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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 04:42:00
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| Orcus isnt a God all 3 3ed and 3.5 sources specficly state that Orcus isnt a God and never has been a god. Hes Demonlord pure and simple he doesnt get avatars |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:00:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Orcus isnt a God all 3 3ed and 3.5 sources specficly state that Orcus isnt a God and never has been a god. Hes Demonlord pure and simple he doesnt get avatars
Uh, it appears that SOMEONE hasen't read Faiths and Pantheons, where Orcus is clearly listed as a Lesser Deity.
And even if he isn't a god, he still gets aspects. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:04:42
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Orcus isnt a God all 3 3ed and 3.5 sources specficly state that Orcus isnt a God and never has been a god. Hes Demonlord pure and simple he doesnt get avatars
Uh, it appears that SOMEONE hasen't read Faiths and Pantheons, where Orcus is clearly listed as a Lesser Deity.
And even if he isn't a god, he still gets aspects.
yep and interestingly enough in PGTF it doesnt say Orcus is a God (it does however say Gargauth is a god)
Aspects of Orcus dont get Wands of orcus all they get is a Large +1 Heavy Mace which is Unholy when the Aspects holding it |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 09 Aug 2006 05:30:56 |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:06:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Orcus isnt a God all 3 3ed and 3.5 sources specficly state that Orcus isnt a God and never has been a god. Hes Demonlord pure and simple he doesnt get avatars
Uh, it appears that SOMEONE hasen't read Faiths and Pantheons, where Orcus is clearly listed as a Lesser Deity.
And even if he isn't a god, he still gets aspects.
yep and interestingly enough in PGTF it doesnt say Orcus is a God (it does however say Gargauth is a god)
Aspects dont get Wands of orcus or all they get is a Large Heavy Mace which is Unholy when the Aspects holding it
Have you ever read the appendix at the back of the book? Where Orcus is listed among the monster deities? |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:09:35
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
Have you ever read the appendix at the back of the book? Where Orcus is listed among the monster deities?
Yes and even the developers have acknowledged that the F&P Monster deity table is incomplete and inaccurate |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:18:35
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Which parts of it?
quote:
Aspects dont get Wands of orcus or all they get is a Large Heavy Mace which is Unholy when the Aspects holding it
Like crunch much?
I don't care what the stats are, it should be considered the Wand of Orcus for historical purposes. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 09 Aug 2006 05:19:24 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:29:37
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Which parts of it?
quote:
Aspects dont get Wands of orcus or all they get is a Large Heavy Mace which is Unholy when the Aspects holding it
Like crunch much?
I don't care what the stats are, it should be considered the Wand of Orcus for historical purposes.
Well your issue is with Erik Mona and the good people at Wizards of the coast |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:33:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
Have you ever read the appendix at the back of the book? Where Orcus is listed among the monster deities?
Yes and even the developers have acknowledged that the F&P Monster deity table is incomplete and inaccurate
Where? What is your proof? Where are you getting all this? I have already stated where I am getting all my info. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:43:16
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
Have you ever read the appendix at the back of the book? Where Orcus is listed among the monster deities?
Yes and even the developers have acknowledged that the F&P Monster deity table is incomplete and inaccurate
Where? What is your proof? Where are you getting all this? I have already stated where I am getting all my info.
Its well known that the the F&P monster table is less than complete for example Bahamuts not on the table (Eric has corrected this omission in DoF) and one of the authors produced an Unofficial update |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:45:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
Have you ever read the appendix at the back of the book? Where Orcus is listed among the monster deities?
Yes and even the developers have acknowledged that the F&P Monster deity table is incomplete and inaccurate
Where? What is your proof? Where are you getting all this? I have already stated where I am getting all my info.
Its well known that the the F&P monster table is less than complete for example Bahamuts not on the table (Eric has corrected this omission in DoF) and one of the authors produced an Unofficial update
And how does this disprove that Orcus is a god?
Plus, the BOVD stated that is is very possible for archfiends to have divine rank. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:47:41
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| BOVD Explicitly states ORCUS IS NOT A GOD this is repeated again in Libris Mortis and HOrdes of the Abysss that cam out this year |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 09 Aug 2006 05:48:12 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:50:10
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| In the BoVD it recommends giving the Archfiends DvR 0 if one wants them to be able to grant divine spells, I believe. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:50:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
BOVD Explicitly states ORCUS IS NOT A GOD this is repeated again in Libris Mortis and HOrdes of the Abysss that cam out this year
But BOVd did say it was possible for Archfiends to gain divine rank.
And I thought we were talking about FR here? Why are we bringing in non-FR products in when he got the nice, pure, FR F&P to refer to, hmmm...
