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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Oct 2002 : 14:56:17
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quote:
Originally posted by kahonen
I'm not sure it works that way. I thought a god's power came from the number of worshippers that god has, not from what he's god of. Ao doesn't have a portfolio (IIRC) but he's still a god.
I may be wrong though - I'm sure someone will tell me 
Browsing through some of the older threads, I couldn't ignore your message kahonen. 
Though the number of worshippers does play a role in the powerlevel of a deity, it is not the defining factor. One worshipper can technically be enough for a deity. The crux lies in the fact that a deity needs a portfolio. And these are handed out and managed by Ao.
Every deity has at least one item in his portfolio(e.g. death, rangers, or even beer), and there where two gods have similar or overlapping elements in their portfolio one sees very often a struggel for power between the two.
Typically only the more powerfull deities have generic type of portfolio's like for instance feasts & festivities. Yet a further specification of that item could be beer. Yet a deity of beer would probably be one of the minor deities. The portfolio being very small and defined.
Those deities with small portfolio's also tend to be the most active when it comes to worshipper - deity relationship. They are more prone to directly interfere on behalf of their worshippers.
On your last point of Ao not having a portfolio, I'd have to check, but in any case, Ao is a very special item, and not really a deity like Bane or Chauntea. |
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Ghost
Acolyte
Netherlands
38 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2002 : 16:23:42
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According to Deities and Demigods, there is an increase in followers in accordance with the increase in divine power. More powerful deities would also have either more portfolio's, or portfolio's that are a bigger part of (human) life. But which comes first, the power or the followers, is not mentioned.
Ao must be a deity of divine rank 21+, and not caring about followers doesn't realy need a portfolio (since that basically describes your worshippers). |
The way of a superior man are three-fold;
virtuous, he is free from anxieties;
wise, he is free from perplexities;
bold, he is free from fear. ~ Confucius
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Edited by - Ghost on 09 Oct 2002 16:26:50 |
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Drummer Boy
Senior Scribe
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2002 : 04:48:58
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| A god's power is determined by the number of followers they have, so I don't think that the number of other gods a god defeats will not affect his/her level of power. However, if a god defeats another god and inherits his/her title, he/she would become stronger because that god would gain more followers. |
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Drummer Boy
Senior Scribe
USA
395 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2002 : 04:54:35
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| I think that if a god gave away his/her portfolio, he/she would cease to exist because in Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad, the other gods conduct a trial to determine whether or not Cyric is mad, but if they found he was mad, they were planning to annihilate him, and didn't mention him becoming a mortal. |
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Vixen Servant Of Bhaal
Acolyte
Canada
7 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2003 : 19:37:57
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I've spent the past 5 years studying and real about bhaal for along time now. So I'll fill you in on what I know...
I read all your post but I don't know if you people understand what Bhaal is and who he is.... You need to undertsnad this before you can say he does or dosnt exsist but.....
Bhaal is dead yes that is very true, but that dosnt mean he still dosnt exsist.....his essence still exsist's. Bhaal will not and cannot ever be tottally destroyed because he is the act of killing. The only way for him to be completely destroyed would be for people and creatures all over faerun to stop killing which IS impossible.
He IS the ACT of killing. So when somthing is murdered or killed it gives him the essance of the victim that was murdered. People who warship Bhaal as a god are called Bhaalist's... and deathstalkers are the ones that help give back the essence even more to him.
Bhaal Lord of Murder
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Portfolio: Death, especially violent or ritual death
Symbol: A white, face-on human skull surrounded by a counter-clockwise orbit of many streaming blooddrops
Domains: Death, Destruction, Evil, Law, Illusion, Trickery
Favoured Weapon: Kukri
Worshipper's Alignment: LN, N, CN, LE, NE, CE
Bhaal (Bahl), one of the Dark Gods, was the God of death, particularily of slaying, assassination, and violent death. His was a powerful faith in Faerun at on time, and the Lord of Murder was venerated by numerous assassins, violent mercenaries, and other brutal and fiendish killers. While he lived, Loviatar and Talona served him (though the two were rivals to each other), and he in turn served Bane.
