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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 22:59:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Except for the fact that Richard Baker said that the FR Cosmology has always been this way(ie as presented in the PGTF) and as such has NEVER been a part of the Great Wheel.
Okay and? This isn't entirely true since Serpent Kingdom says that Limbo exists and Ed, when I asked him, said that it's the Limbo of the Wheel/Ring. And there are some other current 3/3.5e novels that reference the Great Wheel/Ring, one of them is Tymora's realm of Brightwater in the plane of Arborea, and we know that this should be false since her plane is supposed to be Brightwater and Arborea is not supposed to exist. So until WOTC actually decides which planes they are going to stick with, or hire editors to catch this stuff, I, for one, won't believe them since the planar canon for FR changes repeatedly when novels or sourcebooks are released.
Even so, so what? Again, WOTC's stance is, "If we haven't overwritten something specifically then it's still canon." And thus, since no one has overwriten the late 2e lore about Orcus, the Planescape, DD, 3e's Manual of the Planes, and 3e's BOVD lore about this event still stands for FR's planes since Orcus is back in canon in 3 current FR sourcebooks.
And since you mentioned the Player's Guide, do remember that Orcus has his layer back in that sourcebook, and so how did he return from the dead? Oh that's right because of the Planescape lore and that is the same lore that is referenced in DD. And so, again, there is FR lore that states how he returned and it was built on the 2e Planescape lore. This, again, is the same lore that is in 3e's Manual of the Planes and BOVD, which is also built on the Planescape lore. Now until WOTC over writes this in FR material, it is canon even though it was from 2e FR and Planescape lore.
However, I'd agree with your stance if there was just only Planescape lore that referenced this event but there isn't. There's Planescape lore, 2e and 3/3.5e FR lore, and current 3/3.5 core lore about this event, plus the two core books are referenced in current 3/3.5e FR sourcebooks. And for that matter, DD references On Hallowed Ground from Planescape and Monte's name is on the resources referenced section on page 1 of DD and he wrote or co-wrote both Dead Gods and the Great Modron March, Colin's name is on that same list as well and he was the other co-writer of Modron March. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 05 Jun 2006 23:30:48 |
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NiTessine
Acolyte
Finland
34 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 23:13:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
The thing that really gets up my nose though is that Realmlore has to be rewritten because of events in another setting (Ie Planescape)
Yeah, I don't like the new cosmology either. That was rewritten after Die, Vecna, Die!, which is not a Forgotten Realms book.
Admittedly, it's probably fairer to say that DVD was written because of the cosmology change, but it still is one of the most heavy-handed retcons in the history of D&D, as well as the greatest single source of contradictions between sources in the entire corpus of canon D&D.
It helps if you view it all like I do - as a single setting, that is just very, very large. I suspect, in fact, that it is the largest of all. |
http://nitessine.wordpress.com/
Worlds in a Handful of Dice |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2006 : 01:09:18
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quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
Hey I was just about to post the Necromancer Game link. :-) (Also I believe Bwimb may have appeared in another Planescape product, but my memory may be faulty.)
The 2e Inner Planes accessory.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2006 : 01:19:05
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Actually, I have been thinking about this recently, and I think we are all right (best way to resolve any dispute,  )
First, most of the deities that have their own outer planes in the "new" Realms cosmology had planar domains with the same names and similar traits in earlier editions. There are a few exceptions, but for the most part, this seems to be the case.
Second, lets look at what happened in Ressurection. Lolth pulled her planar domain free of the Abyss and created her own outer plane!
In 1st edition, and for much of 2nd edition, all of the outer planes were based on alignment. The reason they were divided was based on alignment.
Now, in 3rd edition, we have seen that there are several outer planes, admitedly not connected directly to the Great Wheel, but referenced, that are not based on alignment.
Also, in 2nd editon we already had the Cynosure, which, while you could argue it was a demiplane, was a meeting place of the gods that was neutral and not based on alignment. Could mean something, could just be a nice sealed demiplane.
