of pride and a lack of foresight that he cast a spell that caused the downfall of an entire nation. The only reason his spell wasn't more damaging was because Mystryl sacrificed herself to try to repair the Weave.
Lacked foresight? Foresight?!!!.. How could anybody have foresight as to the consequences? Nobody ever tried it before!.. He probably knew it was dangerous, but then he also figured he could handle it.. He was after all one of the most powerful mages to ever have existed.. Should he not be proud of that? Is it a crime to know one's status? To have achieved great things and be pleased by them? Only those jealous over his deeds and accomplishments would condemn him for having pride in them.. And as for Mystryl sacrificing herself to save the Weave... Well she should have made a better Weave beforehand to handle such contingencies...
quote:
Oh, he was trying to save his people, huh? Well, let's see... A grand spell, revitalizing the land long enough to rally the other mages to the purpose of defeating the phaerimm? Nah, not good enough, apparently. How about a spell stripping the phaerimm of their magic, thus ending the threat to his nation? Apparently that wasn't good enough, either. Become a god on his own, without stripping another deity of power? How blasé.
Bah! Symptomatic and happy sounding solutions.. Who could cast a grand spell revitalizing the land? Well a god could.. Who could strip an entire race of ancient creatures of the very thing they feed on? Once again a god.. Become a god without cannibalizing another one? And what? Become the god of wishful thinking? Lotta good that would do!.. Pfft, better to take the power of a goddess that isn't using it appropriately than to spend centuries (that you don't exactly have to waste, mind you) pursuing crackpot ideas that would never see fruition.. If Mystryl did not care enough to support THE empire of magic, then how could she be fit to be a goddess of magic?.. She deserved to have his magic stripped from her.. I daresay she asked for it!
quote:
Karsus was a madman, pure and simple. The "trying to save his people" thing was a retcon, and even so, it still doesn't explain why he was so stupid about it.
Hah! You call his benevolence a "retcon" and dismiss it out-of-hand? What kind of Candlekeep scholar is introduced to new secrets and then blithely ignores them if they don't meet his worldview? The kind named Wooly apparently!.. To condemn the man for not having the 20-20 hindsight you have is the very definition of madness! To dare the impossible for the sake of others as Karsus did is heroism and genius.. And you are correct on one thing, Karsus was pure.. But simple or a madman, I think not! A visionary, a would-be saviour, and a victim of cruel conspiracy is more like it!.. For shame Wooly Rupert! Shame on you! You must crawl on your belly to the Karsestone and do penance!
EDIT - Oops! Gender error on Mystryl.. For some bizarre reason I thought Mystryl was a "he" way back when.. Change leads to some disturbing connotations in paragraph 4 though.. |
Edited by - El Magnifico Uno on 28 Jun 2006 03:40:26 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 03:26:16
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*Locks Magnifico up in an Ethereal Prison-Realm somewhere.*
There, all better. ;) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 03:41:40
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quote:
Originally posted by El Magnifico Uno
Wooly, you are obviously an elven apologist, a lapdog to Mystra, a phaerimm thrall, or perhaps all three.. Regardless, I will speak the truth to you and you will hear me..
Some would call me a realist, since I'm looking at the truth as it is currently written.
quote:
Originally posted by El Magnifico Uno
You will be made to understand the genius of Karsus and you WILL grow to love him..
I'll not argue that he was a magical genius; I already acknowledged that. But I can't grow to love an utterly mad fool.
quote:
Originally posted by El Magnifico Uno
quote:
A deity, being unwillingly stripped of her power and very essence, took steps to safegaurd the entire world against what had happened. She had to sacrifice her own existence and reincarnate herself just to try to save everything. Where is the vindictiveness here?
Pfft... Mystryl should have been impressed by the sheer audaciousness of Karsus' actions.. The amount of dedication, concentration, and raw power necessary to achieve such an act is almost divine in and of itself.. Other folk have literally been raised to godhood by beating down a god (Azuth vs Savras anyone?).. So too should have Karsus.. To do otherwise, and to not even ressurect such an accomplished aracanist - the veritable pinnacle of magery?... Well that's just the petty and vindictive nature of a god proven to be inferior to a mortal...