Bhaal was violent, cruel and hateful at all times, and lived only to hunt and murder. He could be alterately cold, calculating and ruthless or filled with a savage bloodlust. The pretense of living creatures instilled a deadly hunger in the Lord of Murder and an overpowering need to kill and destroy. His minions, such as Karogoth the Beast inthe Moonshae Islands, wrought devastation and violent death wherever they roamed.
Bhaal suffered a series of reverses prior to the Time of Troubles, the most vital being his banishment from the Moonshaes. Bhaal tried to destroy the Earthmother (Chauntea) and seize the Moonshae Islands as his personal domain. The Ravager, imbued with a greater fraction of Bhaal's essence than is normally contained in an avatar, was slain by Tristan, High King of the Ffolk, who wielded the Sword of Cymrych Hugh. As a result, Bhaal was severely weakened and exiled from the Realms for a time.
Before Bhaal could rebuild much of his power, he was returned to Faerun in avatar form by the will of Ao during the Fall of the Gods. Bhaal, reduced to a killing force able only to possess humans, then went on a spreee of murder and destruction the like of which had never before been seen. When Lord Bane sought the power needed to challenge Torm, he slew all of the assassins in the Realms who made up the bulk of the Lord of Murder's faithful, further reducing Bhaal's power. After the Lord of Strife's destruction, Bhaal forged and alliance with Myrkul. The two gods sough the Tablets of Fate so that they could return to the Outer Planes. After pursuing her across the Heartlands, Bhaal kidnapped Midnight and seized one Tablet of Fate, but was murdered soon after by Cyric with the sword Godsbane (later revealed to have been the avatar form of Mask). What remained of Bhaal's essence was absorbed by the Winding Water, and that river has subsequently been poisonous from the Boareskyr Bridge downstream to the Trollclaw Ford.
It is believed that a fragment of Bhaal's personality remains in the jet black, foul-smelling waters of the Winding Water much like Myrkul's essence survives in the Crown of Horns and fragments of Bane's personality survive in his servitor Baneliches. If Bhaal is ever resurrected, it will be in the shadow of Boareskyr Bridge.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2003 : 22:47:27
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When a god dies its essence and corpse floats in the Astral plane.
Like Moander.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Malanthius
Learned Scribe
144 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2003 : 01:26:42
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According to most of the sources i've read (Deities and Demigods, faiths and pantheons, manual of the plaens) the bodies in the astral plane is just one place they might end up. They're have been several examples over the centuries of godly power remaining after a diety has been killed/destroyed/etc. To name a few, Azuths staff that held savras, the hand of bane in the Finder novels, the crown of horns itself.
The point of this kind of thing is to leave openings so old deities can be restored/rehashed/reshaped in case the fan base speaks loudly enough that they want them back. It's perfectly possible WOTC could bring back bhaal, but they don't for the same reason they replaced him, myrkuul and bane in the first place; the three of them put together didn't truly have much depth as characters. Yes they were evil, but you didn't really understand WHY .
Cyric on the other hand, that guys so deep even he can't find the bottom. |
"Oh, Do stop whining, It's not the End of the World. It's just the end of Your's." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2003 : 02:09:48
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That exactly right Malanthius. However most 'dead' deities are sent to float in the astral plane as large plantesimals with one or two Githyanki outposts on top.
There is an interesting article (2e) in Dragon Magazine #242 I think (well it is #24...something), that updates some of the information presented in the Planescape adventure Dead Gods. Apparently, the deities are not actually dead, just 'de-powered', and the actual 'chunky' physical essences of the deity can grant PC's special abilities. That is, if they travel to these 'chunks' and perform the necessary techniques (as detailed in the article) to gain, potions, magical components, etc.
Of course, there are a number of hazards that relate to a dead-god body. PC's should be very careful.
I'll post a little more when I find the article.
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Vixen Servant Of Bhaal
Acolyte
Canada
7 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2003 : 21:00:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
When a god dies its essence and corpse floats in the Astral plane.
