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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 20:09:56
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No, my friend, there is nothing absurd in this!
Remember, this is a community of FR fans and players/Dms. I think that the majority here is interested in FR, and uses D&D only because is the set of rules used by the setting. So, our primordial sources of npcs, itens, lore, trivia, etc. is the FR books. And if an information in a generic product disagree with an information with a FR product (that have too many facts depending of that specific Realms information), I as a DM of the FR setting, will use the FR reference. Simply. 
If, using an exemple, Book of Nine Swords say that Azoun IV don´t die, he was polymorphed in a half-fey bariaur, and is a counselor of Alusair, I will left old Azoun rest in peace, in my campaigns. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 20:25:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
No, my friend, there is nothing absurd in this!
Remember, this is a community of FR fans and players/Dms. I think that the majority here is interested in FR, and uses D&D only because is the set of rules used by the setting. So, our primordial sources of npcs, itens, lore, trivia, etc. is the FR books. And if an information in a generic product disagree with an information with a FR product (that have too many facts depending of that specific Realms information), I as a DM of the FR setting, will use the FR reference. Simply.
If, using an example, Book of Nine Swords say that Azoun IV don´t die, he was polymorphed in a half-fey bariaur, and is a counselor of Alusair, I will left old Azoun rest in peace, in my campaigns.
I agree with this is a community of FR fans and players/Dms but the Orcus argument is purely a role players argument, an argument that is just as much about core D&D mechanics and rules as much as Realms canon...anyone just loves the Realms for the novels wouldn't get the whole Orcus argument
And I would disregard that example too!  But that is an example of a core book directly and purposely altering For canon, which is not common if not rare...I am speaking more of the indirect ret-con "ripple effect" all core books have on Realms Canon...as an Example the new knight class in the Players Handbook II...not only there may be new NPCs appearing in the Realms with this new class but it may ret-con any older NPC that was anything like a knight...like King Azoun IV.
Then you get the argument on what level Azoun really was, the decisions Azoun made or how he acted based on the knight class abilities (like maybe calling out the Horde Ka-Khan (sp?) in the Empires Trilogy) blah blah blah...that is why new rules/canon shouldn’t immediately trump old canon
I’ll repeat again...the Orcus argument is as much (and causes the most fights/discussions) about core mechanics and rules (god vs demon, real vs avatar, etc.) as it is about Realms canon
And I am in 100% agreement that the DM should decided what canon is "their" canon for their game  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 20:29:48
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I seem to remember seeing somewhere that rules of the specific world will overrule the core rules. This is not my edition, so I can not verify this any further.
That being said, I am of the opinion that rules should never decide lore, the rules should be specified for the world. But, as I said, that's purely subjective. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 20:35:15
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Oh, now I understand better your viewpoint. 
**the dwarf bow in apologize in front of the mage**
So we agree in almost all issues. I will continue to think that, really, with all this contraditory sources about Orcus, someone in need of an explanation more specific will became exaperated. Right now, if I was use Orcus in my campaigns, I will try to solve all with the exemple that I cited above: Orcus discover a nasty way to cancel the 100 years prohibition and came back to the Realms... only to be defeated by my playes.
Chosen of Moradin, stunned with all the modifications created by all those rules, editions, and settings.  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 01:03:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I seem to remember seeing somewhere that rules of the specific world will overrule the core rules. This is not my edition, so I can not verify this any further.
This is true for example Core D&D says Paladins have to follow deities who are either LG, NG, LN the realms however has Paladins of Sune (CG) to take this even further Eberron totally ignores the cleric 2 step alignment rule a Cleric of any god can worship a deity of any alignment. |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 01:49:14
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
"Like you said, realmslore can never be overruled by non-realmslore"
That is so absurd...everyone seems to forget that the Realms is not a game but a campaign world in the game of D&D...and the “core” rules always overrule realmslore...
When the game went from 1st to 2nd Ed. and the barbarian, thief-acrobat, monk and assassin class was taken out so did they disappear in the Realms...when 3rd Ed. came out and changed the rules that a druid can be NG, NE or N then the Realms changed and so did the druid circles and limits to the number of high-level druids when 3rd Ed. removed that rule. And for pity sake, because of the Races of Dragons book there is suddenly a big RetCon and now Bahamut has a big presence in Damara along with bahamut PrCs and the dragonborn PC race (should be a template)...Was Bahamut even mentioned in Rage novel series?
