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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 14:39:12
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
I've always considered the events in Dead Gods (Kiaransalee's abduction of the Wand of Orcus and the numerous deaths and rebirths of Orcus) and the events in the Bloodstone Lands (Gareth and company's destruction of the Wand of Orcus) to BOTH be true.
There are many ways to explain the apparent inconsistencies, from timeline manipulation (did the theft occur in the future or the distant path?), to deception (did the visages convince Gareth and company that something happened when it did not unfold in the way they perceived it?), to multiple wands (is one wand an "aspect" of the other?), to interaction (did the actions of Gareth and company weaken Orcus at one of the many points of the demon lord's interaction with Kiaransalee and thereby precipitate one of his defeats?).
*sly chuckle* And you would have to take the wise, if frustrating for me, route out of this wouldn't you. Good answer, and some fun potentially reconcialing bits at the end there.
Still doesn't make the cosmology retcon palatable, but of course I'm not buying Dragons of Faerun for any authoritative stance on planar orthodoxy, I'm buying it for fluff on said dragons (if I want planar orthodoxy I'll go for the Planescape sources and the Fiendish Codex et al). Should be a very good book regardless of our sniping here about Orcus, you've got a rather good track record and I doubt that I'll find the book wanting. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 14:54:27
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What the mortals of the Realms can understand of the way of gods, or archdevils? Ed have said this some times, that the mortals of Faerűn see only what they "understand" of the gods (and I´m putting the great devil/demons here together). Now, what these beings really are, what they´re really doing, is anoter matter.
I like too much of Eric explanation. Really it lets all the doors that I, as a DM, want to see open. :} |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 15:25:39
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
Oh, and there has been a reference to Limbo in FR lore. In Chapter Three of the HoTU campaign the Githzerai in the city clearly tell you that they are from Limbo. Now I am not sure if this is legitamate or not, but it is something.
Serpent Kingdoms references Limbo, and has been mentioned in a novel or two. Ed confirms this as well in his '05 replies.
quote:
and if some people have any doubts, Sigil does exist in FR cosmology, Rich Baker stated it right here in this thread:http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=129535
The Sigil of the Great Wheel in 3e is the same Sigil in the FR's Great Tree cosmology. So it still exists for FR as well. The Abbey of the Sword reference in F&P on pg. 161 P3-Magic Portal -- notes a one-way portal from Sigil to Toril.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 15:31:04
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And now a mod warning on the "current" tone of this scroll...
There's some 2e vs 3e planar changes chat going on. Let's try to keep that to a minimum. It's a touchy subject, and every scribe here has their own views on the overall changes that occured between 2e and 3e.
My planar changes write-up in the Candlekeep Code of Conduct handles planar changes as they are now in 3e (it's in the process of being revised to include more recent references), so let's just move back to discussing Orcus and save our thoughts about planar changes for PMs and/or emails.
Consider this a first and last warning -- try to avoid planar changes discussion unless it directly relates to the topic of this scroll.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 15:35:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
What the mortals of the Realms can understand of the way of gods, or archdevils? Ed have said this some times, that the mortals of Faerűn see only what they "understand" of the gods (and I´m putting the great devil/demons here together). Now, what these beings really are, what they´re really doing, is anoter matter.
I like too much of Eric explanation. Really it lets all the doors that I, as a DM, want to see open. :}
A source book is written for real people not "Faerunians" and it should have accurate and correct info. |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 15:40:21
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I think that Gareth only defeated Orcus because archfiends are weakened when they come on to the mortal plane. Thus Gareth was able to destroy Orcus and send him howling back into Thanatos. When he returned back to Thanatos, Kiaransalee caught a weakened, pissed, and wandless Orcus completly off guard and killed him, supposedly permenatly because it was on his home plane.
Then we go through the entire Dead Gods thing where Orcus/Tenebrous finds the last word and kills Primus, that illithid god, and all the others. Only to find that the last word consumes him before he can revive himself.
Then he is revived by Quah-Nomag and (somehow) given his wand back. Where he retakes Thanatos, kicks Kiaransalee out, and regains his full power.
I don't really see how the two events can contradict each other really. The only real inconsisancy was in in Bloodstone, Orcus's wand was destoyed by Gareth but in Dead Gods Orcus still had his wand, which Kiaransalee hid in Pandemonium. So I can only assume that when Orcus was revived, so was his wand. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 15:50:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
A source book is written for real people not "Faerunians" and it should have accurate and correct info.
