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wwwwwww
Learned Scribe
116 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Dec 2004 : 14:44:56
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I'll admit I'm no expert on the rules, so I though I'd bring up a question that's been on my mind lately. In regards to Stone to Flesh, does the object in question have to be formerly living? Meaning, you couldn't cast StF on a stone table and turn in to life, or cast in on a chisled statue of a warrior an turn it to life, correct?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2004 : 15:19:57
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I have not seen any official ruling on this, however I would say yes nactual stone can be turned into flesh, however not living a creature. In your examples the table nor the statue would not become alive, moving ceature it would just be something that could be cut up, eaten, cooked, etc.
Edir: Just looked at 3.5 write up.
" The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.) You can affect an object that fits within a cylinder from 1 foot to 3 feet in diameter and up to 10 feet long or a cylinder of up to those dimensions in a larger mass of stone." |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 11 Dec 2004 15:34:07 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2004 : 21:30:25
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Followup post:
I disagree that a statue would be turned into a corpse in the spell description. It makes little sense to me. A person turned to stone has organs, brain and so forth turned to stone. Not many rocks have any of these atributes (with magic, never say never ;-), thus I go with just being flesh. It can be a useful tunnel digging tool if there are hungry creatures about as well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 03:07:08
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Of course, nothing says the flesh has any nutritional value.  |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 03:10:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Of course, nothing says the flesh has any nutritional value.
Trouble maker ;-) Still can make tunnel making easier.
Though there should be a lot on minerals in stone turned to flesh. *G* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 03:19:54
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Depends on the rock. I'm not a geologist, so I wouldn't know what's in what. Regardless, I doubt there'd be much.
On the other hand, so long as it isn't poisonous and you combine it with prestidigitation for seasoning, you could possibly market it as diet food. Empty calories galore.  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 03:34:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Depends on the rock. I'm not a geologist, so I wouldn't know what's in what. Regardless, I doubt there'd be much.
On the other hand, so long as it isn't poisonous and you combine it with prestidigitation for seasoning, you could possibly market it as diet food. Empty calories galore.
Well I tend to picture a living creature turned into different kinds of rock to compesate for the different components of a living body (Yes I know logic dies not apply to fantasy magic) so that any rock that holds the nutritional value of a monster tuened into rock, in reverse should provide the same value when the same kind of rock is turned into flesh.
There again selling diet food could be useful also ;-)
Perhaps we could put the question to the Sage. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 03:45:29
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Yes, but I was referring to normal, ordinary rock being turned to flesh.
As for what stone flesh would be turned into, that's tricky. Mythology never makes reference to different substances -- whether it's Norse myth, Tolkien, or the Bible (though Lot's wife was turned to salt, not stone), the description always seems to imply a uniformity to the altered substance. Now, in order to change it back, one would expect some kind of "blueprint," if you will.
I'd say that it actually poses fewer problems if you assume the "blueprint" to be of a spiritual nature. The reason for that would be that mixing different types of stone would get complicated very quickly -- and one would suspect structurally unsound. Since the only "stone corpses" that fall apart in myth or fantasy seem to be the ancient or the assaulted, and adding in the implication I noted, I'd say it would be most likely that the "stone corpse" would be uniform in substance -- and probably something hard, yet common, like granite. And since stone to flesh cast on a person turned to stone actually instantly revives that person (assuming no "fatal injuries" were delt to the stone form, like decapitation) without having to get a resurection or a wish, one has to expect that the soul is still there. This, then, could be assumed to be the "spiritual blueprint" of the revived body, making certain that the body is put back aright. Since ordinary stone doesn't have a soul, its stone-turned-flesh comes out as uniform. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 04:12:53
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Well the stone flesh is turned into might be one we earthlings do not know about, we need to wait for a source book to explain certain spell effects.
I do agree myths and/pr fiction provide little quidence on the topic.
The soul or spirit providing a template does help handle flesh turned to stone and then turned back to flesh as a theory that most I believe can live with. Per the most recent AFAIK version Flesh to stone "The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue. If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities. The creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either when viewed with spells such as deathwatch.