Like Moander.
not true just because he goes to the astral plane dosnt mean he dosnt exsist eather that just means he is in another dimension he can still appear to his followers..
and also what about the books on baldurs gate.. did you read them?? because in the time of troubles Bhaal was in the astral plane as well but he still appeared to his childern and his followers.
--> heres a peice that comes strait from the books...
-------------------------------------------------------
Bhaal strikes unerringly, his dagger causing the area wounded to wither, He rarely appears to worshipers or others, but is depicted by priests as a bloody, mutilated corpse with a feral face and silent movements. It is said that every murder done strengthens Bhaal. While Myrkul recognized as lord of the dead, Bhaal is lord of death itself, the act of killing.
-----> http://www.darkside.gr/guests/add/realms/religion.html
-----> http://ulkarnis.rpg.net.nz/gods/bhaal.html
-----> http://www.adriftgames.com/nyrthellan/reference/deitevil.htm
Malanthius is right just because a god dies does not mean his power dosnt still exsist. Bhaalist warshippers still exsist to this day in faerun
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Edited by - Vixen Servant Of Bhaal on 22 Jul 2003 21:10:56 |
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Mythander
Learned Scribe
USA
121 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2003 : 21:43:50
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quote:
Originally posted by ArionElenim
Does anyone know what would happen if a god willingly gave away their portfolio? Would they cease to become a god and suddenly exist as a mortal or would they just cease to exist?
Any thoughts...?
After the Avatar Trilogy, Ao made a gods power depend on the gods followers. If they dropped their portfolio and they still had worshipers they would still be a god. |
Wow! That has no saving throw written all over it. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2003 : 21:49:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Vixen Servant Of Bhaal
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
When a god dies its essence and corpse floats in the Astral plane.
Like Moander.
not true just because he goes to the astral plane dosnt mean he dosnt exsist eather that just means he is in another dimension he can still appear to his followers..
and also what about the books on baldurs gate.. did you read them?? because in the time of troubles Bhaal was in the astral plane as well but he still appeared to his childern and his followers.
--> heres a peice that comes strait from the books...
-------------------------------------------------------
Bhaal strikes unerringly, his dagger causing the area wounded to wither, He rarely appears to worshipers or others, but is depicted by priests as a bloody, mutilated corpse with a feral face and silent movements. It is said that every murder done strengthens Bhaal. While Myrkul recognized as lord of the dead, Bhaal is lord of death itself, the act of killing.
What did I say that was 'not true' vixen. And the Baldur's Gate books are not Canon material. Even the novels. I did not read those novels because for me the storyline is taken care of by the game.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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PathWarden
Acolyte
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2003 : 21:51:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Vixen Servant Of Bhaal
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
When a god dies its essence and corpse floats in the Astral plane.
Like Moander.
not true just because he goes to the astral plane dosnt mean he dosnt exsist eather that just means he is in another dimension he can still appear to his followers..
and also what about the books on baldurs gate.. did you read them?? because in the time of troubles Bhaal was in the astral plane as well but he still appeared to his childern and his followers.
--> heres a peice that comes strait from the books...
-------------------------------------------------------
Bhaal strikes unerringly, his dagger causing the area wounded to wither, He rarely appears to worshipers or others, but is depicted by priests as a bloody, mutilated corpse with a feral face and silent movements. It is said that every murder done strengthens Bhaal. While Myrkul recognized as lord of the dead, Bhaal is lord of death itself, the act of killing.
-----> http://www.darkside.gr/guests/add/realms/religion.html
-----> http://ulkarnis.rpg.net.nz/gods/bhaal.html
-----> http://www.adriftgames.com/nyrthellan/reference/deitevil.htm
Malanthius is right just because a god dies does not mean his power dosnt still exsist. Bhaalist warshippers still exsist to this day in faerun
Forgive me, but it is my understanding that when a god is slain, and his protfolio assumed by another, as Cyric did to Bhaal, that god is no more. His priests get no more spells, his followers no divine guidance. In all ways that matter, that god is no more. This appears to be the case with Bhaal.
