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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jun 2006 : 21:55:25
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Hello my fellow scribes. I was just wondering if any symbols or colors are specifically associated with Orcus other than the Rod of Orcus (since that was is pretty obvious). I was wanting a cult of Orcus to move into Skullport somewhat subtlely, so that its not obvious who the cultists worship, and I was wondering if there was a set of colors or alternate symbols for the Prince of the Undead.
Also, I'm pretty sure that there shouldn't be a problem, but I am assuming that by 1370 DR Orcus had come back from his stint as Tenebrous, but I thought I would throw that in as well, to make sure my timeline isn't off.
Thanks all.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11809 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2006 : 22:55:34
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Yeah, they have never really given us a timeline for when Orcus was slain by Gareth Dragonsbane and company (somehow with the involvement of Kiaransalee which is not detailed... but what a story it would make). However, it presumably happened right before the ToT because he was still in the outer planes when they met up with him and Zhengyi didn't suffer any problems from Orcus being in avatar form or somesuch. When he came back from being tenebrous also isn't detailed, but yeah I'd think that's a safe timeline.
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2006 : 23:15:18
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| Considering the Planescape events that bring Orcus back cant occur in the FR due to the new cosmology Id say Orcus should stay dead. In anycase Orcus should not be able to put in a new appearance in the realms for just under 100 years anyway as Gareth Dragonsbane destroyed the Wand of Orcus in 1359 and it will take Orcus 100 years to rebuild it. |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2006 : 23:17:12
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Orcus has to be back by 1372 since he has a cleric in Unapproachable East and yes, Dargoth, we've been over this before. You might not like it, but he did return. :)
As for his death and his return, I'd place it between 1360 and 1365. The Great Modron March and Dead Gods came out in 1997 and during those years TSR/WOTC released the Lands of Intrigue boxed set and Castle Spulzeer. The info from the LoI box set is listed in the FRCS timeline and so, to me, that narrows down Orcus's return to sometime after the Witch-king dying, which is 1359 and UE, I believe is dated for 1372. I'm using published Earth dates because they make more sense to me. However, Demihuman Deities came out in 1998 and it mentions the events from The Great Modron March and Dead Gods and so whatever the in game year is for DD is probably when Orcus returned since it says that his return was a recent event.
However, DD mentions that Ghaunadaur's clergy tried to take over the Promanade in 1368 so maybe we should move the date up to around 1368 or 1369. DD, in the Dumathoin entry, also references Undermountain: The Lost Level. That module says the ToT's happened 11 years ago and so that helps narrow DD down to around 1369. Now, further reading show that in the Angharradh and Corellon entries the date of 1371 is referenced because of the the Evermeet novel events. Arvoreen's entry has the dates of 1367 and 1370.
Wow, this book really does jump all over for dates. So in conclusion, now that I looked through DD, I'd place his return sometime between 1367 and 1371. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 04 Jun 2006 00:46:23 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2006 : 23:37:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Orcus has to be back by 1372 since he has a cleric in Unapproachable East and yes, Dargoth, we've been over this before. You might not like it, but he did return. :)
Yep and theres a cleric of Bhaal running around in LEOF but Bhaals not back either. So having a Cleric running around doesnt mean their patrons alive and well |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2006 : 23:42:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Orcus has to be back by 1372 since he has a cleric in Unapproachable East and yes, Dargoth, we've been over this before. You might not like it, but he did return. :)
Yep and theres a cleric of Bhaal running around in LEOF but Bhaals not back either. So having a Cleric running around doesnt mean their patrons alive and well
Yes, yes, Dargoth fine fine, except we also know he's back because he has a realm in Faiths & Pantheons where he's mentioned as a active deity, the cleric in UE, the realm in the Player's Guide, etc. Now, if you don't got anything constructive to add, then don't reply. :) Oh and the events in Demihuman Deities also helps support him being alive, which I listed above, and so there is NO 3/3.5e lore that states he is dead. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 03 Jun 2006 23:59:33 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2006 : 23:49:57
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What ever Kuje if your willing to accept Wizards "Because we said so" appraoch to realmslore then I guess thats up to you
The fact is that Orcus return is just another stupid inconistency Wizards have created in the Realms timeline which they failed to provide any explaination. |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2006 : 23:51:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
What ever Kuje if your willing to accept Wizards "Because we said so" appraoch to realmslore then I guess thats up to you
The fact is that Orcus return is just another stupid inconistency Wizards have created in the Realms timeline which they failed to provide any explaination.