Only creatures made of flesh are affected by this spell." Which leaves open of where the soul/spirit is. Perhaps held in stasis of some kind. In a certain sense a person turned to stone could be alive for thousands of years and be unaware. Stone never flesh certainly does not have a soul/spirit attached to it so certainly there would be no template for a body to be provided by one. Your postion supports mine in that natual rock carved into a figure of a living creature qould not actually be a dead body, in your case no template from soul/spirit , my case rended more to recerse spell effect for anything that was living before turned to stone.
It still strikes me that normal rock would have a food value of some kind, but magic does not explin this well. The designed use of stone to flesh was a cure spell from all those monsters that could turn flesh into stone. The spell was not designed to produce food and odds are not digging tunnels either. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 05:32:09
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No, but creative use of spells, especially wizard/sorcerer spells, is pretty necessary. For instance, I'd say a greater mage hand could be used as a trip attack or disarm attempt, where the bonus on the roll is the caster level (since caster level defines how much weight can be manipulated with the spell). Of course, I don't believe it's been updated to 3.5e, and since it's a highly nonstandard use for the spell, it would have to be individually DM-aproved.
Of course, a lot of "secondary uses" for spells are highly inefficient. Sometimes they're built into spells -- like the "violent thrust" aspect of the telekinesis spell, the use of which ends the spell immediately. Other times it's simply a limit of function; stone to flesh doesn't alter as much material as the lower-level spell transmute rock to mud. The flesh generated by the former spell would also be limited. Since it was never alive, its sent would likely be little to nonexistant, so it couldn't be used as a false trail. Its taste would probably be subject to the same, so unless you have prestidigitation or another spell that can alter taste, you couldn't use it to feed any animals that might otherwise eat or at least harm you (such as the stereotypical rogue throwing a stereotypical steak to the stereotypical guard dogs).
It's always good to have alternate uses for spells, because a good adventure will never be the straightforward dungeon crawl. Or at least, I don't like the ones where no NPC you meet is someone whom you don't kill. (I only like those in shooter games, mainly because I hate it when I miss and hit the "innocent bystanders" who are so oblivious that they come out into a gunfight to smoke a cigarette.  ) You just always need to keep in mind what works best for an alternate use. Stone to flesh isn't a very useful on-the-fly spell, because its use is so limited that you'd never memorize it unless you're sure you'd use it. A sorcerer who chooses that spell is pretty much wasting a spell slot, unless it's important to the roleplay (such as a desparate need for the spell, which manifests; a sorcerer should never get a spell he or she doesn't really "need" . . . but that's a topic for another time). |
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Lina
Senior Scribe
Australia
469 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 07:25:03
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It was always in my opinion that the stone to flesh scroll is used to negate the effects of flesh to stone scroll/effects. Therefore the intended target would have to once have been a living, breathing organism. But it could be possibly used to re-animate original stone creations, because when a player is released from their stone prison all their items revert back as well.
Another thought just crossed my mind.
If a human was turned to stone and stayed that way for centuries, does the human die? If not, then is the soul trapped within the stone as well or does it travel and stay on another plane of existence, until the effects of the spell is reversed?
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 07:47:53
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I already thought of that, and the general tone of the spell seems to say that it's indefinate. Both spells have a duration of instantaneous, and there is no time limit on a safe return to the flesh.
My interpretation is that the spell sometimes fails to preserve the creature, which is shown by the Fortitude save that stone to flesh requires. I think there'd be more of a shock to the system from flesh to stone, so if I were judging things I'd say that a failed save would have occured when the creature was turned to stone (that is, a second Fortitude save would be required after the first fails). This doesn't affect game play at all when the flesh to stone spell is used as an attack, since spells and items that raise the Fortitude modifier wouldn't affect the resulting statue (if deathwatch doesn't reveal the "statue" for what it is, then no other spells that require a living recipient would work).