If people should be rewarded for hubris, then half the folk of the Realms would be gods.
And the common person isn't impressed by someone trying to kill them, and certainly wouldn't help their killer do it. Why would a goddess be any different?
Inferior to a mortal? If she's inferior, how come she could handle the Weave, and Karsus couldn't? It's openly stated that he knew he'd foo'ed the moose when he cast that spell.
Resurrect Karsus? Who would be mad enough to bring back the person that almost destroyed all of magic, and did destroy his own nation?
quote:
Originally posted by El Magnifico Uno
quote:
The guy was so insanely full of pride and a lack of foresight that he cast a spell that caused the downfall of an entire nation. The only reason his spell wasn't more damaging was because Mystryl sacrificed herself to try to repair the Weave.
Lacked foresight? Foresight?!!!.. How could anybody have foresight as to the consequences? Nobody ever tried it before!.. He probably knew it was dangerous, but then he also figured he could handle it.. He was after all one of the most powerful mages to ever have existed.. Should he not be proud of that? Is it a crime to know one's status? To have achieved great things and be pleased by them? Only those jealous over his deeds and accomplishments would condemn him for having pride in them.. And as for Mystryl sacrificing himself to save the Weave... Well he should have made a better Weave...
Let's see, stripping magic from the deity that controls it... How could that not have consequences? Only a fool would think he could pull that off with no ill effect.
Proud of himself? Sure, Karsus had reason to be proud. So does Manshoon, Larloch, and Szass Tam. None of them have destroyed a nation trying to grab a prize... You can be proud and be at the top of your game, and do both without being a threat to all of existence. Unless you're Karsus, that is.
Mystryl, the goddess of magic, was made from the Weave. It's a part of her, and she's a part of it. Karsus was trying to remove part of her very essence. If someone tries to hack off your arm, is it your fault for not having a better arm? Most people would say no, but your argument indicates that you believe otherwise.
quote:
Originally posted by El Magnifico Uno
quote:
Oh, he was trying to save his people, huh? Well, let's see... A grand spell, revitalizing the land long enough to rally the other mages to the purpose of defeating the phaerimm? Nah, not good enough, apparently. How about a spell stripping the phaerimm of their magic, thus ending the threat to his nation? Apparently that wasn't good enough, either. Become a god on his own, without stripping another deity of power? How blasé.
Bah! Symptomatic and happy sounding solutions.. Who could cast a grand spell revitalizing the land? Well a god could.. Who could strip an entire race of ancient creatures of the very thing they feed on? Once again a god.. Become a god without cannibalizing another one? And what? Become the god of wishful thinking? Lotta good that would do!.. Pfft, better to take the power of a god that isn't using it appropriately than to spend centuries (that you don't exactly have to waste, mind you) pursuing crackpot ideas that would never see fruition.. If Mystryl did not care enough to support THE empire of magic, then how could he be fit to be a god of magic?.. He deserved to have his magic stripped from him.. I daresay he asked for it!
She did not ask for any such thing.
If Karsus had the power to strip a goddess of her power, then revitalizing his nation would have been child's play. Ditto for dealing with the phaerimm. He had the power to do the right thing -- instead he reached for a more glittery prize.
And how are these goals, which would accomplish Karsus's supposed purpose, crackpot? Fixing something that is broken and needed is a crackpot idea? Removing a threat is a crackpot idea? If that's the case, open up the asylum -- there's about to be a lot of new residents.
And since when is it the responsibility of a deity to watch over a mortal nation? If we follow your reasoning, Chauntea shouldn't be a deity unless she personally defends each farm, and Torm shouldn't be a deity unless he's fighting at the side of every soldier.
quote:
Originally posted by El Magnifico Uno
quote:
Karsus was a madman, pure and simple. The "trying to save his people" thing was a retcon, and even so, it still doesn't explain why he was so stupid about it.
