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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 19:10:17
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
While I agree with you Dhomal. Trees in general do exactly as you say and extracting a sapling would be fairly easy. My only thought/ worry/ concern, is that... it is an artifact. As stated in the sourebooks I mentioned in earlier posts, potentially one of the most powerful artifacts on Toril. I would hope that it would be very difficult, if not impossible to "clone" for lack of a better word, an artifact... tree or otherwise.
This makes me think of a different thread here about eating an artifact, I beleive it was the eye of vecna or some such thing. If the magic could transfer, I am thinking a bunch of squirrils and birds, who hang around this "tree" would have some powerful droppings
Try this on for size, then, as a way to have one's cake and eat it too.
The Tree of Life was planted somewheres by Lamruil. It did its job and established a powerful mythal and magic-enhanced place just for elves. After its initial rush of power and use as an artifact, the Tree of Souls acts (for the most part) as the heart of that realm but also like a normal tree.
Saplings could potentially be taken from that central tree (now a living thing and less an artifact after its initial use of power) with far lesser effects.
I suggest keeping it limited to perhaps one sapling per 50 years or 100 years, and all the sapling can do is help repair an aging or corrupted mythal, rather than establish one itself.
How does that work as a potential way to not undermine the specialness of the Tree of Souls while allowing for what later writers have done?
Steven
who's done this sort of thing before to make everything work well together
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For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 19:49:32
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| Thanks for chiming in Steven. Its always good to get a veteran designer (and novelist!) to grace us with their ideas. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 19:49:58
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It certainly beats shouting "Blasphemy!" and huffing off with a sulky face |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 22:53:07
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| Agreed. Lore master Schend does help add clarity to the situation. |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 00:01:22
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| I can see this as a definite solution and a very viable option. very good, Thanks Steven |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 00:03:24
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I like that idea, provided that it coincides time-wise with the events in the latest trilogy. Though I still think that the original Tree of Souls should be the most powerful.
Though, as I said, it's still pretty much useless other than acting as a portal to Arvandor, now, since Elven High Magic doesn't provoke any negative side effects anymore... I guess ANY realm can have a permanent portal in it. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 16:42:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
Try this on for size, then, as a way to have one's cake and eat it too.
The Tree of Life was planted somewheres by Lamruil. It did its job and established a powerful mythal and magic-enhanced place just for elves. After its initial rush of power and use as an artifact, the Tree of Souls acts (for the most part) as the heart of that realm but also like a normal tree.
Saplings could potentially be taken from that central tree (now a living thing and less an artifact after its initial use of power) with far lesser effects.
I suggest keeping it limited to perhaps one sapling per 50 years or 100 years, and all the sapling can do is help repair an aging or corrupted mythal, rather than establish one itself.
How does that work as a potential way to not undermine the specialness of the Tree of Souls while allowing for what later writers have done?
Works for me--assuming, of course, that Lamruil actually planted that tree....
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Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 27 Jun 2006 17:32:39 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 16:54:26
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If Elaine agrees, then it works for me, too. :)
Now if only the people who actually wrote about this stuff would have the care to give us these kind of lore-based explanations. :( |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 27 Jun 2006 16:55:05 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 17:02:40
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Works for me--assuming, of course, that Lamruil actually planted that tree....
Spoiler : Final Gate confirms that the tree was planted by Lamruil somewhere "north". |
Edited by - Skeptic on 27 Jun 2006 17:38:00 |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2006 : 23:14:51
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Perhaps instead of spreading EHM (Elven High Magic) across Faerun (As WotC has changed things so EHM is easier to access), it could spread a bonus to spellcasting, the Spellcraft skill checks or Mitigating Factor to Epic Spellcasting that only affect elves. Elves only do to the nature of the souls that are part of the tree.
If you are very generous, you could have a minor secondary effect that empowers half-elves, half-drows and drow. No EHM, but some spellcasting power as long as it harms no good elf.
Just some 3.5 thoughts to adapt the tree for the next edition. Feel free to expand it. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 00:35:24
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<--Freelance writer, NOT WotC employee
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
If Elaine agrees, then it works for me, too. :)
Thanks for the thought, but, well, see above. My opinions are FR canon only if they're approved and published by WotC, which is why I try not to speculate about unpublished lore.
That said, Steven's suggested fix does sound plausible. |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 28 Jun 2006 00:36:55 |
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 01:17:24
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WE hang on your words Elaine (and Steven) until something "official" comes out to contradict them, if at all. No harm in that. You throughts and opinions will always be valued - at least by this Realms fan, "not WotC employee" be blowed.
The Swordsage
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 01:30:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Swordsage
WE hang on your words Elaine (and Steven) until something "official" comes out to contradict them, if at all.
It seems the trend that many official items contradict items formerly known as official.
Personally I'd like to see a nudge more coordination between the game and the book department, and also some being true to the world and especially previous published items... THE Tree of Souls is one such thing.