....and there is another thread in Candlekeep explaining how Kaanyr Vhok went from a fighter/rogue/wizard (which was new canon modified from 2nd Ed. canon) to a fighter/sorcerer (even newer canon from a newer 3rd Ed. book) which shows that a RetCon happens after every publishment of every new resource
In 2nd Ed. the Outerplanes linked every campaign world (to a greater or lesser extent) and Planescape was the campaign "world" based in the Outer Planes thus anything in Planescape had a possible ripple effect in the Realms and thus could become Realms canon...Realms canon does not have to actually appear in a book stamped with a "Forgotten Realms" logo
Please don’t tell me that Realms canon is sacred...it is a living collection of facts and details about a D&D campaign world that is always being adapted to changing game mechanics, “core” editions and novel/author visualizations. And the challenge to figure out the mess of “Orcus” in the Realms will take charting the canon about Orcus, the drow goddess and the Bloodstone heroes through three editions of D&D mechanics, rules and canon
I copied this from that Kaanyr Vhok thread, I thought it was pretty (ironically) smart
Retcon = retroactive continuity - a correction that says "this is how it is and how it always was - there was never a different version out there. I don't care if you're staring right at the entry in the old sourcebook that gives those stats: they never existed - these new ones are the ones you use, dammit!"
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
This thread has gone around in circles for 8 pages... Maybe we should just give up and wait for a better answer to come down from WotC.
I really don't think that will happen...as I don't think the writers want to step over each other’s toes...this argument has been growing for almost if not over 20 years
I think this debate/problem will never be solved as long as people keep picking and choosing D&D game mechanics from over 3 editions to prove their point...it becomes as redundant as philosophizing over scripture in the Bible...and everyone knows how circular those arguments can be
Um, if you didn't notice I was using Dargoth's own argument against him. So no need to oppose me.
Yes, I do agree that all D&D settings are "linked" in a way(I love Planescape). I do not agree with those people who want to isolated the settings so they can retain their "originality", which is why I refuse to acknowlage the new FR Pantheon as anything but a different interpretation of the Great Wheel.
And chosen, you are wrong about everyone here just interested in FR. Heck, I like FR, DL, and PS. A lot of people like lots of different settings.
Dargoth, your argument that a multispherical god can be permenatly killed on the prime material by a cheap excuse for a Paladin and his "merry" men is absurd. Even in the realms, where the divine death toll is higher than in most places, this isn't possible. A god shoudn't be have been able to be destroyed permenently by a mortal in any place besides their home plane.
Remember the # 1 fact in this argument, Orcus is NOT FR-only deity, so you can't apply hardliner FR rules to him.
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"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
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"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 02:18:02
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
[br
Remember the # 1 fact in this argument, Orcus is NOT FR-only deity, so you can't apply hardliner FR rules to him.
So let me get this straight Planescape can walk into the realms and change what ever the hell they want but if the Realms changes something in Planescape then its ignored 
Now thats pathetic and my Opinon of Planescape has changed from severe dislike to outright contempt
The sooner the 3ed FR designer dump the Great Wheel and the Bastardised Planescape setting (Which isnt even published anymore) the better |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 10 Aug 2006 02:20:42 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 02:28:57
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Planescape didn't change anything in the Realms.
As Eric has said, they are both canon.
Orcus is originally a Greyhawk deity, by the way. Not 'Planescape.'
.. I forgot, I'm done posting here. Oops. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 10 Aug 2006 02:29:46 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 04:10:15
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>>Allow me to quote from H4
>>After killing Tiamat and her mates
>>"Being careful not to touch this most evil artifact, you move the Wand of Orcus into the >>black stinking blood from the heart of Tiamat it flares in tremendous explosion....."
>>"When the PCs recover from the explosion they see a small white gem where the Wand was."
>>Upon returning to the Bahumut he says
>>"You have succeeded in your mission, and now your realm will be made secure from Demonkind. >>Plant this gem (The one they pulled from Tiamats heart and the Wand of Orcus) in the >>courtyard of your castle, and tend the tree that grows from it....."