See how your insistance on the fact that FR sources be trusted more than others comes crashing down on you. Because of FR, Orcus is now a god and Gareth only destroyed his avatar, WOOT |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:51:00
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quote:
Well your issue is with Erik Mona and the good people at Wizards of the coast
Not at all.
Eric, who printed this book, already made it quite clear. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 06:05:45
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
In the BoVD it recommends giving the Archfiends DvR 0 if one wants them to be able to grant divine spells, I believe.
Which doesnt make them Gods |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 06:07:41
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| What does DvR make them? |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 06:09:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
In the BoVD it recommends giving the Archfiends DvR 0 if one wants them to be able to grant divine spells, I believe.
Which doesnt make them Gods
For one, BOVD recommended making the fiends DVR 1, not 0, making them gods.
And do you want to base this argument on FR only or everything? I have arguments loaded and ready for both. Pick your poison |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 06:10:38
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
What does DvR make them?
According to F&P their "Quasi deities" |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 06:17:55
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
In the BoVD it recommends giving the Archfiends DvR 0 if one wants them to be able to grant divine spells, I believe.
Which doesnt make them Gods
For one, BOVD recommended making the fiends DVR 1, not 0, making them gods.
Which makes them Demi gods. Demi gods only have ONE AVATAR so this silly multiple wands of Orcus idea (Which is clearly wrong in 3ed anyway)has now been totally blown out of the water. Further more a Demi power can be killed by a mortals |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 06:20:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
What does DvR make them?
According to F&P their "Quasi deities"
Just to clear things up, according to D&DG and F&P, quasis and demigods cannot create avatars.
But since that same F&P book said Orcus was a LESSER DEITY, we can assume that Gareth defeated and avatar wielding the real wand. After the wand was destroyed, Orcus just simply recreated it and moved on.
Gareth didn't strike a great blow to Orcus, he just prevented him from infesting Toril with his foul prescence and damaged his pride.
That what I think what happened.
Like you said, realmslore can never be overruled by non-realmslore. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Edited by - FridayThe13th on 09 Aug 2006 06:23:09 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 06:24:22
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H4 Says it will take Orcus 100 years to rebuild his Wand so no wand until 1459 or 85 years from now
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 06:30:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
H4 Says it will take Orcus 100 years to rebuild his Wand so no wand until 1459 or 85 years from now
I can accept that, as long as you don't say that (sarcasm on) Orcus was "smited" by the noble Paladin Gareth and his foul prescence never touched the multiverse again."
Assuming that Dead Gods happened hundreads of years before bloodstone, I think there should be no contradictions between the two unless orcus is destroyed permenently by a wannabe prime paladin, which is just silly.
So yes, I can accept that it will take Orcus 100 years to rebuild his wand as long as he is not dead. He is too cool to be killed by Gareth
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"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Edited by - FridayThe13th on 09 Aug 2006 06:30:49 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 06:45:53
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| Going to have to disagree that Orcus is "Cool" unneeded is more like it between Kiranshee/Velshoon/Kelemvor/Jergal and even Myrkul running around in the crown of Horns the FR has the whole Undeath/dead thing covered we can safely leave Orcus dead orbanished in the realms |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 07:01:20
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| But none of them have the appeal of a bad@ss demon lord. Anyways Orcus apparently isn't so big on the undeath thing himself, thinking of them more like useful and expendable tools, so he's more than just a God concerning himself wiith death or undeath, he can link into far grander power plays in the Abyss and maybe even other planes outside of Faerun |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 08:16:41
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quote:
Going to have to disagree that Orcus is "Cool" unneeded is more like it between Kiranshee/Velshoon/Kelemvor/Jergal and even Myrkul running around in the crown of Horns the FR has the whole Undeath/dead thing covered we can safely leave Orcus dead orbanished in the realms
Let's see, Kelemvor and Jergal both actively oppose Undead, Kiaransalee is limited entirely to the Underdark, and Velsharoon is under the reigns of Mystra, Azuth, and Talos; and the Crown of Horns only has very local influences.
I really see a need for a prominent "evil" Undeath/Death figure in the Realms. Well, I'd just consider Myrkul still around.
As to unnecessary? The Realms' history is full of "unnecessary" deities of similar portfolios clashing, absorbing, and being defeated by others. It's a large part of what gives the Realms a more realistic feel. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 14:19:42
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And one more thing to be considered:
IMHO, I think that is very uncommon that only the heroes could do the impossible. I mean, only the heroes could throw the One Ring into the volcano? Only the heroes could absorve Mystra´s essence in the ToT and become gods in the end? Only the heroes could stop the wars of Takhisis, put a clown nose in the face of old Sthrad, defeat the Pentex, stop the Jihad, kill Dunkhelzan, and an infinte etc.?