It might seem that a Fortitude save taking right after the first one does, in fact, modify gameplay, but since flesh to stone is instantaneous, a spell or effect that gives a fortitude bonus only works on the initial save. By the time your body makes the save to survive the transmutation (that is, to retain enough of the all-important "mortal coil" to anchor your spirit), all items are innert stone and all spells no longer qualify -- you're stone, which most spells don't affect in that way. If any spell raises an object's Fortitude save, it should be against breakage, and that doesn't count here.
So, the short of it is, no matter what, it's a risky business to gain effective immortality. There might be some idiot who wants to try it, but most people know that there's some risk. After all, in game terms, at least 5% of people so transmuted don't make it. |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 08:05:09
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I used stone to flesh on a wall to get out of a trapped room, it was far faster to hack through flesh than stone to make our escape.
On another occasion, one of my party was turned to stone while flying, and of course fell from the sky and broke into many pieces. I had some sovereign glue, so I had the great idea of glueing him back together. Well, we carried our former companion to a cleric to have stone to flesh cast on him. Needless to say, he died quickly thereafter. Apparently, a body doesn't work well when it's full of sovereign glue. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 14:15:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Lina
Another thought just crossed my mind.
If a human was turned to stone and stayed that way for centuries, does the human die? If not, then is the soul trapped within the stone as well or does it travel and stay on another plane of existence, until the effects of the spell is reversed?
First question: if they make the necessary saves, no, not from aging. After all, their flash wasn't aging...
Second question: since the description says the statue is mindless, I'd say that the soul sticks around, but is basically sleeping within the body. After all, the common conception is that the soul sticks around until death, and the petrified person hasn't truly died... |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 14:26:46
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At best the StF (creature) appears vauge saving throw negates see text, then text indicates survire the spell. It however does not indicate death, it does not actually indicate what happens if the saving throw is failed. There appears to me two options 1) Creature remains stone or 2) creature turns to flesh but is dead as well as restored to flesh. I would perfer the first option and look to "Fortitude negates" to support that ruling. The descripted text just says survive without explaining what non survival in this case means. System Shock has been removed from 3.x so one needs to look elsewhere.
Under Conditions we have this:
"Petrified: A petrified character has been turned to stone and is considered unconscious. If a petrified character cracks or breaks, but the broken pieces are joined with the body as he returns to flesh, he is unharmed. If the characters petrified body is incomplete when it returns to flesh, the body is likewise incomplete and there is some amount of permanent hit point loss and/or debilitation."
Which alas does not discuss survival at all except "permanent hit point loss and/or debilitation." if incomplete when returned to flesh.
A 2nd Fort save to remain alive after FtS is cast is one way to go, but if the soul departs it would strike me that (at least higher levels) one could discover this and try reincarnate or other return to life magic.
The survive (which certaily can be inferred to indicate staying alive) though remains in spell description which indeed could mean death occurs at the failed StF ST (the saving throw is there for a reason). Thus if one uses 2) above, the result of the failed saving throw death occurs at that point in time and then one can then use a raise to life magic if available within set times for that type of magic to be cast.
So it can be argued either way at this point in time. Survive equal return to flesh or stay in persent condition or survive means die (either in flesh or stone condition) take your pick.
Xysma It sounds like DM had it in for that character as Sovereign Glue is not listed as a poison, though it is posible the parts were not correctly put back together (resulting in hit point lost) that caused the death. Did the chaeacrer get raised after this death? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 16:39:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
A 2nd Fort save to remain alive after FtS is cast is one way to go, but if the soul departs it would strike me that (at least higher levels) one could discover this and try reincarnate or other return to life magic.