Nope, I accept the canon events that brought back his return both in FR lore and Planescape lore. It's not even a WOTC "Because we said so" approach since there are canon events, again, in both FR lore and Planescape lore.
So again, if you don't like it, cool but this doesn't help narrow down when his returned happened.
Oh and read DD, she didn't destroy the wand she just hid it and so he doesn't need 100 years to reform it. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 03 Jun 2006 23:55:14 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2006 : 23:59:36
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| Considering neither Modrons or Mechanus exist in the FR cosmology the march of the Modrons can never of happaned. The new FR cosmology almost completely divorces the realms from the Great Wheel Planescape events are irrelevant to the 3ed Realms ie Orcus may have resurrected himself with the March of the Modrons but that only applies to setting attached to the Great Wheel exists (Which the realms isnt) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2006 : 00:09:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Oh and read DD, she didn't destroy the wand she just hid it and so he doesn't need 100 years to reform it.
Which is ANOTHER inconsistency because Gareth Dragonsbane did Destroy the Wand of Orcus its a REALM FACT he stole the Wand of Orcus killed one of Tiamats avatars and plunged the Wand into Tiamats heart destroying it utterly. We also knoiw for fact thats its broken because after Gareth killed Tiamat and destroyed the Wand Bahamut told Gareth to take a piece of it and plant it in Damera and this would stop Demons from ever entering the Kingdom. And we can date this event at around 1359 this means Orcus even if he some how finds (Because the March of the Modrons wont work in the realms) another way to get around Kirranshee killing him its still going to take until 1459 DR to replace it |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2006 : 00:11:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Considering neither Modrons or Mechanus exist in the FR cosmology the march of the Modrons can never of happaned. The new FR cosmology almost completely divorces the realms from the Great Wheel Planescape events are irrelevant to the 3ed Realms ie Orcus may have resurrected himself with the March of the Modrons but that only applies to setting attached to the Great Wheel exists (Which the realms isnt)
Says you, except we know that Limbo of the Wheel/Ring exists in the FR cosmology since Ed has said as much. Sigil still exists and it's the same Sigil and so there are ways that Modrons can still get to FR's cosmology. Hells, they could even go through the Shadow Plane. Plus they could use the portals that exist to the other cosmologies since FR is still riddled with portals. There's nothing that overwrote that the Modron's marched through Undermountain, which they did in Modron March, and if you find something that says differently then please share.
However, all of that is irrelevant since WOTC has specificially stated, "If we haven't overwritten it, it is still canon." Thus DD is still canon, F&P makes DD canon, UE makes DD canon, the Player's Guide makes DD canon and DD makes the Planescape material canon and thus so does the 3/3.5e material since the Planescape material hasn't been overwritten. Again, if you have passages from current sourcebooks where this has been overwritten then please share.
Are you sure you want to keep arguing this because you are wrong. Furthermore, as I said above, this doesn't help Knight narrow down the events that are canon. Now either you help do that or get out of the thread. :)
Obviously the wand being destroyed is not a REALMS FACT since TSR overwrote it in DD, so if you have issue with that, well take that up with Eric since he referenced the Planescape lore saying that she hid the wand. :) Now maybe RAS has changed that since I haven't read his new novel since it's still in my to be read stack but if that is the case then I will admit that that event about the wand has changed. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 04 Jun 2006 00:56:34 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2006 : 00:47:24
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Well, if 1369 is a viable date, then that gives his cult a year to get organized before they start showing up in my Skullport campaign, which would be just about perfect. Thanks all.
Oh, anyone know if Orcus has any colors or alternate symbols besides the Wand? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2006 : 00:50:37
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Oh, anyone know if Orcus has any colors or alternate symbols besides the Wand?
I can't think of any but if you can wait a few weeks maybe the new Abyss core book might have some info on that. :)
Here's an idea: Maybe he took some of the symbols of the deities he killed. There's that mind flyer one and a few other deities.... Sage could probably give you a better list. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 04 Jun 2006 00:56:00 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2006 : 02:08:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Here's an idea: Maybe he took some of the symbols of the deities he killed. There's that mind flyer one and a few other deities.... Sage could probably give you a better list.
Orcus, as Tenebrous, slew Maanzecorian. Though I don't recall any information on symbols or other colours mentioned for the illithid deity.