Now, think about this. What if, over time, every god or group of gods essentially did what Lolth did. Eventually they pulled their planar domain out of the outer plane that they originally founded their realm in. Dweomer's Heart originally waspart of Mechanus, based on this logic, but at some point in time, Mystra pulled the domain free and made it its own plane.
The Great Tree and the River of Blood were constructs that the gods, or perhaps Ao, created to bind together the new domains that they had slowly pulled from the other outer planes. For whatever reason, the Nine Hells, the Abyss, and through the House of the Triad, the Seven Heavens are still more or less directly connected to the "Realms side" of the planes, but other planes have lost their direct connections (Limbo, Pandemonium, Gehenna, Acheron, etc.). There may still be connections deep within the planes that wrenched free of them, but in general, through the "Faerun" side of the planes there isn't an easy way to reach them.
The gods could have done this to give themselves more of a buffer from outside powers affecting their own plans, or Ao could have influenced this to keep the gods more focused on Toril and what he wanted them to do there.
There could even be a certain magical "tag" that follows anyone that travels the planes from a point originating in Toril that shuts down portals to other planes not part of the Faerunian planar structure. If that same character travelled through a portal or the plane of Shadows to Oerth and entered the planes, they might be able to access the Limbo, etc. but not any of the Realmsian planes. But travellers from both sides of the coin could reach the Abyss, the Nine Hells, and perhaps the Seven Heavens.
The "planar independance" and the planar bridge structures could simply be mechanisms to keep influence in Toril from Toril's gods. The common folk, or even those fairly well versed in "general" knowledge of the Planes always thought that there was a Fugue Plain, a Fury's Heart, etc., but never really knew that they were part of a larger plane. So to them it would not be a change in cosmologies anyway.
The astral plane would actually be the same, but Toril visitors could neither see nor access other color pools, in a way to filter out color pools to planes that didn't have "diplomatic relations" with Toril.
Just something I've been batting around. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2006 : 01:20:09
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| BTW, wouldn't Mintassan be an excellent guide to Toril's cosmology, and how it really works? |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2006 : 08:55:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Except for the fact that Richard Baker said that the FR Cosmology has always been this way(ie as presented in the PGTF) and as such has NEVER been a part of the Great Wheel.
Okay and? This isn't entirely true since Serpent Kingdom says that Limbo exists and Ed, when I asked him, said that it's the Limbo of the Wheel/Ring. And there are some other current 3/3.5e novels that reference the Great Wheel/Ring, one of them is Tymora's realm of Brightwater in the plane of Arborea, and we know that this should be false since her plane is supposed to be Brightwater and Arborea is not supposed to exist. So until WOTC actually decides which planes they are going to stick with, or hire editors to catch this stuff, I, for one, won't believe them since the planar canon for FR changes repeatedly when novels or sourcebooks are released.
Which is another reason why I dont like Serpent Kingdoms (Outside of the appallingly scattered Format and the complete lack of maps)To be blunt Ed the Wizards FR design team and the authors need to get their act together and sort out the realms cosmology this whole one FR author using the old cosmology and one author using the new cosmology is just annoying. A number of FR authors have been using planes that dont exist in the "Official" 3ed cosmology
If Limbo exists in the realms why wasnt it included in the PGTF? Why havent we at the very least even seen some Errata for PGTF adding Limbo to the list of Planes?
As for Orcus in the Realms hes a unecessary waste of space who the designers should have left dead he serves no purpose in the realms what so ever, if the old goat ever did rear his ugly head it would be a race between Jergal, Kelemvor, Kiraenshee and Velshoon to see who would kill him first. In pandering to the Planescape setting theyve ripped wholes in the established realms lore.
All I can say is Id hate to be the FR designer who has to write the source book for Damara because the Gareth Dragonsbane story has been FUBAR because of these Planescape modules and makes no sense.
Why did Gareth travel to the Abyss?
Why did the Witch kings undead army collpse when Gareth came back?