I am not saying Bhaal can not be brought back, as it appears Bane has done, but I am saying it is improbable. ` |
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Vixen Servant Of Bhaal
Acolyte
Canada
7 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 02:06:53
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hmmm then im confused then on how bhaal still appears to his followers as a slain corpse. Perhaps im the one with less knowedge here fill me on this subject  |
Edited by - Vixen Servant Of Bhaal on 23 Jul 2003 02:08:19 |
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Vixen Servant Of Bhaal
Acolyte
Canada
7 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 02:16:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by Vixen Servant Of Bhaal
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
When a god dies its essence and corpse floats in the Astral plane.
Like Moander.
not true just because he goes to the astral plane dosnt mean he dosnt exsist eather that just means he is in another dimension he can still appear to his followers..
and also what about the books on baldurs gate.. did you read them?? because in the time of troubles Bhaal was in the astral plane as well but he still appeared to his childern and his followers.
--> heres a peice that comes strait from the books...
-------------------------------------------------------
Bhaal strikes unerringly, his dagger causing the area wounded to wither, He rarely appears to worshipers or others, but is depicted by priests as a bloody, mutilated corpse with a feral face and silent movements. It is said that every murder done strengthens Bhaal. While Myrkul recognized as lord of the dead, Bhaal is lord of death itself, the act of killing.
What did I say that was 'not true' vixen. And the Baldur's Gate books are not Canon material. Even the novels. I did not read those novels because for me the storyline is taken care of by the game.
sorry no what i ment was u should read the book it tells alot more then just the game baldurs gate afterall books always tell more then movies or games do thats what makes books better. Trust me the game dosnt even tell half the stuff in the game then the book has. It gets into detail about bhaal and his essance does appear to his childern in the psychical world, and dream world. |
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Vixen Servant Of Bhaal
Acolyte
Canada
7 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2003 : 02:27:12
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quote:
Forgive me, but it is my understanding that when a god is slain, and his protfolio assumed by another, as Cyric did to Bhaal, that god is no more. His priests get no more spells, his followers no divine guidance. In all ways that matter, that god is no more. This appears to be the case with Bhaal.
I am not saying Bhaal can not be brought back, as it appears Bane has done, but I am saying it is improbable. `
Assassin of Bhaal: Deathstalker
The deathstalkers are ultimate killers, ruthless, calculating and cold-blooded. They have devoted their lives to fulfilling the wishes of their dark master, the Lord of Murder. A deathstalker adopts a rigorous training schedule to stay at the peak of their physical performance. At the core of their teachings lies a dark and twisted (despite having a profound respect for life) philosophy that allows members of their order to pick and choose who will live or die. Deathstalkers are often given the hardest assassination jobs, and they use any means necessary.
A single deathstalker is capable of wiping out a small village and escaping unnoticed. However, the goals of the clergy are varied, and deathstalkers are employed by the church of Bhaal with surgical precision. If a task is particularly difficult, they will work in small cells, groups of no more than four to accomplish their goals. A deathstalker is also incredibly resourceful and patient. They can stay away from civilization living off the land for years, waiting for the right moment to strike at their mark. They often create poisons from simple herbs, craft powerful bows from what nature gives them.
Their deadly precision and fanatical devotion to the act of murder are what make the deathstalkers so revered. They almost always deal the final killing blow in person, and use a wickedly-sharp re-curved ceremonial dagger. Their sacred order is so secretive that most low-ranking members of the clergy do not even know of their existence.
If a deathstalker is ever captured by an enemy, they are required to take their own lives - preferably with their own ceremonial dagger (which with one final twist of the wrist they are to snap the blade from the hilt - thus not allowing these blessed blades to fall into the wrong hands). If this is not possible, a contingency of deadly poison must be employed.
Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians, Monks, Clerics and evil Druids are most often found as deathstalkers.
Hit Die: d8
Requirements:
In order to become a deathstalker, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment:Lawful or Neutral Evil
Base Attack Bonus:+4
Skills:
8 Ranks Hide
8 Ranks Move Silently
8 Ranks Tumble
4 Ranks Disguise
4 Ranks Read Lips
4 Ranks Wilderness Lore
Feats:
Exotic Weapon [Kukri]
Weapon Focus [Kukri]
Track
Improved Initiative
Special:
Evasion Class Feature
Kukri of at least Materwork Quality
Bhaal as Patron
Skills:
The deathstalker's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Innuendo (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Intuit Direction (Wis), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Read Lips (Int, exclusive skill), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Rope (Dex) and Wilderness Lore (Wis).