Admittedly no one can expect that an author/designer reads every bleeding snippet that has been published, but some continuity guru would be greatly appreciated. At least from my perspective |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 02:07:50
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| But I do recall Elaine saying how well the novel and supplement departments worked when Schend was in charge. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 12:14:21
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
But I do recall Elaine saying how well the novel and supplement departments worked when Schend was in charge. :)
Ahem. One of those unofficial voices chiming in... 
I was never "in charge" of the Realms, though I was the go-to guy for continuity and the assistant brand manager for a time. All this meant was I bothered to keep an eye on what all was going on and making sure we didn't trip over each others' feet, hands, or whichever limbs we chose to use to write.
Lessee....in my time with TSR/WotC, the people "in charge" of the Realms were Jeff Grubb, Karen Boomgarden, Thomas Reid, David Wise, and Rich Baker. I've always been the busy cog within the wheels...
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 14:16:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
But I do recall Elaine saying how well the novel and supplement departments worked when Schend was in charge. :)
Ahem. One of those unofficial voices chiming in...
I was never "in charge" of the Realms, though I was the go-to guy for continuity and the assistant brand manager for a time. All this meant was I bothered to keep an eye on what all was going on and making sure we didn't trip over each others' feet, hands, or whichever limbs we chose to use to write.
Lessee....in my time with TSR/WotC, the people "in charge" of the Realms were Jeff Grubb, Karen Boomgarden, Thomas Reid, David Wise, and Rich Baker. I've always been the busy cog within the wheels...
Steven
But a very important cog!
During Steven's time, it was understood that the outline of a novel would go to the game department for review. Ditto the first draft. The designer(s) who read it would flag potential problems. Comments and concerns would go to the editor, who would include them in his review. It was less common to interact directly with the game designers, but I became acquainted with Steven while I was writing ELFSONG. (Though I must admit to making faulty assumptions about his ethnicity, as I misheard his name as "Steven CHEN." First time I met him at GenCon, my reaction was, "Whoa! I was expecting someone shorter!" ) Anyway, Steven went through the manuscript with sourcebooks and maps at hand. At one point, I think he was rolling dice to see if Elaith really could make the jump from a nobleman's roof to one of the outbuildings. After crawling up the story's every bodily orifice with a microscope, he phoned me and concluded, with a note of wonder in his voice, "It all works." (Guess he wasn't expecting that degree of anal-retentiveness...) Steven was also incredibly helpful when I was researching and writing EVERMEET (as were Eric Boyd and a certain avocational loremaster--the email correspondence among these learned gentlemen as they discussed and debated plot points and lore details was a wondrous thing.) I always got the impression that the Realms mattered to him, personally and profoundly, and I always appreciated that.
Dale Donovan was also a terrific guy to work with--the poster child for professional courtesy in a shared-world setting. For example, when he was compiling the Heroe's Lorebook and Villain's Lorebook, he send first draft copies of character write-ups to the authors of origin. And under the terms of Jeff Grubb's "gentleman's agreement," authors and game designers would contact colleagues if they were venturing into territory covered by previously published books or game products. This climate lasted for quite some time after Mr. Grubb moved on to other positions.
I'm not familiar with the current review/continuity procedures. The Realms keeps getting bigger, so any review process would, of necessity, change. Also, editorial attitudes shift with changing staff. For example, Sean Reynolds' often-stated philosophy was that "bad game design" deserved to be changed. Continuity took a back seat to "good game design." I suppose it's not unreasonable that a game designer's primary concern would be game mechanics, not setting, but any substantial changes in mechanics will cause continuity problems.
Conversely, throw-away comments by authors can definitely gum up the works. Sometimes a single line opens a huge can of worms; for example, the closing line of one novel has Ao heading off to report to HIS boss. Big cosmology implications there!
I don't want to encourage one of the tiresome and pointless "games vs novels" discussions. I don't think there SHOULD be an us vs. them mentality. Coordination, continuity, and communication make better products. I'm all for anything that will encourage that sort of cooperation among authors and game designers.
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Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 28 Jun 2006 15:10:15 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 14:56:39
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| Do we know if there is any sort of cooperation/synergy between the two departments, or has that been another position cut? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 17:45:28
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Conversely, throw-away comments by authors can definitely gum up the works. Sometimes a single line opens a huge can of worms; for example, the closing line of one novel has Ao heading off to report to HIS boss. Big cosmology implications there!
That's a good point. Another thing that has caused a lot of issues and discussions is the Dawn Cataclysm which, from what I read somewhere, was another throw-away line. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Akukakk
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 18:30:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Do we know if there is any sort of cooperation/synergy between the two departments, or has that been another position cut?
hope there still is |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 19:20:06
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Elaine,
If I wasn't a big 'ol homo, I'd totally ask you to marry me.
<3 |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 19:34:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Akukakk
hope there still is
Well, with all the recent errors, I hope there is none ! Of course, I wish there would be one. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 20:17:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Well, with all the recent errors, I hope there is none ! Of course, I wish there would be one.