Why did Orcus clerics loose their spells after Gareth went to the Abyss?
Where did the seed for the Tree that keeps Demons out of Damara come from?
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Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2006 : 09:22:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
If Limbo exists in the realms why wasnt it included in the PGTF? Why havent we at the very least even seen some Errata for PGTF adding Limbo to the list of Planes?
As for Orcus in the Realms hes a unecessary waste of space who the designers should have left dead he serves no purpose in the realms what so ever, if the old goat ever did rear his ugly head it would be a race between Jergal, Kelemvor, Kiraenshee and Velshoon to see who would kill him first. In pandering to the Planescape setting theyve ripped wholes in the established realms lore.
All I can say is Id hate to be the FR designer who has to write the source book for Damara because the Gareth Dragonsbane story has been FUBAR because of these Planescape modules and makes no sense.
Why did Gareth travel to the Abyss?
Why did the Witch kings undead army collpse when Gareth came back?
Why did Orcus clerics loose their spells after Gareth went to the Abyss?
Where did the seed for the Tree that keeps Demons out of Damara come from?
Well, the same could be asked about why we haven't seen any mention of the quasi and the other elemental planes that were added in, and they aren't mentioned in the Player's Guide but they are mentioned in Kazaf's entry in Champions of Ruin. Eric added the Far Realm into the cosmology as well in the Waterdeep sourcebook and that wasn't mentioned in either the FRCS or the Player's Guide. Serpent Kingdoms added Limbo. Lisa added the Outlands back in with her psi novels. If you really want to get technical about this, there's even a NPC, in the early preFRCS modules for FR, that has visited Krynn in Dragonlance's cosmology and that module is a early 3e FR module. All of these novels and sourcebooks, except Into the Dragon's Lair, came out after the Player's Guide.
Shrug, maybe it's because WOTC keeps changing thier minds or because the FRCS and the Player's Guide aren't the end all be all on the new cosmology for FR and so those two main sourcebooks only give a sample of the new planes that might be included and new novels or sourcebooks can add to or change them. Plus, you can only fit so much in a 160 plus odd page sourcebook, as Wooly said in another thread earlier today when Zanan was asking about the Infinite Staircase. Oh look, btw, that's another way Modrons could have marched across FR's planes and even from Greyhawks since some of the planar pathways stretch across the different cosmologies and this was backed up by Rich, at least for the Staircase, just in case you want to argue about it. :) I have the quotes or they should still be in my WOTC FR FAQ, if it's still on the WOTC boards.
And you said something that some of us have been complaining about for, what is it now?, four or five years? That's all we've asked for, is for WOTC to actually decide on which cosmology they are going to use and stick with it, but so far that hasn't happened. Why do you think some of us don't bother with the new cosmology? Well that is part of the reason, for me at least, and because it was retconned in to pander, since you love that word, to the nonPlanescape crowd. But you said it yourself, you don't like the holes in the lore, well how do you think some of us feel since it made errors going all the way back to 1e lore.
Pandering to the Planescape crowd? Wow, that's a stretch since he returned in 2e when there was just one cosmology and removing him in 3e would be pandering to the people who feel that he doesn't "belong" and since you don't want those glaring holes to exist, that would cause another error in the lore. Yeah, talk about pandering to the people who aren't Planescapers. You asked for FR lore that shows that he returned and you have it. It's in DD, UE, F&P, and the Player's Guide. You could, since as I said this three times now, also include 3e's Manual of the Planes and BOVD since both of those sourcebooks are referenced in current FR sourcebooks.
The Bloodstone sourcebook, if you read my other replies, tells us where the seed came from. The Platinum Dragon, who doesn't supposedly exist, remember, since WOTC supposedly removed him from the setting, gave it to Gareth and company. Actually, that sourcebook answers all four of your questions and it's right at the beginning pages in the history section. Hopefully Dragons of Faerun will return the Platinum Dragon back to the world.
Really Dargoth, I see three or four options here about the cosmology.