Given the Maanzecorian's porfolio was knowledge though... perhaps that could've been reflected in its symbol.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 04 Jun 2006 02:09:13 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2006 : 04:46:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Obviously the wand being destroyed is not a REALMS FACT since TSR overwrote it in DD, so if you have issue with that, well take that up with Eric since he referenced the Planescape lore saying that she hid the wand. :) Now maybe RAS has changed that since I haven't read his new novel since it's still in my to be read stack but if that is the case then I will admit that that event about the wand has changed.
Bloody Hell Eric Boyd has MUCH to answer for!! 
Kuje where both right!!!
In DhD under Kiransalee it says "and hid the legendary Wand of Orcus where none could ever find it---- Or so she thought"
In Powers and Pantheons under Tiamat last paragraph "Just as the battered Tiamat readied to return to Unther in Triumph , she was attacked in her lair in the Outer Planes by a company powerful mortals at the bequest of her ancient Bahamut. In the battle, Tiamat's sole remaining avatar is destroyed. The mortals returned in triumph to Damara...."
This as you can probably guess is Gareth Dragonsbane and his party completing H4 Throne of Bloodstone. They kill Tiamat with the sole purpose of destroying the Wand of Orcus and they infact take a piece of the Wand of Orcus back to Damara and it becomes the seed for the Tree that keeps Demons out of that land...
Kuje I say we go and drop this Fat mess back in Erics lap! 
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2006 : 05:02:35
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Grin.
Well, I don't see the conflict since the Tiamat entry doesn't specifically say, at least the one you posted doesn't, that the wand was involved.... But hey, maybe go pester Eric about it. :) And DD came out after P&P and as I said above DD references the Planescape modules more then the 1e modules, at least in terms of Orcus's wand. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 04 Jun 2006 05:15:21 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2006 : 05:21:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Grin.
Well, I don't see the conflict since the Tiamat entry doesn't specifically say, at least the one you posted doesn't, that the wand was involved.... But hey, maybe go pester Eric about it. :) And DD came out after P&P and as I said above DD references the Planescape modules more then the 1e modules, at least in terms of Orcus's wand.
DOne
But if Gareth didnt destroy the Wand of Orcus then Castle Perilious and the Witch Kings army shouldnt have collpsed, in short H4 would never have been done. Its far tidier to assume that the Kiransalee entry is wrong and she just slayed the weakened Orcus (and by default leave Orcus dead or at least come up with a another story about how he resurrrected himself because the Planescape version wont work in the realms)
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2006 : 06:00:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Grin.
Well, I don't see the conflict since the Tiamat entry doesn't specifically say, at least the one you posted doesn't, that the wand was involved.... But hey, maybe go pester Eric about it. :) And DD came out after P&P and as I said above DD references the Planescape modules more then the 1e modules, at least in terms of Orcus's wand.
DOne
But if Gareth didnt destroy the Wand of Orcus then Castle Perilious and the Witch Kings army shouldnt have collpsed, in short H4 would never have been done. Its far tidier to assume that the Kiransalee entry is wrong and she just slayed the weakened Orcus (and by default leave Orcus dead or at least come up with a another story about how he resurrrected himself because the Planescape version wont work in the realms)
Actually, it's far tidier to use the Planescape material which backs up DD then use the 1e material that was never intended to be a part of FR in the first place. :) And as I said above, there is no reason to discount the Planescape material since WOTC has yet to overwrite it in FR and FR is riddled with ways that the Modrons could have arrived, especially in Undermountain since Hally has portals all over the place to the other cosmologies and to other lands.
As far as we know, Modrons could exist in the House of Knowledge and so could Primus. And the Outlands are referenced in Lisa's Psionic trilogy and so that doesn't stop them from marching across the Outlands. And as I said above, there are portals, the Shadow Plane, Sigil, and other planar pathways that Modrons can very well use to March and all of these are in canon 3/3.5e FR lore either in novels or sourcebooks.
And to confuse this issue a little more, and I'm usually the last one to use 3/3.5e core material in reference to FR lore, but since the BOVD has been referenced in FR sourcebooks and that book references Planescape material in regards to Orcus, I think it's useful for this discussion. Now, the BOVD, under the Cultist section, references the ritual and the NPC that returned Orcus to life and both were originally mentioned in Dead Gods and this is also the same NPC that is referenced in DD that Kiran allowed into her service even though he isn't named in DD.
