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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 06:56:41
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quote:
At this point, it might just be better to agree to disagree. Even the words of the designer and writer of the book, which the majority seems to accept, does not satisfy everyone. There is no longer room for discussion, only opportunities to disagree.
Wisdom! |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 07:22:09
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
You'll note that it says "having stolen THE Wand of Orcus..." it doesnt say having Stolen A Wand of Orcus or having stolen an Avatars Wand of Orcus etc
You're arguing the use of ARTICLES OF SPEECH now?
This is just ridiculous.
If you're going to choose to interpret the word 'THE' as being somehow profoundly different from 'A,' then it just shows how rabidly, unnecessarily, and irrationally zealous you are about your stance. Zealots tend to be a little unhinged.
And that being said, I would consider ANY item of ANY deity "THE" for that deity, when one is encountering an avatar. Lathander's Avatar hits with his mace "Dawnbringer" (not the actual name, but anyway), not "Dawnbringer of Lathander's Avatar."
If a DM told me that an Aspect's or Avatar's weapon was "A Wand of Orcus," and not "THE Wand of Orcus," I'd throw the closest drink in his face for being so sloppy in dramatic presentation.
No more ridiculous then you trying to argue that Gareth didnt steal the real Wand of Orcus. Your assertion that Orcus has more than 1 Wand of Orcus is incorrect the the Wand of Orcus is a Major Artifact and to quote from the 3.5 DMG "Major artifacts are unique items- only ONE of each such item exists" Orcus does not have a dozen of them lying around.
According to the HOA WE an Aspects "Wand of Orcus" is a +1 Large Heavy Mace which is Unholy when its in the Aspects hand |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 08 Aug 2006 07:33:56 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 11:25:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Actually they both agree with each other
H4 doesnt say the Wand of Orcus vanished it says it exploded and the only piece left was the gem Gareth took. Id describe that as shattering.
Ah, but that's an interesting part: the gem was there when the wand shattered. But does it actually say the gem was part of the wand? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 12:35:07
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Of course, you can always argue that Orcus had put in place contingencies regarding his wand with respect to an attack from Faerûn. A legacy of his involvement with the Nentyarchs of Narfell. They'd crafted a specific epic contingency magic to safeguard his wand in the waning days of the Great Conflagration. You see, the desperate Narfelli weren't content with summoning aspects of demon lords and princes by the end of that decade-long war, and instead used 'gate' to bring the big guys themselves. Of course, they had to cut deals to obtain such direct, demonic aid and this was Orcus' price - protection of his greatest weapon. He knew that he could always reform if 'slain' (even on the Abyss, as shown by subsequent events), but he didn't wish to be denied his wand for 1 minute, let alone 100 years. So they fixed it. Well, that's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 13:01:51
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By the way Orcus isnt a god and never has been all 3 3ed/3.5 sources (Libris Mortis/Book of Vile Darkness/Hordes of the Abyss)that detail Orcus explicitly say that 1) Orcus isnt a God and 2 that Tenebrous want anything more then undead demon.
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 14:40:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
By the way Orcus isnt a god and never has been all 3 3ed/3.5 sources (Libris Mortis/Book of Vile Darkness/Hordes of the Abyss)that detail Orcus explicitly say that 1) Orcus isnt a God and 2 that Tenebrous want anything more then undead demon.
The 3.x material is all over the map with the issue, which ultimately is because 3.x retroactively removed divinity from those archfiends who were also deities (ostensibly to allow for PCs to kill them and take their stuff...).
The BoVD says one thing, the MotP insinuates a few things but leaves it a mystery, Hordes of the Abyss tip toes around it, and Tome of Magic tries to rephrase the issue saying that Tenebrous was Orcus's temporary divinity or some such. Non deities don't get godisles on the Astral, and Orcus very much had one.
If you want to so nitpick things along with blind adherence to what is said in various cherry-picked 3.x books, regardless of the source material they draw from, and regardless of the out of game reasons for why recent books take certain stances on some topics, it's hard to have a meaningful conversation with you.
And completely aside from anything, can someone source to me to where it says it would take 100 years for Orcus to reform his wand if it was destroyed? This has been tossed around several times, and unless I missed an earlier reply, I'm still at a loss of where this notion actually comes from.