It´s so dificult to imagine that the villains could take mythical quests to "came back" with full power?
In my mind, I think very plausible that an extreme devotee of Orcus (Thrall of Orcus, BoVD) use fell magic to bring Orcus back after the Bloodstone events. So, Orcus take a very mystical/mythical/self-development/extreme/ quest (like the Ring´s Saga, the War of the Lance, ad infinitum), and ended coming back with full power, his wand restored, and influencing the Realms again.
Impossible? Yes.
But the players in all the game tables all around the world do things "impossible" in a daily basis. 
And, my two cents: the imagination of the DM superceds the sourcebooks in all matters. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 17:23:39
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BTW
Dargoth is misrepresenting what Richard Baker, and others, have said about that passage in Faiths & Pantheons. What they really said is this, "The part where it says that there are no other monstrous deities in FR is wrong, since there are more monstrous deities in FR then what is on that list." They've never said that the list itself is wrong, just that there are more deities in FR then what is on that list.
Now, on the other side of the argument, I do agree that the Player's Guide says he can't be a deity but as I said, there are LATER novels that say there ARE deities in the Abyss even though the Player's Guide claims that there are no deities in the Abyss. So, as I've said more then once in this thread, until WOTC can decide which pieces of lore they are using, I don't believe anything they write about the planes since planar lore for FR for the current cosmology changes almost every time a new sourcebook or novel comes out. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 09 Aug 2006 17:29:50 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 17:44:42
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| I think the amount of vacillating as to who's a god and who isn't undermines whatever the latest verdict happens to be. And perhaps suggests that it isn't a simple yes/no matter -- which is most plausible to me. I think the answer to 'Are the elemental lords gods?' is also 'Yes and no'. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 17:59:07
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| This thread has gone around in circles for 8 pages... Maybe we should just give up and wait for a better answer to come down from WotC. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 19:50:55
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"Like you said, realmslore can never be overruled by non-realmslore"
That is so absurd...everyone seems to forget that the Realms is not a game but a campaign world in the game of D&D...and the “core” rules always overrule realmslore...
When the game went from 1st to 2nd Ed. and the barbarian, thief-acrobat, monk and assassin class was taken out so did they disappear in the Realms...when 3rd Ed. came out and changed the rules that a druid can be NG, NE or N then the Realms changed and so did the druid circles and limits to the number of high-level druids when 3rd Ed. removed that rule. And for pity sake, because of the Races of Dragons book there is suddenly a big RetCon and now Bahamut has a big presence in Damara along with bahamut PrCs and the dragonborn PC race (should be a template)...Was Bahamut even mentioned in Rage novel series?
....and there is another thread in Candlekeep explaining how Kaanyr Vhok went from a fighter/rogue/wizard (which was new canon modified from 2nd Ed. canon) to a fighter/sorcerer (even newer canon from a newer 3rd Ed. book) which shows that a RetCon happens after every publishment of every new resource
In 2nd Ed. the Outerplanes linked every campaign world (to a greater or lesser extent) and Planescape was the campaign "world" based in the Outer Planes thus anything in Planescape had a possible ripple effect in the Realms and thus could become Realms canon...Realms canon does not have to actually appear in a book stamped with a "Forgotten Realms" logo
Please don’t tell me that Realms canon is sacred...it is a living collection of facts and details about a D&D campaign world that is always being adapted to changing game mechanics, “core” editions and novel/author visualizations. And the challenge to figure out the mess of “Orcus” in the Realms will take charting the canon about Orcus, the drow goddess and the Bloodstone heroes through three editions of D&D mechanics, rules and canon
I copied this from that Kaanyr Vhok thread, I thought it was pretty (ironically) smart
Retcon = retroactive continuity - a correction that says "this is how it is and how it always was - there was never a different version out there. I don't care if you're staring right at the entry in the old sourcebook that gives those stats: they never existed - these new ones are the ones you use, dammit!"
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This thread has gone around in circles for 8 pages... Maybe we should just give up and wait for a better answer to come down from WotC.
I really don't think that will happen...as I don't think the writers want to step over each other’s toes...this argument has been growing for almost if not over 20 years
I think this debate/problem will never be solved as long as people keep picking and choosing D&D game mechanics from over 3 editions to prove their point...it becomes as redundant as philosophizing over scripture in the Bible...and everyone knows how circular those arguments can be
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Details on Orcus (Timeframe and Details)
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