That's a very good point, and one I hadn't considered. However, upon reflection, I think that while yes, it could be discovered -- if the creature were dead -- the odds are likely that whomever it is trying to revive the creature will instead try stone to flesh first. Reincarnate and wish both have costs significant enough that no one will just try them on the fly (especially since wish would require a double casting). Even the divinations that could reveal this usually have a cost, or are at least unreliable. In contrast, stone to flesh costs nothing but a spell slot and always turns the stone to flesh. If it turns out that the person is dead, well, then more expensive spells are called for. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 16:56:06
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| Oh certainly if a party member was turned to stone the first spell tried would be StF, what I am thinking about is finding somebody that was stoned some days, or posible even years ago, being found. If you kill them (with the 2nd Fort) one might want to try divination first. Perhaps the 2nd Fot save might have killed past the time to resurrect, 10,000 years ago for example. However FtS says the creature is not dead, only StF says survive, which certainly would make it easier to bring back to life no matter how long the stone was standing there. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 17:09:22
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Yes, quite right. Well, you could still keep my interpretation of when the second save is made, since you could say that the soul and not the body is the one in stasis. However, that starts leading into other problems of logic. So, I guess we can't actually say that the second save takes place after the first. I'd prefer it, because the change of flesh to stone seems the more serious; but since the rule states that the character isn't dead, raise dead should work after even ten thousand years (though the character might have a crick in the neck after that time).
And of course, that means that someone could use Craft Contingency Spell to cast stone to flesh after a particular event, then if a save is failed, a raise dead would be cast as well. Seems like it ought to work.
And of course, a good way to bring in a boogeyman/woman from the past that most people think was just an exagerated story. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 17:34:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
but since the rule states that the character isn't dead, raise dead should work after even ten thousand years (though the character might have a crick in the neck after that time).
And of course, that means that someone could use Craft Contingency Spell to cast stone to flesh after a particular event, then if a save is failed, a raise dead would be cast as well. Seems like it ought to work.
And of course, a good way to bring in a boogeyman/woman from the past that most people think was just an exagerated story.
The archmage forseeing the Time of Trobles and the future for 10,000 years, crafts her spell careful, so that she will safely be preservrd until the best time comes to take over the world and sharp it as she desires. ;-)
Yup could be interesting, might even be a way to reintroduce ancient feats that are soon going to be published. It also is posible a hero (AKA good character) might also be perserved in such a way to fight her. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 17:41:28
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| This hero's name wouldn't be "Arthur" would it? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 17:45:17
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| Well that is a good name for a hero *G* though getting him out of the UK might upset the Brits. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2004 : 17:49:42
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Well, it would explain why he didn't wake up to save the British in World War II . . . he wasn't around, so the Americans had to do the work. Lousy slacker. 
Hmm . . . it'd be interesting if another Terran ran into him on Toril . . . . |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 01:09:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
raise dead should work after even ten thousand years (though the character might have a crick in the neck after that time).
Cute way to work in a non-Realms reference.
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
And of course, a good way to bring in a boogeyman/woman from the past that most people think was just an exagerated story.
Or you could use that to bring back a member of a long-lost culture, like an Imaskari or another Netherese archmage... What if you brought back someone who lived in Myth Drannor, but was petrified before its fall? Ditto for Illefarn... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2004 : 05:22:03
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Not to mention that Netheril was a bit rife with wizardly feuds. Imagine: the return of the city of Shade has renewed interest in the old empire, and either from the depths of Candlekeep or from an intercepted message a new location has been found thought to contain artifacts from that era. (Note: the Candlekeep aspect is more likely, but in order to keep it from being too cliche, work it in that clues had been found from before the return of Shade, and that the city's appearance has turned what had been supposed to be a carefully planned expedition into a rush job.)
There, the expedition finds a group of Shadovar; after a brief battle (in which the Shadovar are more concerned with withdrawing than with winning), the expedition finds a lone statue. After a Spellcraft check, they figure out that it's a petrified person. Thinking that it's someone the Shadovar caught, they do the nice thing and the cleric of Oghma casts stone to flesh. Only its some ancient mage who got "stoned" in a spellbattle back in Netheril, and (s)he doesn't happen to be the better of the two.
This person, after thanking the group by loosing a few spells out of frustration, might then go oppose the Shadovar. This could be exploited any number of ways. Too many to go into, really, though since they'd have a lot to do with political intrigue it would be a maybe for most DMs. Still, it'd be a good "background story" to hear after a Gather Information check, and perhaps it would color the party's activities. |
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Stone to Flesh question . . .