And as another aside, Krash's idea on the topic is a pretty good one. Neat and tidy, and doesn't rely on a 'gods and wierd time stuff, this is not the wand of orcus that you're looking for' jedi-esque mind trick (no disrepect meant, as that's a valid response as well to avoid contradicting sources, though it is a tad frustrating for those of us wanting something more firm). Personally, I'd say that Gareth simply destroyed the wand carried by a distinctly Torillian avatar of Orcus at the time, rather than the actual wand itself back in the Abyss with Orcus himself. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 08 Aug 2006 14:47:37 |
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 15:49:34
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| It is in the H4 Bloodstone module,Revenge of the Demon Prince, under the Further Adventures in Bloodstone Pass it mentions that "It will take a full century for Orcus to rebuild the Wand of Orcus". Actually, i rather like the theory that Tenebrous gathered enough divine power from killing all those dieties with the Last Word to speed up the recovery of his wand. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 16:17:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
It is in the H4 Bloodstone module,Revenge of the Demon Prince, under the Further Adventures in Bloodstone Pass it mentions that "It will take a full century for Orcus to rebuild the Wand of Orcus". Actually,
Ah thank you Ive been going mad trying to find that reference I couldnt remember what book it was in |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 16:56:16
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Furthermore, he was a deity in FR since Faiths & Pantheons says he was, until WOTC decided to remove that in the Player's Guide. Of course, that issue has more problems because the Player's Guide claims that there are no deities in the Abyss, yet there is a deity or two in the Abyss in Lisa's 3/3.5e Psi trilogy and the last novel for that trilogy came out after the Player's Guide.
So, as I said before, until WOTC actually decides which planar setup they are going to stick with and stop these errors, I, for one will never believe them when it comes to issues with the FR planes. Sourcebooks and novels overwrite each other almost each time a new novel/sourcebook comes out.
As I've explained before in this thread. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 08 Aug 2006 17:04:48 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 19:19:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
By the way Orcus isnt a god and never has been all 3 3ed/3.5 sources (Libris Mortis/Book of Vile Darkness/Hordes of the Abyss)that detail Orcus explicitly say that 1) Orcus isnt a God and 2 that Tenebrous want anything more then undead demon.
Orcus was just a big demon in 1st Ed. AD&D
then Orcus was a demi or lesser god in 2nd Ed. AD&D
now Orcus is a pseudo-god/demon in 3rd Ed. D&D
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 19:32:07
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Has anyone ever chronologically tracked the publications of the whole Orcus thing? I have the Bloodstone series and The Great Modron March...I think more of the story is in the Lost Gods...
Another question, has anyone explained the differences of deities and how they were managed from 1st Ed. to 3rd Ed. for the new and/or younger players? I’ll give it a try, but this is all off the top of my head so please forgive any mistakes...
In 1st Ed (the old Deities and Demigods/Legends and Lore hardcover books) the Gods were not much more than mega-monsters or characters...each god had its own stats and anyone with enough power could slay a god (or become one). If you played that long ago you may have heard the (munchkin) stories of the characters who killed Thor, Set, Zeus, etc.
There was no such thing as an avatar or aspect...except in the Forgotten Realms for the Mulhorandi/Untheric Pantheons where the Imaskari barrier forced those gods to create “incarnations” and “manifestations” of themselves...which as far as I know the first hints of what was to come in 2nd Ed. The Outer Planes was still depicted as the Great Wheel and I don’t remember any rules about gods entering the Prime plane either.
Orcus was not even listed as a god in the DD/LL books...he was in the Monster Manual hardcover as one of the unique Demon Lords (which were more powerful than some gods). Thus Orcus could have been killed by a high-level party. Tiamat was also not a goddess but a unique dragon (like Bahamut) and thus could also be slain.
The “Bloodstone” series of modules (H1 Bloodstone Pass, H2 The Mines of Bloodstone, H3 The Bloodstone Wars and H4 The Throne of Bloodstone) were 1st Ed. modules that were not even based in the Forgotten Realms originally (H1-H2 had no reference to the Realms, H4 was the only module with the FR logo) and H1 was a Battlesystem Module (the old miniature system back then).
