| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 00:11:11
|
A Question with regard to the feat Profane Lifeleech on page 29 of Libris Mortis
I was playing the Worlds Largest Dungeon yesterday and my character took Profane Lifeleech (Im playing Dargoth the Cleric of Bane  ) and our DM said he reckons Profane Lifeleech is broken (ie its to powerful) So I thought Id check with Candlekeeps Ruleslawyers
Am I correct in saying the following
1) There is no saving throw or Spell Resistence
2) It can affect as many people as fall within the area of affect (in this case a 30 foot burst)
3) The burst is indiscriminate and affects everyone caught within the radius of the burst ie Enemies, fellow party members,neutrals etc
Do you think the Profane Lifeleech feat is broken?
|
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 00:34:41
|
"Profane Lifeleech [Divine]
You can channel negative energy to draw the life force from nearby living creatures.
Prerequisite: Ability to rebuke undead.
Benefit: As a standard action, you can spend two of your rebuke attempts to deal 1d6 points of damage to all living creatures within a 30-foot burst. This effect can't reduce any creature's hit point total to less than 0. You are healed for a number of hit points equal to the total amount of hit points that you drain from affected creatures, but this healing does not allow you to exceed your current maximum hit point total.
Special: This feat deals no damage to constructs or undead."
source WotC webpage.
This does look a bit broken to me as it does not appear to allow any saves or resistance. The only limit on it is number of rebuke expended to cause damage and heal oneself. I certainly would not allow this as written. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
 |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 02:03:19
|
| Damage to many people with no save, healing to you, and it's a feat? That's about 14 kinds of broken... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 02:16:52
|
The "feat" is availble at first level one can rebuke.
To be clear I said " a little broken", what I mean is it is greatly broken. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 02:32:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Damage to many people with no save, healing to you, and it's a feat? That's about 14 kinds of broken...
The nearest thing I can find to compare it to is the Spell Vampric touch |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 02:43:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
The nearest thing I can find to compare it to is the Spell Vampric touch
Which requires a successful touch attack, effects one person is capped at 10d6, and is a level 3 spell. Is an instant death spell as can take target to -10 hit points. Admitily there is no save, however AC gives a chance not to be effected, further there is the chance of conter spell, disruption as well. Some feats can be disrupted as well to one extent or another, this feat however does not appear to indicate that anything can stop its use. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 05:32:30
|
Heck no! After reading that, I went to the WotC website to see if there was any errata up for Libris Mortis, but nothing so far.
That feat is completely insane, and so is whomever thought of puting it in. I'm not even certain I want to fix it -- I'd just ban it completely. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 05:43:18
|
Ive posted a similar message over at Sean Reynolds site and in Rich Bakers thread over at the WOTC FR forum |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
|
|
|
Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 06:14:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
A Question with regard to the feat Profane Lifeleech on page 29 of Libris Mortis
I was playing the Worlds Largest Dungeon yesterday and my character took Profane Lifeleech (Im playing Dargoth the Cleric of Bane ) and our DM said he reckons Profane Lifeleech is broken (ie its to powerful) So I thought Id check with Candlekeeps Ruleslawyers
Am I correct in saying the following
1) There is no saving throw or Spell Resistence
2) It can affect as many people as fall within the area of affect (in this case a 30 foot burst)
3) The burst is indiscriminate and affects everyone caught within the radius of the burst ie Enemies, fellow party members,neutrals etc
Do you think the Profane Lifeleech feat is broken?
Yes, 1, 2,and 3 are all correct.
However, I don't think it's broken.
It deals a small amount of damage in a burst around you, and heals you an amount equal to the damage. You cannot bring anything under 0 with it, and it takes uses from another special ability.
The only thing I would change would be to explicitly state that the damage was from negative energy, and to remove the Special: line. |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 11:31:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
However, I don't think it's broken.
It deals a small amount of damage in a burst around you, and heals you an amount equal to the damage. You cannot bring anything under 0 with it, and it takes uses from another special ability.
The only thing I would change would be to explicitly state that the damage was from negative energy, and to remove the Special: line.
2 rebukes effects 4d6 Hit dice, plus Cha Cleric level and might not cause any real damage (a scared Undead is not harmed) as oposed to the ability to have a greater magic missile and a quick healing.