I agree.
H4 is correct. Dead Gods is correct. DD is correct. DoF is correct. IMO, there is not a contradiction.
In other words, Gareth did destroy the Wand. Kiaransalee's agents did seize and hide the Wand. There are several possible explanations for how this is possible (including, but not limited to, the fact that the gods do not necessarily act temporally) and (at least for now) the correct explanation is ambiguous. (At this time, I have no intention of picking an explanation, even assuming there is just one, but plans do change, so I won't promise.) Sometimes, leaving things ambiguous is important to give DMs the most flexibility and to preserve future design space.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 15:53:51
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It takes 100 years (Thats campaign setting years not abyssal years or what ever fussy chronology people want to trie and use) for Orcus to reassemble his Wand this has been canon in D&D for decades
We now have a date for Gareth Dragonsbane destruction of the Wand of Orcus its official in 1359 the wand was destroyed
Now the only real question is when did Planescape plot occur?
Which there are 2 potential options
A) The Planescape plot occured before 1359 in which case Orcus has returned from the dead and reclaimed his home in the Abyss and was then crippled and will remain so until at least 1359
B) THe Planescape plot hasnt occured yet and CANT occur until 1459 which means the for all intense of purposes the planescape plot is irrelevant to the current realms
H1-4 clearly states that the Heroes (ie Gareth Dragonsbane) have the real Wand of Orcus its not a fake or some Aspects Wand its the real deal and this is in the info for the DM its not seen through "realms coloured glasses". |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 03 Aug 2006 15:59:10 |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 16:00:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
It takes 100 years (Thats campaign setting years not abyssal years or what ever fussy chronology people want to trie and use for Orcus to reassemble his Wand this has been canon for in D&D for decades
We now have a date for Gareth Dragonsbane destruction of the Wand of Orcus its official in 1359 the wand was destroyed
Now the only real question is when did dead gods occur?
Which there are 2 potential options
A) The Planescape plot occured before 1359 in which case Orcus has returned from the dead and reclaimed his home in the Abyss and was then crippled and will remain so until at least 1359
B) THe Planescape plot hasnt occured yet and CANT occur until 1459 which means the for all intense of purposes the planescape plot is irrelevant to the current realms
H1-4 clearly states that the Heroes (ie Gareth Dragonsbane) have the real Wand of Orcus its not a fake or some Aspects Wand its the real deal and this is in the info for the DM its not seen through "realms coloured glasses".
If the heroes have the wand and Orcus is alive again, I don't think they will have the wand for much longer. Orcus's wand is sentinent in a way and nobody posseses it unless Orcus wills it. More like Orcus will lead the heroes to their doom and then reclaim his wand.
So I think the heroes had the wand, Orcus was revived. The heroes mysteriously die and Orcus comes back and reclaims his wand.
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"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Edited by - FridayThe13th on 03 Aug 2006 16:01:34 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 16:04:03
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
It takes 100 years (Thats campaign setting years not abyssal years or what ever fussy chronology people want to trie and use for Orcus to reassemble his Wand this has been canon for in D&D for decades
We now have a date for Gareth Dragonsbane destruction of the Wand of Orcus its official in 1359 the wand was destroyed
Now the only real question is when did dead gods occur?
Which there are 2 potential options
A) The Planescape plot occured before 1359 in which case Orcus has returned from the dead and reclaimed his home in the Abyss and was then crippled and will remain so until at least 1359
B) THe Planescape plot hasnt occured yet and CANT occur until 1459 which means the for all intense of purposes the planescape plot is irrelevant to the current realms
H1-4 clearly states that the Heroes (ie Gareth Dragonsbane) have the real Wand of Orcus its not a fake or some Aspects Wand its the real deal and this is in the info for the DM its not seen through "realms coloured glasses".
If the heroes have the wand and Orcus is alive again, I don't think they will have the wand for much longer. Orcus's wand is sentinent in a way and nobody posseses it unless Orcus wills it. More like Orcus will lead the heroes to their doom and then reclaim his wand.