1) use the 1e and 2e version.
2) use the 3/3.5e version but be prepared to be disappointed when WOTC changes it, which they constantly do.
3) make your own.
4) combine the two together.
Either way, 1 and 2 are going to cause errors in the lore. #2 has already done so and if you don't like those errors, well, neither do some of us but they exist and so... I guess we deal with them. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 06 Jun 2006 10:25:48 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2006 : 11:37:14
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| or I take 2 and ignore everything Wizards put out from now on.... |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2006 : 03:04:04
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>>Necromancer Games has compiled A Brief History of Orcus, referencing a number of 1E and 2E >>sources for the demon prince. It was a very valuable tool in figuring out a timeline.
Wow, now that was an interesting read. Okay, so let's say we accept that Gareth and Company found the wand in Pandemonium and stole it away thus making the last word overcome the form of tenebrous. Why did Bahamut send Gareth there to get it? Maybe Bahamut had a clue to Tenebrous' activities. Why did he have them bathe it in Tiamat's blood? Well, if you have an enemy and you have a powerful group of adventurers who could hurt your enemy..... all in the name of the greater good.... what's a little lie like "bathing the wand in Tiamat's Blood will destroy it".
Of course, the wand can transport itself, and possibly being bathed in the blood of a deity had some effect upon it removed whatever was inhibiting it from transporting away from Gareth and Company? Thus how it came to transport itself unto the crypt of the demi-lich Blaise and was recovered by Qah-Namog, who prepared to perform the ritual to revive tenebrous. Anubis then warned Gareth and Company of Qah-Namog's activities, interrupted his ritual, and thus Orcus was revived in his lesser demonic form. This would also explain why Orcus is a bit peeved at Qah-Namog in the Book of Vile Darkness. That some of his essence remained frozen on the astral along with some visages adds some fuel to the idea that this remaining essence was that which comprised Tenebrous. The fact that Tenebrous exists as a vestige for pact magic users adds further weight that this leftover essence is striving to return to the world somehow (perhaps when the frozen visages on the astral are destroyed their essence actually leaks to the strange existence where vestiges come from, thus why they disappear with a strange cackling).
>>As he raced to get it though, a group of powerful mortal
>>heroes arrived there first, having detected Tenebrous’s depredations, and either
>>.destroyed the Wand or sent it away, it is unclear which.28 Either way though, the
>>result was the same. After all the years spent plotting and planning since his
>>partial resurrection, Tenebrous’s time had run out, and with the Wand of Orcus
>>again out of reach, nothing could stop the Last Word’s power from killing him
>>again. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 12:03:32
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Before we go to far away from the topic ...
The involvement of Kiaransalee and her followers in the downfall of the Witch-King and thus Orcus within Realmspace is accepted, I guess?
Demihuman Deities gives a date for the re-establishment of V'elddrinnsshar, 1337 D.R.. It also says that due to the drow's activities, a lot of the followers of Orcus perished unbeknownst to Dragonsbane and his Damarrans. One would guess that the few drow which arrived in 1337 were not that numerous at first, so the date for the Witch-King's and thus Orcus' fall could be set for 1359, as written in the FRCS (3E). Events of the adventure series remain just that, events in an adventure series. The Wizards have and will decide what happened/-s, much like the Waukeen affair or events surrounding Irae T'sarran in Maerimydra. On the basis of that (and paralles drawn to Lolth) one should not go overboard with affairs in Planescape lands and Faerûnian timescales. Orcus is the exceptional exception and why he needed a return to Realmspace is beyond me. The other demonlords are there in plenty and Kia could very well have blocked any influence he's had despite the events on the Core Thanatos. Just take other gods who bar the return of aliases as an example (e.g., Lolth/Finder - Moander; Shar/Lolth - Ibrandul).