In 2nd Ed. about everything was changed. Gods no longer had any stats at all, even demi-gods. I was decided that the powers were above that kind of thing. It was very difficult to slay or become a god, and basically to slay/become a god you had to have another god help you (usually a patron to become a god).Gods also could not fully enter the Prime Plane at all, thus they had to send out a piece of them selves, an avatar, to interact directly with the Prime. There was no such thing as an aspect yet either. I also can’t remember anytime earlier in the rules that the Times of Troubles in the Forgotten Realms where a god’s power (now divine rank) was dependent on the number of believers a god had. I also have some vague memory of reading a mortal in the presence of a fully manifest god is destroyed so for mortals a god appears in Avatar form also. Finally to slay a god you had to do it on their home plane (like a demon lord).
It was the Planescape campaign (which wasn’t really a true campaign world as technically every other campaign world interacted [in a greater or lesser extent] with the Planescape world) that the dogma and canon for the Outer/Inner Planes, gods, native outsiders and petitioners really got ironed out. On Hallowed Ground is an excellent canon book explaining the gods and what-not. Planesscape also introduced the ideas of proxies and petitioners and what the afterlife really was like.
Orcus and Tiamat were revised and became gods in 2nd Ed. ranging from demi to intermediate gods...the Monster Mythologybook is usually the definitive book on Orcus the god. As far as I know the drow goddess Kiaransalee did not ever exist in 1st Ed. and was newly created first in the Monster Mythology book.
In 2nd Ed. rules if Orcus was a god then the Bloodstone heroes would not have been able to slay him without deific aid. I have heard some say Bahamut aided them and I am also not sure where it first mentioned when Kiaransalee and Orcus clashed (but in the Demihuman Deities book it mentioned that her flowers unknowingly aided the heroes to defeat Orcus) but it seems to me it is easier to believe that Kiaransalee was the patron of the heroes that slew Orcus. In the 2nd Ed. rules is that both Orcus and Tiamat were slain on their home plane, which would have slain them permanently unless it was their avatars slain, thus they would have been weakened (like Tiamat was).
It was the Forgotten Realms Module FR9 The Bloodstone Lands that cleaned up the 1st Ed. module Bloodstone Series to make it purely FR canon and to iron out any Realms canon bugs left from the series.
In 3rd Ed. they seemed to take a bit from both 1st and 2nd Ed. rules where they kept the Planescape mechanics but “weakened” the gods yet again so that they could theoretically be slain anew by mortals. Tiamat became even a greater goddess, joining the “core” pantheon but the demon lords (Orcus) were demoted to “mega-monsters” again, thus killable...or pseudo-powers (rank 0) gods...but whose worshippers could gain not only spells but PrC powers also. This really muddies the canon over Orcus and what happened in Damara.
And when the Realms went from the “Great Wheel Outer Planes” to the “Great Tree Outer Planes” things got really muddy.
And now the Hordes of the Abyss hardcover says the Kiaransalee/Orcus conflict happened centuries ago!!
I hope this helps a little...at least for everyone to grasp how FUBARed the Orcus debate can be...
And I’m not a big fan of the “Out of Time” explanation as there are or can be hard dates involved with the story line (like the Bloodstone Wars, the founding of Kiaransalee’s city, etc.) and it really can bring logic and canon conflicts between the Prime and the Planes...e.g. with no linear time has Ragnarok occurred? Has the Blood War started/ended? Wouldn’t have Primus and the other gods seen it coming when Orcus killed them?
One example is in The Great Modron March, part of it goes through Undermountain, so it would have to happen some time during the existence of Undermountain.
And I think Planescape in 2nd Ed. was the great linking system to all the campaign worlds (Realms, Greyhawk, Birthright, Ravenloft, etc.) and cannot be dismissed easily
My 2 cents
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 20:04:11
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
In 1st Ed (the old Deities and Demigods/Legends and Lore hardcover books) the Gods were not much more than mega-monsters or characters...each god had its own stats and anyone with enough power could slay a god (or become one). If you played that long ago you may have heard the (munchkin) stories of the characters who killed Thor, Set, Zeus, etc.