The Heroes dont have the Wand they destroyed it by plunging into the heart of Timats avatar (This is the climax encounter of H4 Throne of Bloodstone one of the earliest FR modules)
Bahamut then gives Gareth a piece of the wand of orcus which he plants in Damara and it grows into a tree grows which prevents demons from entering Damara so long as the rulers of that nation are "Good and just" |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 03 Aug 2006 16:06:02 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 16:14:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
It takes 100 years (Thats campaign setting years not abyssal years or what ever fussy chronology people want to trie and use) for Orcus to reassemble his Wand this has been canon in D&D for decades
Been canon for 'decades'? This is the first time that I've heard that number being tossed out in relation to his wand and its destruction. If this is something H4 says, I've tried to wash that module from my brain so I'm not too up on specific wording therein, and if this is related to the fuzzy 1e bit about demon lord 'amulets' and such, that hasn't been referenced since 1e as far as I'm aware. Gimme some references if you don't mind. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 16:18:07
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| So why can't we assume that Orcus found a quicker way to rebuild his wand? He is a god, now, after all... |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 00:52:26
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I really think Eric has made the wisest answer here, already.
Deities and planar events are so far beyond the ken of most mortals that there's not a single, definitive answer - even from an OOC point of view.
I personally subscribe to the idea that Orcus, as a god (as stated in Faiths and Pantheons, so this is canon to FR), probably had his Avatar's Wand destroyed by Gareth, which would have still weakened him overall, but not completely destroyed his primary Wand.
Thanks for helping to reconciliate (oddly enough, by making things more vague) the matter, Eric. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 16:49:46
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Yes, just because you destroy an avatar and its items dosen't mean the being itself is fully destroyed.
As for Gareth destroying the "real" wand, I think that it s just in their puny mortal perspectives that they destroyed the real deal. But even an aspect's wand is a powerful artifact of evil and its demise should weaken and distract Orcus enough so that Kiaransalee could kill him.
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"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 16:57:26
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
Yes, just because you destroy an avatar and its items dosen't mean the being itself is fully destroyed.
As for Gareth destroying the "real" wand, I think that it s just in their puny mortal perspectives that they destroyed the real deal. But even an aspect's wand is a powerful artifact of evil and its demise should weaken and distract Orcus enough so that Kiaransalee could kill him.
Yes. This made me remember of the Crown of Horns - an evil artifact destructed, that rebuild himself and flee the barriers of the Blackstaff by the will of Myrkul. Orcus is a deity, too, after all.  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 17:22:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Yes. This made me remember of the Crown of Horns - an evil artifact destructed, that rebuild himself and flee the barriers of the Blackstaff by the will of Myrkul. Orcus is a deity, too, after all.
Hmm, a sentinent Wand of Orcus that rebuilds itself and "coincidentally" goes back to its master when he is revived by Quah-Nomag. Its a very cool idea.
The Wand is topped with a skull after all (although it is the skull of the paladin who killed Cantrum of the Dark Eight, I don't think he has much love for Orcus) |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 17:25:51
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
Hmm, a sentinent Wand of Orcus that rebuilds itself and "coincidentally" goes back to its master when he is revived by Quah-Nomag. Its a very cool idea.
The Wand is topped with a skull after all (although it is the skull of the paladin who killed Cantrum of the Dark Eight, I don't think he has much love for Orcus)
Well, we have that spell in the Book of Exalted Deeds that redeems the target, changing his alignment and turning him a better person. Maybe Orcus just developed a corrupted reversed spell... 
Demons act as demons, sometimes...  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 17:52:13
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
The Wand is topped with a skull after all (although it is the skull of the paladin who killed Cantrum of the Dark Eight, I don't think he has much love for Orcus)
Don't quote me on it, but as I recall Cantrum was actually killed by one of his own overly ambitious underlings who might have used the paladin's weapon, but the kill was attributed to the mortal (who died with rather unspectacular swiftness once entering Baator) and a mythology has since grown up around it.
I believe that was the statement in Hellbound, either under the entry for the weapon that killed Cantrum, or under the entry on Cantrum.
Of course the legends on Orcus's wand might different from the mythology on the death of Cantrum, and conflicting mythologies (especially when it comes to those held by two of the three major parties in the Blood War) can be fun. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 21:25:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
The Wand is topped with a skull after all (although it is the skull of the paladin who killed Cantrum of the Dark Eight, I don't think he has much love for Orcus)
Don't quote me on it, but as I recall Cantrum was actually killed by one of his own overly ambitious underlings who might have used the paladin's weapon, but the kill was attributed to the mortal (who died with rather unspectacular swiftness once entering Baator) and a mythology has since grown up around it.
I believe that was the statement in Hellbound, either under the entry for the weapon that killed Cantrum, or under the entry on Cantrum.