Now it has happened though and Orcus is back as a powerful and worship-able demonlord. Do I need a detailed description how that could be possible? On the basis of the F&A series regarding the killing and re-killing and re-birth of deities (or quasi-deities)? Well, it would have been a nice gesture. I doubt that he will play a major role in the Realms though, so I spare myself wasting more life energy on that issue. The Banshee Knights et al will make sure that not too many goathead friends will walk Realmspace anyway. And we should remember that no sources on the story up to now does not mean that there will never be any sources on the story. We may just have to wait and see. Perhaps there is a Cold Lands supplement in the making? |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 16 Jun 2006 12:07:29 |
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Zeboaster of Ordulin
Acolyte
USA
14 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 15:22:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
But an FR product does say what happened to the wand since DD says Kiren hid it, which is the same as Planescape lore.... This does conflict with FR's Bloodstone sourcebook though.
And in 2e that wasn't the case, since the settings were interconnected and since there's nothing that overwrites the Orcus events in 3e/3.5e FR lore, the old lore is still canon since that is what WOTC has said in how the old lore stands.
I remember reading something about the Wand suggesting that what Gareth destroyed was not the true Wand of Orcus, but a powerful look-alike. Was that something from literature, or am I remembering an old discussion on this subject from REALMS-L?
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Zeboaster, a distinguised character known for his sarcasm and perfumed beard, is currently in hiding after making one too many witty and/or truthful remarks.
FRA p96 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 17:14:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeboaster of Ordulin
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
But an FR product does say what happened to the wand since DD says Kiren hid it, which is the same as Planescape lore.... This does conflict with FR's Bloodstone sourcebook though.
And in 2e that wasn't the case, since the settings were interconnected and since there's nothing that overwrites the Orcus events in 3e/3.5e FR lore, the old lore is still canon since that is what WOTC has said in how the old lore stands.
I remember reading something about the Wand suggesting that what Gareth destroyed was not the true Wand of Orcus, but a powerful look-alike. Was that something from literature, or am I remembering an old discussion on this subject from REALMS-L?
I'm not sure, that doesn't ring any bells for me but it might exist somewhere but if it does it's not something I recall reading or remember. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 03:51:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Grin.
Well, I don't see the conflict since the Tiamat entry doesn't specifically say, at least the one you posted doesn't, that the wand was involved.... But hey, maybe go pester Eric about it. :) And DD came out after P&P and as I said above DD references the Planescape modules more then the 1e modules, at least in terms of Orcus's wand.
We'll now it does
From the History of Dragonkind section of Dragons of Faerun
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802b&page=1
quote:
In the Year of Serpent (1359 DR), Gareth Dragonsbane, future king of Damara, and his adventuring companions returned from an expedition to the Abyss, having stolen the Wand of Orcus, shattered it in the blood of an avatar of Tiamat (checking her plans once again), and returned to Damara with the blessing of Bahamut. Gareth brought with him the Tree-Gem, which, once planted, represented Bahamut's covenant to protect Damara against the influence of demons as long as the kingdom of Damara allied itself with the forces of good. In so doing, Gareth brought to Damara a measure of peace and freedom from demonic meddling that the rest of the Demonlands has never experienced.
This confirms that Gareth destroyed the Wand of Orcus in a 3.5 product. This has completely invalidated the Planescape modules detailing Orcus return as they cant happan in the Realms both on a Cosmology and Timeline level
Kiaransalee cant steal the Wand of Orcus as its already been destroyed by Gareth in 1359 and there wont be another one until 1459 (Its been D&D Lore since 1ed that it would take Orcus 100 years to rebuild it)
As I see it there are only 2 options
1) Gareth destroyed the Wand of Orcus, a crippled Orcus is currently in the 15th of his 100 year quest to rebuild the Wand of Orcus (Ie We completely ignore the Planescape modules: Kiaransalee never killed Orcus and never stole the Wand of Orcus.)