That's emphatically not how gods were intended to be used, as is clear from a browse of the introduction to Deities & Demigods ('the idea of a deity fighting mortals "to the death" is absurd'), the DMG's references to divine appearances in the Greyhawk Campaign, etc.quote:
The Outer Planes was still depicted as the Great Wheel...
'Great Wheel' is a Planescape neologism.quote:
Orcus was not even listed as a god in the DD/LL books...he was in the Monster Manual hardcover as one of the unique Demon Lords (which were more powerful than some gods).
1E makes no hard distinction between gods and demon lords/archdevils -- that's another later invention -- and assumes the latter grant spells to clergy.quote:
Thus Orcus could have been killed by a high-level party. Tiamat was also not a goddess but a unique dragon (like Bahamut) and thus could also be slain.
Yes, Orcus or Tiamat could (can) be killed, if you could get past the hundreds of demons or dragons guarding them (Gary has mentioned just this situation) and overcome all the other preparations they've made over aeons.quote:
I also can’t remember anytime earlier in the rules that the Times of Troubles in the Forgotten Realms where a god’s power (now divine rank) was dependent on the number of believers a god had.
Deital power was linked to worshippers before the Avatar Crisis -- see Cyclopedia of the Realms p. 10 -- and isn't completely dependent on it afterwards, either: or (for instance) Waukeen would be far greater and Shar far less.quote:
As far as I know the drow goddess Kiaransalee did not ever exist in 1st Ed. and was newly created first in the Monster Mythology book.
Right, she was created by Carl Sargent.quote:
One example is in The Great Modron March, part of it goes through Undermountain, so it would have to happen some time during the existence of Undermountain.
But that doesn't mean that any kind of linear time occurs on the planes -- I think that would lessen them drastically, literally making them profane rather than sacred. Or that divine events always intersect with the Prime Material in a regular or predictable way. |
Edited by - Faraer on 08 Aug 2006 20:07:30 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 20:15:44
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quote:
That's emphatically not how gods were intended to be used, as is clear from a browse of the introduction to Deities & Demigods ('the idea of a deity fighting mortals "to the death" is absurd'), the DMG's references to divine appearances in the Greyhawk Campaign, etc.
I kinda agree that it's not how it was intended...but yet it not hard to imagine a game letting a character to become so great a hero/villan that he/she can challenge the gods and become one...and the old basic D&D game was choked with "immortal" heros who became gods...so the quote "the idea of a deity fighting mortals "to the death" is absurd" is kind of redundant with where the AD&D game was and where it would be going (ahem...epic rules)
quote:
But that doesn't mean that any kind of linear time occurs on the planes -- I think that would lessen them drastically, literally making them profane rather than sacred. Or that divine events always intersect with the Prime Material in a regular or predictable way.
without linear temporal physics you don't have a begining or and end...so then their is no beginning of the Outer Planes nor end...it does lessen them, I agree...but all publications (and I'm not including Chronomancer) for the Planes are linear and so even is classic (earth mythology), a beginning, middle, end |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
Edited by - Kalin Agrivar on 08 Aug 2006 20:17:44 |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 20:21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
Orcus was just a big demon in 1st Ed. AD&D
then Orcus was a demi or lesser god in 2nd Ed. AD&D
now Orcus is a pseudo-god/demon in 3rd Ed. D&D
Interesting...
I was just a big, lone and poor man in 2002
then I became a boyfriend with a marvelous girl, and with some money to spare in 2004
now I´m a married guy with a "good hoard" in 2006
Interesting how life changes, for me, and for fictional critters...
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Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 20:26:58
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I don't really agree with that last statement Kalin; most pantheistic earth religions have been cyclic without a clear beginning, middle and end. The sources we have are often, as with realmslore written by outsiders with a linear way of thinking.
Now, I agree that it becomes almost impossible to keep any semblance of order in the planscape/Realms /D&D chaos without a form of linear thinking. The backside is when we get to know to many things that should be shadowy and paradoxes of reality and the divine becomes rules questions. A middle ground is in my opinion optimal and that was in many cases overstepped by Planscape. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 20:30:10
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But talking serious, now:
Is anyone using Orcus and the wand in his campaigns? And, the campaigns have ties with Planescape stuff, so there is some real necessity of all that explanations withou doubt about this issue?