At low level you can disable a large group, kill at leasure but not get much healing benefit. At higher leves might not disable any but get quick healing that does not appear to be disrupyible. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 16:48:52
|
Not to mention the prereq. It bears mentioning (again?) that you must be able to rebuke, not turn, "rebuke" undead.
It's not broken, just nasty. :) |
|
|
|
Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 17:01:52
|
**You can channel negative energy to draw the life force from nearby living creatures.**
It uses negative energy to cause damage so any protection spells that affect negative energy would stop it.
**2 rebukes effects 4d6 Hit dice, plus Cha Cleric level and might not cause any real damage**
It costs 2 rebukes to use, the number of living creatures injured are how many fit in a 30' burst. The spell is also an equal opportunity destroyer.
It is kinda broken but can be fixed. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
|
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 17:19:35
|
Well to quote Sean K Reynolds posted today:
"It's broken. I told WotC it was broken before the book was published and why. Apparently they didn't have time to fix it (the book was almost out the door when I saw it). Hopefully they'll fix it in errata.
Here's what I said:
"Spend two rebuke attempts to deal 1d6 damage to everyone in a 30 ft burst (no save?), and I heal all the damage I just dealt out? This just became the most useful effect of the rebuke undead ability, especially if you're the evil necromancer cleric (who doesn't normally have the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells). Hurt a bunch of enemies and heal myself in the same round? Sign me up! This is far better than vampiric touch (1d6 per two caster levels to one target you have to touch) and you're going to have at least two uses per day (assuming a Cha 13+). Oh, and it's a supernatural ability, so it doesn't provoke an AOO."
Yes, it's just 1d6 per creature, but the real benefit is that it heals you, affects everyone in the area, has no save, has no AOO, and lets you use your worthless turn attempts on living creatures." |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 17:24:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well to quote Sean K Reynolds posted today:
"It's broken. I told WotC it was broken before the book was published and why. Apparently they didn't have time to fix it (the book was almost out the door when I saw it). Hopefully they'll fix it in errata.
Or quite likely they just aren't listening to him anymore? |
|
|
|
Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 17:39:01
|
| Since it is December and it came out in October....I will not hold my breath. Any ideas on how to fix it without just tossing it out. For example, for any number of hitpoints above your maxium you take that in damage. This would keep a fully heal person from just blasting people. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
|
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 17:51:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well to quote Sean K Reynolds posted today:
"It's broken. I told WotC it was broken before the book was published and why. Apparently they didn't have time to fix it (the book was almost out the door when I saw it). Hopefully they'll fix it in errata.
Or quite likely they just aren't listening to him anymore?
They asked his opinion, they still publish some of his game designs. Oh they might have decided the cool feature was more important then balance. Perhaps they will change it depending on how many DMs allow it to be used.
As for turn/rebuke those are just both sides of basically the same thing. Part of the problem I have with this feat is an ability designed for handling undead now becomes a device to use against the living. In some campaigns there are few undead so turn/rebuke is of little use. There IMO should be a fix, require more rebukes, reduce damage and/or hit points recieved, area of effect or bloody something.
Perhaps they might instead offer a turn conversion of some kind as a balance, perhaps a mass heal using a holy symbol. This could be an option if they think all that can turn/rebuke are not in balance with other classes. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 17:58:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Since it is December and it came out in October....I will not hold my breath. Any ideas on how to fix it without just tossing it out. For example, for any number of hitpoints above your maxium you take that in damage. This would keep a fully heal person from just blasting people.
Well that certainly might be one idea to only make useible only when needing hit points, however that becomes a problem of how many hit points should one be down. Also a feat that causes damage to user if dice rolls are good most likely would be unbalanced against the user.
As you see I offered a few ideas already on posible ways to fix. Of course one quick fix would be to say the hit points could only be taken from undead rather then the living. This at least would be more in keeping with what rebuke is about. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2004 : 19:22:42
|
Followup:
Sean K Reynolds tentitive fix is.
"Reduce the amount of healing (or remove it entirely), give the targets a save."
Some might consider doing this, though save for half or negates and how much to reduce healing certainly still open. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 15 Dec 2004 19:24:08 |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
A Question for Candlekeeps Ruleslawyers