2) We advance the Planescape plot as far as we can without violating Realmslore ie Gareth Dragonsbane destroyed the Wand of orcus, Kiransalee kills a crippled Orcus she doesnt steal the Wand of Orcus as it doesnt exist. Orcus is dead we ignore the rest of the Planescape material as it doesnt work in the realms. Any clerics of Orcus in todays realms have either taken the Servant of the fallen feat or there spells are being granted by another deity (either Kiransalee or Velshoon)
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 04:30:10
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Or we complain to Eric because he ignored his own lore from Demihuman Deities, if he is the one that wrote that change.
Another stupid retcon, whatever.
And it doesn't work for your number two because then Eric also ignored three or four other 3/3.5e FR sourcebooks that says Orcus is alive and well and he IS granting spells to his divine casters. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 03 Aug 2006 04:44:23 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 04:45:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Or we bitch at Eric cause he ignored his own lore from Demihuman Deities.
Another stupid retcon, whatever.
The DhD was a retcon of earlier FR material all Eric has done in Dragons of Faerun was to validated in the original primary source ie H1-4 and Bloodstone
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 04:50:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Or we bitch at Eric cause he ignored his own lore from Demihuman Deities.
Another stupid retcon, whatever.
The DhD was a retcon of earlier FR material all Eric has done in Dragons of Faerun was to validated in the original primary source ie H1-4 and Bloodstone
Actually it wasn't, as I said clearly to you before, if you read these posts. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 03 Aug 2006 04:54:09 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 04:56:59
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| Person whose really responsible for this Mess is Monte Cook or whoever came up with the Planescape plot for these adventures they should have checked that their Planescape plot wasnt going to contradict existing material |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 05:05:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Person whose really responsible for this Mess is Monte Cook or whoever came up with the Planescape plot for these adventures they should have checked that their Planescape plot wasnt going to contradict existing material
Still going to disagree here because we have a in game explaination on these events. Eric, or who ever wrote that part of Dragons, decided to ignore the more recent 2e to 3.5e material from FR, from Core, and from Planescape.
Now, if there wasn't a in game explaination, which there was, then I'd agree with you. However, there's no current in game explaination on why WOTC decided to ignore their own lore about these events in Dragons. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 03 Aug 2006 05:07:02 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 06:00:11
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It may have just been a replica of Orcus's wand. Or perhaps they shattered the wand of his AVATAR....
That would work well, in my opinion. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 06:15:47
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Or we say that the 1E lore was incorrect, or that Orcus found a way to reform his wand in less time.
Or we could stop arguing about it. I'm getting tired of some of these repetitious discussions. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 06:16:34
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The hamster has spoken!
*Flees* |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 06:19:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Or we say that the 1E lore was incorrect, or that Orcus found a way to reform his wand in less time.
Or we could stop arguing about it. I'm getting tired of some of these repetitious discussions.
As am I, but since Dargoth can't rant about the Bhaalspawn any more, it seems that he decided that this is his new personal rant. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 03 Aug 2006 06:19:46 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 07:27:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Or we say that the 1E lore was incorrect, or that Orcus found a way to reform his wand in less time.
Or we could stop arguing about it. I'm getting tired of some of these repetitious discussions.
FR material should never be over written by events from another setting
Thankfully Wotc (and apparently Eric) share this view (Ie Greyhawk Lolth being dead doesnt make FR Lolth dead) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 07:30:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Or we say that the 1E lore was incorrect, or that Orcus found a way to reform his wand in less time.
Or we could stop arguing about it. I'm getting tired of some of these repetitious discussions.
FR material should never be over written by events from another setting
Thankfully Wotc (and apparently Eric) share this view (Ie Greyhawk Lolth being dead doesnt make FR Lolth dead)
She's not dead in Greyhawk and you've said it yourself, you don't like retcons. Well FR lore shouldn't be retconn'd either. Now, I thought this was clear the last time we've discussed this. Make up your mind.