I´m just curious... |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 20:38:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I don't really agree with that last statement Kalin; most pantheistic earth religions have been cyclic without a clear beginning, middle and end. The sources we have are often, as with realmslore written by outsiders with a linear way of thinking.
oops, I forgot about the cycle...but like the Norse or even the modern biblical storyline after "the end" there is a new beginning...but that next beginning is never really described nor expanded upon...
so would that mean there is an ultimate beginning and end (like a book) and each cycle is just a chapter?  
oh, and another thing I don't understand is why new canon always trumps older canon, especially when authors admit that there wasn't much communication with the publishers and they even admit afterwords they counterdict existing canon
has anyone ever read "The Rise and Fall of a Dragon King" and the later letter the author wrote of why is was so off Dark Sun canon? |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
Edited by - Kalin Agrivar on 08 Aug 2006 20:40:18 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 20:45:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
But talking serious, now:
Is anyone using Orcus and the wand in his campaigns? And, the campaigns have ties with Planescape stuff, so there is some real necessity of all that explanations withou doubt about this issue?
I´m just curious...
I've used him or his cultists a few times in my email game that is 2 of our years old now that is with the fiendish character but otherwise, not so much. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 20:46:06
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Yes, but many of these thoughts must be seen as philosophical thoughts more than religion for most people; the religions themselves are the continuity of life. The world may have an end and it may begin again, but that is of little relevance to the mortal. One can also see this in the reincarnation thought.
Well, the newer trumps thought is logical from a publishing standpoint, but I have never been to concerned about details of canon, so I don't give first and last much thought, I just go with what is logical to me. When it comes to the fate of the gods and the world beyond the mortals I am sceptical to having a sett canon at all. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 20:50:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
But talking serious, now:
Is anyone using Orcus and the wand in his campaigns? And, the campaigns have ties with Planescape stuff, so there is some real necessity of all that explanations withou doubt about this issue?
I´m just curious...
I'm trying to decide who the patron of the Balor Grintharkh, the past lord of Hellgate Keep would be...I'v decided Orcus (for the ghouls and other undead but I don't like to give him that much power in the Realms (Hellgate Keep, Damara, Narfell, etc.) or Grazzt (for the tiefling breeding programs and just general corruption). Demogorgon is another thought, with Grintharkh's fiendish pterodactyles |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 21:34:35
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I'm trying to decide who the patron of the Balor Grintharkh, the past lord of Hellgate Keep would be...I'v decided Orcus (for the ghouls and other undead but I don't like to give him that much power in the Realms (Hellgate Keep, Damara, Narfell, etc.) or Grazzt (for the tiefling breeding programs and just general corruption). Demogorgon is another thought, with Grintharkh's fiendish pterodactyles
Wow! Good ideas! I´ll vote in Demogorgon with my brain, and in Grazzt with my heart (I always arrange a way to put Grazzt in front of my players since that adventure when they rescue Waukeen) |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 00:13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
And now the Hordes of the Abyss hardcover says the Kiaransalee/Orcus conflict happened centuries ago!!
Actually that line resolves the arguement
quote:
From my post on the 3rd of August
Now the only real question is when did Planescape plot occur?
Which there are 2 potential options
A) The Planescape plot occured before 1359 in which case Orcus has returned from the dead and reclaimed his home in the Abyss and was then crippled and will remain so until at least 1359
B) THe Planescape plot hasnt occured yet and CANT occur until 1459 which means the for all intense of purposes the planescape plot is irrelevant to the current realms
With that line from HoA we now know that A is Correct
As of 1374 Orcus is crippled and Wandless in the Forgotten Realms and he wont have another one until 1459 hes also banished from the realms and unable to grant spells (See Bloodstone Lands)
Orcus of the Forgotten Realms is still crippled and Wandless in 1374 thanks to Gareth Dragonsbane hes still only 15 years into the 100 years its going to take him to make a new one
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 09 Aug 2006 00:15:30 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 02:37:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Now the only real question is when did Planescape plot occur?
The primary events of that cycle: the altered pattern of the Great Modron March, Tenebrous using the The Last Word, and ultimately rising from the dead as Orcus again happened about 5-10 years ago. It's only roughly 5 years post Faction War at present, and the events of Dead Gods took place during the later years of the reign of Factol Hashkar. That pins down the date for those events pretty firmly.