Yes, I know that the BOVD isn't FR specific, however the BOVD has been, as I said, referenced in recent FR sourcebooks and some of the NPC's from it are referenced in 2e FR lore and the 3e lore builds on the 2e lore. It was also pointed out to me that 3e's Manual of the Planes, on page 103, also references the Planescape material about his return and since that book is also referenced in FR 3/3.5e sourcebooks, namely the Player's Guide for the cosmology section of that FR sourcebook, I'd go with the info from the MotP's as well. Hells, the Last Word, which is taken right out of Dead Gods, is referenced in the MotP's!
And looking over The Bloodstone Lands sourcebook by RAS, it does say that the wand was taken to the Seven Heavens and destroyed, true enough. However, Bahamut actually gave Gareth a gem that was planted to protect them from demons, not a part of Orcus's Wand. Page 6 of The Bloodstone Lands and so Eric probably referenced that for the Tiamat entry and so blame TSR for another error. :) And page 23, under Character Classes, only says Orcus was banished and it says he still had clerics but they are reduced in power, which is referenced in the NPC named Banak who was 24th level but is now listed in 20th in Bloodstone Lands.
However, that was why Orcus, as Primus, sent out the Modrons in the Great Modron March. To find out what happened to his wand, if I recall right. I can't check right now since my cat is sleeping on my crate were my Planescape books are stored. And then that module lead into Dead Gods and his full return. Course this sorta conflicts with DD but not really since it's explained in Planescape lore and then carried over to DD. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 04 Jun 2006 09:38:04 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 02:20:34
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According to the Ghostwalk Campaign Option, for however official you might consider this source, it mentions that Orcus' colors are black and red, with bone white accents. I'm running with it, especially since I have to run this scenario on tuesday night  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 03:02:21
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
According to the Ghostwalk Campaign Option, for however official you might consider this source, it mentions that Orcus' colors are black and red, with bone white accents. I'm running with it, especially since I have to run this scenario on tuesday night
Works for me. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 04:37:46
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| While I'm at it, I'm lifting Dread Rams, Artaagaliths, and that neat skull headed, praying skull hands mace too . . . ::signs off with evil laughter:: |
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Kes_Alanadel
Learned Scribe
USA
326 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 04:43:41
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
According to the Ghostwalk Campaign Option, for however official you might consider this source, it mentions that Orcus' colors are black and red, with bone white accents. I'm running with it, especially since I have to run this scenario on tuesday night
Granted I'm not as knowledgable on these things as others here, but when I first read this threadm, the color red was the main one that came to mind for me. Just seemed to make sense with Orcus being a Demon Prince. *shrugs* |
Ack! I seem to have too much blood in my coffee stream!
When did 'common sense' cease to be common? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 07:02:15
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
While I'm at it, I'm lifting Dread Rams, Artaagaliths, and that neat skull headed, praying skull hands mace too . . . ::signs off with evil laughter::
Good call!
Especially with the Artaagliths... They're demonic servants of Orcus as I recall. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 05 Jun 2006 07:04:52 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 07:04:04
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
According to the Ghostwalk Campaign Option, for however official you might consider this source, it mentions that Orcus' colors are black and red, with bone white accents. I'm running with it, especially since I have to run this scenario on tuesday night
I'd even throw in the skull-headed mace symbol that's illustrated for Orcus as well. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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NiTessine
Acolyte
Finland
34 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 12:54:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Here's an idea: Maybe he took some of the symbols of the deities he killed. There's that mind flyer one and a few other deities.... Sage could probably give you a better list.
Primus of the Modrons, who's now a vestige according to Dragon #341. Tomeri, a goddess of love and wisdom from some Prime world. Bwimb, Baron of the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze. Camaxtli, the Aztec god of fate. Maanzecorian, illithid god of magic. I think Primus and Maanzecorian (Monster Mythology) are the only ones we have any data on. Camaxtli isn't described with the rest of the Aztec pantheon in Legends & Lore.
The Wand of Orcus, by the way, was hidden in Pandemonium by a pair of Kiaransalee's servants. Orcus deduced its hiding place by the data the March supplied him, which led into Dead Gods.
The timeline presented in this thread matches pretty well what I have going on in my own campaign. Orcus killed in 1360, March started in 1362. I haven't yet figured out how long the march will take, which might be years. I seem to have lost my original calculations for how I arrived at this date, but the death of Zhengyi in 1359 seems to have been one of the anchor points in the timeline. I deduced he must've come back before 1360, due to some cross-setting chronology involving the events of Faction War and Die, Vecna, Die!, and timeline tracking between Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk by the article "Magic in the Evening" in Dragon #185 and Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. I know it's all a bit dodgy, canon-wise, but the material is there and the story of Orcus itself transcends setting limits, being equally and strongly rooted in Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk and Planescape.