Hell's WOTC can't make up their minds about the rest of the planar lore either, as I've said before to you, which you seem to be ignoring as well. And they shouldn't retcon 3/3.5e FR lore either. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 03 Aug 2006 07:33:55 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 07:59:50
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The dynamics of game design in a shared world environment is never as simple as "should" or "shouldn't" make changes or ret-con previous material.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 08:48:36
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At least the discussions that lead to the conclusions of those "shoulds" or "shouldn'ts" aren't simple. ;)
Everyone makes their own stances on the shoulds and the shouldn'ts... That's what ethics is all about, in large part.
Personally, I agree with Kuje. But that's a conclusion made from one person who doesn't know everything that's going on. But, to me, the fact that to Ed CONTINUITY is paramount in his Realms means that unless a retcon is making something more continuous, it shouldn't be done (according to me, and me only).
Oops, there I am using that "shouldn't" word again. Bad me. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 11:38:50
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Well ... the new cosmology of the FR clearly says that whatever happens elsewhere happens elsewhere. Dunno what it is with Orcus and his death and return stuff. He must have cast a massive charm on a designer to make him reappear time and again ... when he isn't that special at all.
He and Graz'zt are back in FR business right now ... and I can live with that. What happens in Narratyr does not concern me in the slightest though. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 03 Aug 2006 11:39:41 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 11:56:35
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He was special because he was one of the first Abyssal Lords ever to see print... Just like Athenian democracy was special, at the time of its inception.
And the new cosmology Realms sources (PGtF) also says that Orcus's wand was never destroyed... |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 12:06:09
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As Tom mentioned in another thread and I've said repeatedly with respect to the Dawn Cataclysm, the ways (and timeline) of the gods is not linear. All we know is when mortals have interacted with the gods, but even a linear progression of such mortal events does not imply an order among deific events.
I've always considered the events in Dead Gods (Kiaransalee's abduction of the Wand of Orcus and the numerous deaths and rebirths of Orcus) and the events in the Bloodstone Lands (Gareth and company's destruction of the Wand of Orcus) to BOTH be true.
There are many ways to explain the apparent inconsistencies, from timeline manipulation (did the theft occur in the future or the distant path?), to deception (did the visages convince Gareth and company that something happened when it did not unfold in the way they perceived it?), to multiple wands (is one wand an "aspect" of the other?), to interaction (did the actions of Gareth and company weaken Orcus at one of the many points of the demon lord's interaction with Kiaransalee and thereby precipitate one of his defeats?).
Pick one or all or none that works for you in your campaign. I think published Realmslore should continue to be ambiguous as to which is true, if either.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
Edited by - ericlboyd on 03 Aug 2006 12:07:02 |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 14:36:35
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Um, I am pretty sure that Orcus is still alive and that he has his wand back.
Just because Gareth Dragonsbane destroyed Orcus on the Prime Material dosen't mean he is gone permenatly. I think you had to have killed the Demonlord on his home plane(abyss) on his home layer(thanatos) going against him at full power to permenatly destroy him.(and I don't know any mortal hat can do that)
For all I know, Gareth might have just killed an aspect of Orcus.
As for the issue with the FR cosmology, I have always taken things this way. The various godly planes of Forgotten Realms cosmology are just specific deitiefic realms in the much larger planes of the Great Wheel. Ex: House of the Triad is the Triad's godly realm in Celestia, Barrens of Doom and Despair are part of Acheron, Fury's Heart is part of Pandemonium, etc.
Oh, and there has been a reference to Limbo in FR lore. In Chapter Three of the HoTU campaign the Githzerai in the city clearly tell you that they are from Limbo. Now I am not sure if this is legitamate or not, but it is something.
I have never liked the Great Tree cosmology's attempts to cut off FR from Core D&D and Planescape. There are just far too many connections between the two to really separate them. Khelben Arusun's own grandson LIVES in Oerth for crying out loud. And I found one thing omline saying that the Witch-king was involved in the Temple of Elemental Evil plot. and if some people have any doubts, Sigil does exist in FR cosmology, Rich Baker stated it right here in this thread:http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=129535
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-- Torilian Prime
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Details on Orcus (Timeframe and Details)
Topic Locked