When Kiaransalee killed Orcus, an event prior to the main sequence of the GMM/Dead Gods cycle, is up for debate and sources conflict on the issue. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 09 Aug 2006 02:42:45 |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:20:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
[quote]Originally posted by Dargoth
Now the only real question is when did Planescape plot occur?
The primary events of that cycle: the altered pattern of the Great Modron March, Tenebrous using the The Last Word, and ultimately rising from the dead as Orcus again happened about 5-10 years ago. It's only roughly 5 years post Faction War at present, and the events of Dead Gods took place during the later years of the reign of Factol Hashkar. That pins down the date for those events pretty firmly.
So the big question is, did Bloodstone happen before or after Dead Gods. If it was before, then the Planescape account should win because Orcus is still more of a PS god than a FR one. Plus Bloodstone originally wasn't even part of FR and I don't know if it is Canon, but Dead Gods certainly is PS canon.
If it was after, then the two shoudn't conflict. Orcus revived himself, only to get laid low by Gareth and friends and lose his wand, again .
As for the whole wand thing, assuming that Gareth killed the real Orcus and destroyed the real wand, I don't think either can be permenently destroyed on the Prime, and the wand is literally a part of Orcus. So if Orcus revived on Thanatos, we can only assume his wand was recreated with him.
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"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:28:35
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quote:
Personally, I'd say that Gareth simply destroyed the wand carried by a distinctly Torillian avatar of Orcus at the time, rather than the actual wand itself back in the Abyss with Orcus himself.
That's what I said. :D |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:43:02
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
Personally, I'd say that Gareth simply destroyed the wand carried by a distinctly Torillian avatar of Orcus at the time, rather than the actual wand itself back in the Abyss with Orcus himself.
That's what I said. :D
I know alot of people like the "Torilian Avatar" explaination but I do have a couple of questions:
Like a balor's lighting sword or molydus's axe doesn't an avatar's weapon disappear when the avatar is slain? And if it was an "avatar" wand wouldn't the real Orcus have dispelled/disolved the avatar wand so he wouldn't have taken the power loss when the wand was destroyed and the avatar was slain?
Which edition of D&D are we using for this explaination? I haven't decided on the "Kiaransalee did it centuries ago" theory, but it does sound plausable so far...but it seems to me for that explaination you are taking bits of 1st, 2nd and 3rd planar canon and game mechanics...which often counterdict themselves anyway
And doesn't the fact that Orcus was slain in the Abyss |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:45:25
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Deity rules (and to an extent, all powerful planar beings) should never be clearly pinned down, regardless of edition.
Whatever works, I say. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:57:07
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Deity rules (and to an extent, all powerful planar beings) should never be clearly pinned down, regardless of edition.
Whatever works, I say.
I'm not talking about diety rules as much as game physic/rules...in 1st ed there are no avatars, but this was the time that the Bloodstone series took place...in 2nd Ed. the rules totally changed for gods...and the whole "wand" thing would not have worked unless it actually was the real wand...and now in 3rd Ed. who knows? The books published in 3rd Ed. counterdict themselves, let alone 1st and 2nd Ed. |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
Edited by - Kalin Agrivar on 09 Aug 2006 03:58:57 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 04:03:18
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| The "Torillian" avatar theory doesnt hold water as Ive already said the Wand of Orcus is a unique item ie There is only ONE Wand of Orcus |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 04:33:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
The "Torillian" avatar theory doesnt hold water as Ive already said the Wand of Orcus is a unique item ie There is only ONE Wand of Orcus
I agree with that except for the fact if Orcus can make an avatar (2nd Ed.) then the avatar would have a replica wand..and "avatar wand" thus there is technically more than one wand...and I think that the avatar wand would have disolved at the avatar's death
and I am waiting for someone to say it was an Aspect of Orcus with an "aspect wand"
I think you cannpt escape the fact it was the real Orcus that died...and that probably Kiaransalee was Gareth's patron to slay Orcus
in 2nd Ed. couldn't you also slay a god with a (2nd Ed.) arctifact too? |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Details on Orcus (Timeframe and Details)
Topic Locked