Of course the legends on Orcus's wand might different from the mythology on the death of Cantrum, and conflicting mythologies (especially when it comes to those held by two of the three major parties in the Blood War) can be fun.
So you are the Shemeska the Marauder I have heard so much about? Well, pleased to meet you. Though your avatar does look consiterably different here.
Yeah, I have heard something like that before. It actually seems more likely that an underling did it with a Paladin's weapon because I don't know how long a Paladin can survive in Baator, Nessus especially( ). I wonder, does the module "A Paladin in Hell" provide any information?
By the way, love your storyhours |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2006 : 01:53:20
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| Just out of curiosity, what exactly sparked all this sudden discussion on Orcus? At least, it seems a bit sudden to me. *shrug* |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 05 Aug 2006 01:53:50 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2006 : 02:44:25
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The line in Dragon's of Faerun which says that Gareth Dragonsbane destroyed Orcus's wand, which was a reference to an ages-old 1E source, the Bloodstone Lands (which I believe wasn't even a part of Ed's original Realms anyway), and which was 'contradicted' (depending on how you view planar events) by over a dozen sources from 2E and 3E, from Planescape and FR - which said that his wand wasn't destroyed, but rather hidden.
Eric's answer should have satisfied us all, though: deific events are weird. They could have ALL happened.... |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2006 : 03:19:19
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
The line in Dragon's of Faerun which says that Gareth Dragonsbane destroyed Orcus's wand, which was a reference to an ages-old 1E source, the Bloodstone Lands (which I believe wasn't even a part of Ed's original Realms anyway), and which was 'contradicted' (depending on how you view planar events) by over a dozen sources from 2E and 3E, from Planescape and FR - which said that his wand wasn't destroyed, but rather hidden.
Ah, thanks. And yes, the Bloodstone Lands weren't originally a part of the FR.
quote:
Eric's answer should have satisfied us all, though: deific events are weird. They could have ALL happened....
True, that! |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2006 : 22:28:22
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quote:
Ah, thanks. And yes, the Bloodstone Lands weren't originally a part of the FR.
Which is why I'm not particularly upset about the whole thing being 'contradicted' by Planescape (more like, providing an alternate planar view of events). |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2006 : 06:54:54
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
The line in Dragon's of Faerun which says that Gareth Dragonsbane destroyed Orcus's wand, which was a reference to an ages-old 1E source, the Bloodstone Lands (which I believe wasn't even a part of Ed's original Realms anyway), and which was 'contradicted' (depending on how you view planar events) by over a dozen sources from 2E and 3E, from Planescape and FR - which said that his wand wasn't destroyed, but rather hidden.
Eric's answer should have satisfied us all, though: deific events are weird. They could have ALL happened....
I think it's best to look at it from the perspective that mortals of the Realms (and planescape for that matter) do not have the entire picture, due to their inability to comprehend divinity and parallel/alternate timelines. A deity can (or at least might be able to) keep track of many different time lines. Gods create contingency plans and often have multiple copies or incarnations of artifacts. It's possible for the wand to be both destroyed and hidden. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2006 : 07:31:17
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quote:
I think it's best to look at it from the perspective that mortals of the Realms (and planescape for that matter) do not have the entire picture, due to their inability to comprehend divinity and parallel/alternate timelines. A deity can (or at least might be able to) keep track of many different time lines. Gods create contingency plans and often have multiple copies or incarnations of artifacts. It's possible for the wand to be both destroyed and hidden.
Yeah, that's what I was saying. :) I was agreeing with Eric.
EDIT: Actually, I'll ammend this a bit. Some mortals are fully capable of comprehending the nature of divinity and somewhat of alternate timelines.. Chronomancers, certain Factions, Archmages (Raistlin, Karsus, Vecna, etc.) And considering we, as players, understand the idea... I don't know why it would be hard for an educated Realmsian populace not to understand it to a point.
I was agreeing with Eric as to the fact that all possibilities are possible... Not necessarily that we can't fully understand that idea. (Since we can, and it was pretty explicit when the idea of Multispheric deities was around.) And Ed's original FR was connected to alternate material planes itself... |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 06 Aug 2006 07:58:13 |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2006 : 09:48:44
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
I think it's best to look at it from the perspective that mortals of the Realms (and planescape for that matter) do not have the entire picture, due to their inability to comprehend divinity and parallel/alternate timelines. A deity can (or at least might be able to) keep track of many different time lines. Gods create contingency plans and often have multiple copies or incarnations of artifacts. It's possible for the wand to be both destroyed and hidden.