Skill Points at Each Level: 6 + Int Modifier
Suggested Feats:
Shadow
Blind-Fight
Ambidexterity
Two-Weapon Fighting
Spring Attack
Weapon Specialization
Sharp-shooting
Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: (Ex) A deathstalker's weapon training focuses on weapons suitable for stealth and sneak attacks. Thus, all deathstalkers are proficient with the crossbow (hand or light), dagger (any type), dart, light mace, sap, shortbow (normal and composite), short sword, as well as Bhaal's ceremonial dagger (kukri). Medium-size deathstalkers are also proficient with certain weapons that are too big for Small deathstalkers to use and conceal easily: club, heavy crossbow, heavy mace, morningstar, quarterstaff, and rapier. Deathstalkers are proficient with medium armor and shields.
Sneak Attack: (Ex) Any time the deathstalker's target would be denied her Dexterity bonus to AC (whether she actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), the deathstalker's attack deals +1d6 points of damage. This extra damage increases by +1d6 points every other level (+2d6 at 3rd level, +3d6 at 5th level, and so on). Should the deathstalker score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.
It takes precision and penetration to hit a vital spot, so ranged attacks can only count as sneak attacks if the target is 30 feet away or less.
With a sap or an unarmed strike, the deathstalker can make a sneak attack that deals subdual damage instead of normal damage. He cannot use a weapon that deals normal damage to deal subdual damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty, because he must make optimal use of his weapon in order to execute the sneak attack.
A deathstalker can only sneak attack living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Additionally, any creature immune to critical hits is similarly immune to sneak attacks. Also, the deathstalker must also be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach a vital spot. The deathstalker cannot sneak attack while striking at a creature with concealment or by striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.
If a deathstalker gets a sneak attack bonus from another source (such as rogue levels), the bonuses to damage stack.
Death Attack: (Ex) If the deathstalker studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (deathstalker's choice). While studying the victim, the deathstalker can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the deathstalker or recognize the deathstalker as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails her Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + the deathstalker’s class level + the deathstalker’s Intelligence modifier) against the kill effect, she dies (subject is reduced to -10 Hit Points).
If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim’s mind and body become enervated, rendering her completely helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the deathstalker. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the deathstalker has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds. If a death attack is attempted and fails (the victim makes her save) or if the deathstalker does not launch the attack within 3 rounds of completing the study, 3 new rounds of study are required before he can attempt another death attack.
The deathstalker's continued training in assassination makes him an even deadlier foe. At levels 5, 8 and 10 the deathstalker recieves an additional bonus to the Death Attack DC.
http://www.davidcwood.com/adnd/campaign/evil/deathstalkers.php |
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Myrkul
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 00:47:11
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Alright... I have much interest in the subject of dead gods... especially the three brothers. Now I'll just throw all the information I know into the ring for anyone who's been having trouble getting any...
Bhaal
Lord of murder
Intermediate Deity
Symbol: A skull surronded by a counter clockwise orbit of blood drops
Home PLane: The Barrens of Doom and Despair
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Portfolio: Death, especially violent or ritual death
Worshipers: Murderers, assassins, bounty hunters, and mercenaries
Domains: Death, Destruction, Evil, Hatred, Law
Favored Weapon: "Bone Blade" (dagger, not the kukri as previously stated)
And that's Bhaal's statistics block... he was killed by Cyric during the time of troubles and was killed...
Now Myrkul, Myrkul was also killed by Cyric, but was intelligent enough not to die forever... he instilled his life essence, and personality into a crystal crown. I forget the exact name of the crown and location, but this means that Myrkul is also not dead forever, and could be brought back...
So it seems that Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul all seemed to have contigency plans for their deaths... Perhaps they all saw their fate coming and therefore prepared? We may never know... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 02:34:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Myrkul
Alright... I have much interest in the subject of dead gods... especially the three brothers. Now I'll just throw all the information I know into the ring for anyone who's been having trouble getting any...