Necromancer Games has compiled A Brief History of Orcus, referencing a number of 1E and 2E sources for the demon prince. It was a very valuable tool in figuring out a timeline. |
http://nitessine.wordpress.com/
Worlds in a Handful of Dice |
Edited by - NiTessine on 05 Jun 2006 12:59:17 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
969 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 18:13:55
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| Hey I was just about to post the Necromancer Game link. :-) (Also I believe Bwimb may have appeared in another Planescape product, but my memory may be faulty.) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 18:37:35
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quote:
Originally posted by NiTessine
The Wand of Orcus, by the way, was hidden in Pandemonium by a pair of Kiaransalee's servants. Orcus deduced its hiding place by the data the March supplied him, which led into Dead Gods.
The timeline presented in this thread matches pretty well what I have going on in my own campaign. Orcus killed in 1360, March started in 1362. I haven't yet figured out how long the march will take, which might be years. I seem to have lost my original calculations for how I arrived at this date, but the death of Zhengyi in 1359 seems to have been one of the anchor points in the timeline. I deduced he must've come back before 1360, due to some cross-setting chronology involving the events of Faction War and Die, Vecna, Die!, and timeline tracking between Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk by the article "Magic in the Evening" in Dragon #185 and Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. I know it's all a bit dodgy, canon-wise, but the material is there and the story of Orcus itself transcends setting limits, being equally and strongly rooted in Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk and Planescape.
I think that's Dargoth's major arguement. The 1e Bloodstone modules and the Bloodstone sourcebook says the wand was destroyed, not hidden. DD and Planescape material says it was hidden, not destroyed. :)
And I don't see any dates on the timeline that was posted but I still go with what I said in my detailed post about the DD dates because there are more dates in DD that are around 1368 to 1371 then there are 1362 dates. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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NiTessine
Acolyte
Finland
34 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 19:27:26
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Err... I mean, "come back before 1369", not "1360". Critical typo, sorry.
The logic behind that was that Dead Gods took place before Faction War, which was set in the 130th Year of Factol Hashkar's reign, which corresponded with year 1370 Dalereckoning. I got the timeline by anchoring the Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms timelines by "Magic in the Evening" (the Harpers novel Parched Sea and the GH module Vecna Lives! were the specific anchors) and then advancing to the point where Vecna returned on Greyhawk. Die, Vecna, Die! takes place shortly after Faction War.
Of course, there are still two major ambiguities in the timelines. Firstly, The Great Modron March has no specific timeline set, and can take years or even decades, in theory. Second, we do not know how long it took after Dead Gods for Orcus to reveal himself, which might easily take a couple of more years. Kiaransalee probably packed her bags and hoofed it pretty fast after word got out that his corpse disappeared from the Astral Plane, though. |
http://nitessine.wordpress.com/
Worlds in a Handful of Dice |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 22:18:25
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The thing that really gets up my nose though is that Realmlore has to be rewritten because of events in another setting (Ie Planescape)
As far as Im concerned if an FR product says one thing and a non FR product says something different the FR product overrules it regardless as to whether FR product is older than the non FR material or not.
The only thing that can overrule an FR product is another FR product.
The whole Wand of Orcus thing is one of the reasons I love the new FR cosmology : No more outside interference from other settings |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 22:34:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
The thing that really gets up my nose though is that Realmlore has to be rewritten because of events in another setting (Ie Planescape)
As far as Im concerned if an FR product says one thing and a non FR product says something different the FR product overrules it regardless as to whether FR product is older than the non FR material or not.
The only thing that can overrule an FR product is another FR product.
The whole Wand of Orcus thing is one of the reasons I love the new FR cosmology : No more outside interference from other settings
But an FR product does say what happened to the wand since DD says Kiren hid it, which is the same as Planescape lore.... This does conflict with FR's Bloodstone sourcebook though.
And in 2e that wasn't the case, since the settings were interconnected and since there's nothing that overwrites the Orcus events in 3e/3.5e FR lore, the old lore is still canon since that is what WOTC has said in how the old lore stands. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 05 Jun 2006 22:35:52 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 22:53:21
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| Except for the fact that Richard Baker said that the FR Cosmology has always been this way(ie as presented in the PGTF) and as such has NEVER been a part of the Great Wheel. |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Details on Orcus (Timeframe and Details)
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