At a GenCon panel a few years back, someone asked about continuity errors. At the time, I was writing a non-fiction article for Renaissance Magazine entitled "Richard III and the Princes in the Tower." The reign of Richard III is a matter of historical record and therefore, most would assume, indisputable "fact." Not so. Historians are very divided on the subject of Richard III and the fate of his two young nephews. Likewise, they debate whether or not Mary, Queen of Scots, was innocent of the murder of her second husband. No one is sure what really happened in Perth, Scotland, that summer day in 1600, an event that is known to historians as the Gowry Conspiracy. With this in mind, I pointed out that you're likely to find less variance between any two Realms lorebooks than between two histories of real-world events.
Realmslore fans frequently fret about alternate spellings, such as Lolth and Lloth, and see this as evidence of authorial or editorial sloth (or possibly "solth?") But read Celtic mythology and folklore, and you'll find a dozen or so spellings for the names of gods and heroes.
And put history aside for a moment, and consider eye-witness acounts. If you've got three eye witnesses to the same event, you're going to get three different stories. The differences may be extreme or slight, but they'll be there.
My point, and I do have one, is that the margin for error in the Realms, though greater than I would like, is considerably smaller than that found in the real world. Not bad, when you consider we're all just pulling this stuff out of...(ahem) thin air. |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 28 Jun 2006 20:26:23 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 20:46:12
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I'm not talking about spelling ones, but things like Hillsfare events in Last Mytal vs MoM, Tilverton is a big hole (game product) / many building are still there (short story), etc.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2006 : 23:12:29
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The thing is, Elaine, that any work of fiction (be it shared or otherwise) is, in contrast to real world historic views, very controllable. Spelling errors are one thing, that could be argued with cultural difference, but if things like the Tree of Souls suddenly growing a twin, where established lore states there only is one and no explanation is given, the folklore aspect is somewhat faulty.
Both novel and supplement Evermeet say there is only one.
Now Steven has given us a way out, which is a great way of solving the problem, but on pg 162 of "Final Gate" Amlaruil says: "A sapling of the Tree of Souls, yes. Only one other exists in the world and that one is in the keeping of my son in his hidden realm."
The way this sentence is phrased Lamruil also has *only* a sapling, which would basically imply that the Tree of Souls is planted on Evermeet and gave birth to two saplings (if that is the expression). The Tree of Souls was expressedly created by Seldarine magic to be planted back on mainland Faerūn should the elves ever decide to reverse the Retreat. Since Lamruil's (according to Final Gate) is also a sapling, where is the real one? A plant held in stasis, as the Tree of Souls on Evermeet was, can hardly create saplings... well, at least I don't think it would...
I think that is the major issue and my personal gripe with it. Should my campaign ever reach the elven Crusade I will wing it the way Steven suggested because 'official' lore cannot be relied on in this case. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 01:35:56
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| Or just create a different ancient elven artifact. Considering how many tombs have bene broached and resources tapped on both sides, that's hardly a stretch. Maybe it's an artifact meant to fight the dragon overlords that the Crusade adapts to new circumstances? Considering the new series on the Rage of Dragons, that might have made an interesting tie-in. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Swordsage
Learned Scribe
149 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 02:50:27
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Avocational. I guessed what it meant, but I had to check. Thanks for the word, Elaine - even if the "avocational one" remains a mystery.
The Swordsage
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 02:59:08
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... *Sad*
Why would Lamruil have "the only other -sapling-?"
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Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 29 Jun 2006 02:59:56 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 03:36:40
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Sorry, but IMHO, you are splitting hairs here.
Look at it this way : The author wanted a Tree in Myth Drannor and he wanted to take in account the old lore about the "north" realm. So he simply said that there was another sapling PERIOD
Could he have been more cautious in his wording ? Probably, but for 99% of the readers, it would have change nothing.
Of course, we could ask him if the words he chose mean something more than what I have said above. I would be greatly surprised... |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 04:51:43
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The wording is pretty clear, skeptic. There's no hair splitting needed.
The passage makes it pretty clear that Lamruil's is only a SAPLING of the Tree of Souls. Not the main tree. And it also makes it pretty clear that they are at about the same point of development, "biologically" speaking.
Amlaruil/Rich could have said that it is a sapling of the Tree of Souls which her son planted in the north.
Not really complicated language choice, but telling. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 04:59:02
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
The passage makes it pretty clear that Lamruil's is only a SAPLING of the Tree of Souls. Not the main tree.
Again, I would be greatly surprised if M. Baker really wanted us to think that the "main tree" is somewhere else (than Myth Drannor / "north" realm)
Like I've said before, I think he just meant that there was two sapling and that they were planted in two different places.
I know that he could have said that clairly, but he did not, why well I don't know. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 29 Jun 2006 04:59:21 |
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The Tree of Souls?
Topic Locked