Bhaal
Lord of murder
Intermediate Deity
Symbol: A skull surronded by a counter clockwise orbit of blood drops
Home PLane: The Barrens of Doom and Despair
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Portfolio: Death, especially violent or ritual death
Worshipers: Murderers, assassins, bounty hunters, and mercenaries
Domains: Death, Destruction, Evil, Hatred, Law
Favored Weapon: "Bone Blade" (dagger, not the kukri as previously stated)
And that's Bhaal's statistics block... he was killed by Cyric during the time of troubles and was killed...
Now Myrkul, Myrkul was also killed by Cyric, but was intelligent enough not to die forever... he instilled his life essence, and personality into a crystal crown. I forget the exact name of the crown and location, but this means that Myrkul is also not dead forever, and could be brought back...
So it seems that Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul all seemed to have contigency plans for their deaths... Perhaps they all saw their fate coming and therefore prepared? We may never know...
Well, I must correct you on a couple of things...
One is that the three were not brothers.
Next, though it is a theory that Bane prepared for his eventual return, it is only a theory. There's no direct evidence that he planned his resurrection.
There is also no indication that Myrkul planned for his resurrection. The description of the Crown of Horns says that his essence went to the greatest nearby source of his power, which was the Crown. And he has since demonstrated no desire to return to being a deity.
Truly, I find it hard to think that any of them could have prepared for their own resurrection -- because that would mean they planned for their own death, and thus they were aware of the fact they could be defeated. But none of their actions indicated that they thought defeat was even possible, much less something to plan for. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 07:08:42
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"Next, though it is a theory that Bane prepared for his eventual return, it is only a theory. There's no direct evidence that he planned his resurrection."
Actually both the Novels Finders Bane and Pool of Twilight show that Bane planned for is own return (the Bane Liches) and new centuries in advance that he would die during the time of troubles (The Oracle of strife)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 11:14:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
"Next, though it is a theory that Bane prepared for his eventual return, it is only a theory. There's no direct evidence that he planned his resurrection."
Actually both the Novels Finders Bane and Pool of Twilight show that Bane planned for is own return (the Bane Liches) and new centuries in advance that he would die during the time of troubles (The Oracle of strife)
Can you provide some page numbers? I don't recall it being stated that baneliches were intended as a backup.... |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 11:28:39
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Well, it comes back to how you view deities. I see them as having an inner timeless core that is a constant throughout there entire period of existance beginning ot end, with whatever face they are showing during hte current point in timne to be merely an aspect of them, affected by current events and also by this core consciousness.
While the bane of the ToT era(or more specifically right before) might think he could not fail, and is an immortal god, there was a small aprt of him that knew otherwise, and even that fraction of his being was able to enact changes, because it knew not only that he would die, but that he would return.
That the current aspect of bane at that time did not know is natural. While the core would plan ot preserve the whole, it would not, or could not, enact the level of changes that might allow him to have the foreknowledge to prevent the troubles, as this would change who Bane is and becomes later, and is thus contrary to the bane of that point in time.
Much like a man going back in time might make sure his grandfather is not killed by falling bricks, but would attempt to make no other changes, fearing he would never be born. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
971 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2004 : 23:30:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
While the bane of the ToT era(or more specifically right before) might think he could not fail, and is an immortal god, there was a small aprt of him that knew otherwise, and even that fraction of his being was able to enact changes, because it knew not only that he would die, but that he would return.
I just don't see that... If that inner core knew he was going to fail, why did it not give a more concrete warning?
Also, why would not other deities have made similar provisions? Leira is still dead, as is Ibrandul and Moander, and several others that have been lost throughout the ages. |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2004 : 00:23:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I just don't see that... If that inner core knew he was going to fail, why did it not give a more concrete warning?
Because it knows from it's perspective that bane will be resurrected, and that it's existance will continue. This is a minor inconvenience. Or even could figure prominantly into future beneficial events. I also see it as being similiar to unconscious urges and whispers, bane would have been compelled to do this, but might not have been so sure why. And with a Deity's nigh omnipotent power, this division of effort would have been unnoticible.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Also, why would not other deities have made similar provisions? Leira is still dead, as is Ibrandul and Moander, and several others that have been lost throughout the ages.