Hah! You call his benevolence a "retcon" and dismiss it out-of-hand? What kind of Candlekeep scholar is introduced to new secrets and then blithely ignores them if they don't meet his worldview? The kind named Wooly apparently!.. To condemn the man for not having the 20-20 hindsight you have is the very definition of madness! To dare the impossible for the sake of others as Karsus did is heroism and genius.. And you are correct on one thing, Karsus was pure.. But simple or a madman, I think not! A visionary, a would-be saviour, and a victim of cruel conspiracy is more like it!.. For shame Wooly Rupert! Shame on you! You must crawl on your belly to the Karsestone and do penance!
Benevolence... The last time I checked, benevolence meant helping other folks. It did not mean ignoring them and killing them in a mad act of pride and arrogance.
I'm not condemning Karsus for not having 20-20 hindsight. I'm condemning him for not having foresight. He was too blinded by his own arrogance and madness to realize he was not only wasting time, but that he could kill his entire nation. Or worse -- he knew he could kill his nation, and didn't care...
Conspiracy? Yeah, Mystryl wanted someone to try to kill her... If it was such a conspiracy, why didn't she simply strip him of his magic before he cast the spell?
This is the last thing I will say: Karsus reached a new level of foolishness. If anything, he should have become the deity of folly and madness.
I will not reply further to this line of debate. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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dorn
Acolyte
14 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 04:09:53
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"A deity, being unwillingly stripped of her power and very essence, took steps to safegaurd the entire world against what had happened. She had to sacrifice her own existence and reincarnate herself just to try to save everything. Where is the vindictiveness here?"
Ah the arrogance of magic users.
a) If the world was devoid of the weave, it would probably be a lot safer. I mean most of the threats are based or heavily supported by magic. Then it would all be about the sword and none of these problems like turning Faerun into a desert, or having lichs, and so on would be a problem. I mean 'good' mages rarely use the extent of their magical powers except when fighting 'bad' magic users...so if there are no nasties, problem solved!
b) Sacrificing ones self is not a very noble deed when you can reincarnate yourself (thinks computer game with unlimited lives).
c) How do we know Karsus wouldn't have made a better god than Mystra? I mean he was obviously a weave-boffin and maybe getting his hands on it along with divinity all would have made him grow an acute responsibility to the greater good...or greater neutrality should i say.
;) |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 04:26:24
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"I will not reply further to this line of debate." - Oh you are no fun.. And here we were having such an amusing tongue-in-cheek debate.. So you're going to post a long list of rebuttal and then bail? Come on.. If you're gonna walk away from a debate just post something like "Sir, you are a buffon and a dimwit. I will not reply further to this line of debate." Hit-and-run is weak, especially when the debate couldn't be considered remotely serious.. Karsus as sane? Please.. Oh well, the heart has gone out of me to continue defending poor Karsus.. As usual, the conservative and traditional Candlekeep, with it's dottering learned scholars of yesteryear, has managed to crush dissent and silence an alternate opinion yet again.. *Meanwhile shivers roll down the spines of free-thinkers everywhere as legions of beetle-browed jack-booted Candlekeep scribes march past*.. Seems like nobody bothers to debate ideas for the sole purpose of debating them or looking from other viewpoints.. It's always "I'm right! I'm right! I'm right! Says so in the book!"... Bummer..
P.S. - Ha! Got my edit in just a minute before your post.. So your bolded gender corrections only come across as the petty and vindi-... Alright fine.. I've beat that phrase to death and it's not amusing anymore... *sigh* |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 04:59:48
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| Alright, that's enough El Magnifico Uno. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 28 Jun 2006 05:00:22 |
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atlas689
Learned Scribe
123 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 00:48:32
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Can somebody lock this so we dont have anymore arguing. I meant this to be more of a simple answer rather than a debate. This will not happen again I'm sorry.
-Atlas |
Soldiers fight, thieves steal, bards sing, wizards cast, sages think, assassins kill. Good or Evil we all have a job. So tell me this. What the hell are nobles and merchants for?
From: Thoughts of an Old Sage
by: An Old Sage (anonymous) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 01:35:39
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Truly, I think the arguing is done... But I'll still lock it for you. Drop me a PM if you'd like it opened back up at some point in the future -- I'm not adverse to doing that.
I guess I should offer an apology for the thread having gone in this direction. I thought El Magnifico Uno was serious, when it turns out he was just playing.   |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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Karsus... A Mad Man Or A Genius
Topic Locked