>>So not only is it impossible for Kiaransalee to steal a Non existant Wand of Orcus but we >>now know that Orcus didnt put the Wand of Orcus pack together either as a piece of the Wand >>of Orcus still resides in Damara today
>>More on Orcus from Bloodstone Lands
>>"Evil clerics like those of the Goat head religion (Orcus), now find themselves severely >>limited in spell selection, especially in the higher level spells. With Orcus banished, >>there's no one left for them to commune with
>>The Planescape fans are just going to have to accept that as far as the Realms is concerned
Ok, wand is placed in blood, big explosion, then there's some gem? Now, I've watched magician's pull birds from thin air.... its called an illusion. Or rather, just because the wand was there before doesn't mean that the wand became the gem. Maybe the heart of the avatar of Tiamat became this gem, and maybe Kiaransalee used the cover of the explosion to make off with the remnants of the wand? Possible? Yes! |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 04:19:19
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>>"Gareth Dragonsbane, future king of Damara, and his adventuring companions returned from an >>.expedition to the Abyss, having stolen the Wand of Orcus, shattered it in the blood of an >>avatar of Tiamat (checking her plans once again), and returned to Damara with the blessing >>of Bahamut."
>>It didnt teleport off in a flash of light it was destroyed utterly except for one small Gem >>which Gareth Dragonsbane took back to Damara
Shattered is also a very dubious word when it comes to artifacts. For instance, you can "shatter" the dweomers of an item without destroying the physical nature of an item. There's nothing that says that the wand became the gem that I'm reading so far. The gem is known as both the "tree-gem" and the heart of the wand of orcus. Perhaps it is a solidification of the divine energy that was leaked out of the item by being steeped in the blood of a avatar of Tiamat. This would still allow for said item to be stolen by Kiaransalee and hidden away. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 04:23:19
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>>Actually, i rather like the theory that Tenebrous gathered enough divine power from killing >>all those dieties with the Last Word to speed up the recovery of his wand.
Thank you, I was kinda proud of it too. After all, if my idea that the wand had its divine energy "shattered" and leaked out to form the tree gem, it would seem plausible to refill it with the divine energy of another slain deity.
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 04:26:14
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Ok, wand is placed in blood, big explosion, then there's some gem? Now, I've watched magician's pull birds from thin air.... its called an illusion. Or rather, just because the wand was there before doesn't mean that the wand became the gem. Maybe the heart of the avatar of Tiamat became this gem, and maybe Kiaransalee used the cover of the explosion to make off with the remnants of the wand? Possible? Yes!
Possible? NO
Hordes of the Abyss says that the whole Dead gods thing happaned Centurys ago. So Kiaransalee had zero involvement in Gareth Dragonsbane destroying the Wand of Orcus |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 04:27:45
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>>But talking serious, now:
>>Is anyone using Orcus and the wand in his campaigns? And, the campaigns have ties with >>Planescape stuff, so there is some real necessity of all that explanations withou doubt >>about this issue?
>>I´m just curious...
I was running a campaign involving Orcus during the Time of Troubles which was eventually leading towards the ascension of Velsharoon as a deity. The campaign was coming to a culmination whenever hurricane Katrina hit (goddamn hurricane ruined everything <g>). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 04:42:46
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quote:
Hordes of the Abyss says that the whole Dead gods thing happaned Centurys ago. So Kiaransalee had zero involvement in Gareth Dragonsbane destroying the Wand of Orcus
It happened centuries ago according to what timeline?
Eric has said that the flow of events in the Outer Planes (in the Realms cosmology) are not linear and thus not in synch with that of Abeir-Toril. (Without referencing any PS material, mind you.) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 10 Aug 2006 04:43:10 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 04:43:05
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>>Possible? NO
>>Hordes of the Abyss says that the whole Dead gods thing happaned Centurys ago. So >>Kiaransalee had zero involvement in Gareth Dragonsbane destroying the Wand of Orcus
Um, Hordes of the Abyss is NOT an FR resource, correct? Therefore, the time mentioned there may be different than the time mentioned in FR resources! |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 04:52:57
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
>>Possible? NO
>>Hordes of the Abyss says that the whole Dead gods thing happaned Centurys ago. So >>Kiaransalee had zero involvement in Gareth Dragonsbane destroying the Wand of Orcus
Um, Hordes of the Abyss is NOT an FR resource, correct? Therefore, the time mentioned there may be different than the time mentioned in FR resources!
Nor is there any evidience in any FR source book that Gareth had help from Kiaransalee. My rebuttal to your arguement can at least draw from the latest published product that addresses the Orcus issue |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 06:15:06
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| Almost a full page after my earlier comment, and we're still arguing in circles. I'm sorry, but this thread has outlived its purpose. It's locked. |
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Details on Orcus (Timeframe and Details)
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