Who says they didn't? Maybe they don't return in 1373 DR, maybe not even in 1734. But like cthulu rising from the ashes, Moander might return one day. The gods I use are not so bothered by a few centuries, and see a millenia a reasonable amount of time to let hte heat cool off before returnign to the scene.
Also, (using my theory)in most cases, the deity knows to engineer their survival because they were later resurrected, and sent word back to engineer the exact circumstance that allowed them to be resurrected. An infinite loop, I know, but this is a deity we are talking about here.
It also gives me the leeway to bring back any deity as I choose, with the ressurection plan being delayed unti lI deem appropriate, or do away with them entirely, since they cannot engineer their return if they are dead. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2004 : 01:03:27
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| Well Bhaal had his Bhaalspawn that he created for just that reason. Also there is, in one of the old sourcebooks from 2e, Volo's Guide to Cormyr maybe?, has a hint that Moander also made other clones like Alias so he could return through them.... I can't recall what sourcebook that is in though but I've used it as a plot hook for one of my games. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Alparon
Seeker
Turkey
67 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 00:54:58
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i'm just sooo ignorant at this issue:
did a bhaalspawn(gorion's ward, sarewok or even amellysan; anyone) became a god him/herself....
or is s/he the one cyric kills at some point and gains bhaal's portfolio
i'll be extremely grateful with an answer!
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I am Cyric, the One and the All, God of Murder and Intrigue, Patron of Deception and Chaos, Prince of Lies, the Dark Sun, rightful Lord of the Dead, Cyric-on-a-stick, and known to some as "the Mad God." I welcome you to The Land of the Dead... |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 01:23:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Alparon
i'm just sooo ignorant at this issue:
did a bhaalspawn(gorion's ward, sarewok or even amellysan; anyone) became a god him/herself....
or is s/he the one cyric kills at some point and gains bhaal's portfolio
i'll be extremely grateful with an answer!
At the end of the official canon novels, Abdel gave up his divine essence and Bhaal's essence was then shattered through the multiverse. Abdel then returned to Faerun and is now just a normal human that lives on Faerun. So no he didn't kill Cyric, etc. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 14 Dec 2004 01:25:04 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 03:46:03
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| Hmm... if I remember correctly, Abdel returns to Candlekeep as Imoen and Jaheria were both killed. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 23:44:50
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So many questions so little time,
Bane foresaw his death when he read a certain book that prophesied it. He then desecrated the book by scribbling in it...trying to tear out pages...etc... however Bane then created several backup plans to bring him back to life. Far as I know he was the only god who had advance knowledge of his death. (Read that in the Finders Bane books) Bhaal might had an idea he might one day bite the big one, hence all of the Bhaalspwan out in the Realms. Lets see...when a god dies and its portfolio is taken over by another deity, that deity can then keep supplying the dead gods followers with spells. Sometimes the deity tells the dead gods followers "Hey I am your god now." Cyric has done this with Bane,Myrkul, and Bhaal. Or the god may choose not to reveal that they now have the deceased gods power for whatever reasons. (Shar & The One Who Crawls Below) Whether we like it or not, the Baldur's Gate books are slowly being accepted into the Realms 'canon' material;but, once again You are the DM so you always have the final say. AO is not a power and does not have any need for worshippers (There were some Cults of AO but they died off)His Divine Rank would technically be waaaay off the chart...In Game he would be considered the all powerful and all knowing DM.
There was also a 3 part Dungeon adventure set in the Mere of Dead Men that deals with Myrkul possible come back or failure to come back. One more thing before I go, a god is truly dead when no one remembers them and they are lost for all time!
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2004 : 23:56:31
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IIRC the Seven Sisters where creayed in anticipation of death of the Goddess of Magic. As for foreknowoedge in general most gods would not even bother to try foreseeing their death (they do not expect to die) however a future srring might from time to time reveal such information.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Bhaal, Lord of Murder, and his followers...