Yeah, that's what I was saying. :) I was agreeing with Eric.
EDIT: Actually, I'll ammend this a bit. Some mortals are fully capable of comprehending the nature of divinity and somewhat of alternate timelines.. Chronomancers, certain Factions, Archmages (Raistlin, Karsus, Vecna, etc.) And considering we, as players, understand the idea... I don't know why it would be hard for an educated Realmsian populace not to understand it to a point.
I was agreeing with Eric as to the fact that all possibilities are possible... Not necessarily that we can't fully understand that idea. (Since we can, and it was pretty explicit when the idea of Multispheric deities was around.) And Ed's original FR was connected to alternate material planes itself...
I'm not saying that mortals couldn't understand that such things exist. Rather, I believe that the deities are capable of perceiving, judging, and manipulating multiple realities at the same time. It may be possible for certain very powerful mortals to achieve this (or at least it may have been possible in the past), but this sort of magic often attracts the attention of the gods to the detriment of the mortal in question. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2006 : 18:07:45
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Originally posted by EytanBernstein
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Originally posted by GothicDan
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I think it's best to look at it from the perspective that mortals of the Realms (and planescape for that matter) do not have the entire picture, due to their inability to comprehend divinity and parallel/alternate timelines. A deity can (or at least might be able to) keep track of many different time lines. Gods create contingency plans and often have multiple copies or incarnations of artifacts. It's possible for the wand to be both destroyed and hidden.
Yeah, that's what I was saying. :) I was agreeing with Eric.
EDIT: Actually, I'll ammend this a bit. Some mortals are fully capable of comprehending the nature of divinity and somewhat of alternate timelines.. Chronomancers, certain Factions, Archmages (Raistlin, Karsus, Vecna, etc.) And considering we, as players, understand the idea... I don't know why it would be hard for an educated Realmsian populace not to understand it to a point.
I was agreeing with Eric as to the fact that all possibilities are possible... Not necessarily that we can't fully understand that idea. (Since we can, and it was pretty explicit when the idea of Multispheric deities was around.) And Ed's original FR was connected to alternate material planes itself...
I'm not saying that mortals couldn't understand that such things exist. Rather, I believe that the deities are capable of perceiving, judging, and manipulating multiple realities at the same time. It may be possible for certain very powerful mortals to achieve this (or at least it may have been possible in the past), but this sort of magic often attracts the attention of the gods to the detriment of the mortal in question.
I fully agree with everyone in the camp who says that mortals cannot percieve all of the plots and webs of consparicies of the gods. The gods are multilayered beings in a sense. Many multi-spherical deities such as Lolth and Orcus have different aspects in different worlds. The defeat of the deity in one crystal sphere dosen't mean the demise of the deity in total. Ok, lets just say that Gareth Dragonsbane did permenatly destroy Orcus and his dreaded wand in the Forgotten Realms setting and Orcus was gone for good on Aber-Toril. In reality, Gareth would just be destroying Orcus's worship on his own planet. Orcus and his cults in other spheres such as Oerth would be unaffected by his demise on Toril. His true-self in Thanatos though, although not destroyed, would be greatly weakened and distracted by this and this would allow Kiaransalee to sneak in and kill him while he was distracted.
When Kiaransalee killed him however, it was his true self dying on his home plane, and when a deity is destroyed on his home plane he is supposedly gone permenently and all of his cults across the multiverse would suddenly find themselves powerless. (though Orcus found a way to revive himself)
As you can see, only ONE aspect of Orcus was destroyed at Bloodstone, which is irrelevent compared the total demise of the true entity on his home plane in Dead Gods. The two events do not contradict each other and there should be no conflict. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 00:26:01
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Originally posted by GothicDan
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Ah, thanks. And yes, the Bloodstone Lands weren't originally a part of the FR.
Which is why I'm not particularly upset about the whole thing being 'contradicted' by Planescape (more like, providing an alternate planar view of events).
The Great wheel (The cosmology Planescape is built on) wasnt an original part of the FR either so I can use your arguement to say that Planescape should have no bearing on the Realms |
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Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 00:31:16
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The Great wheel (The cosmology Planescape is built on) wasnt an original part of the FR either so I can use your arguement to say that Planescape should have no bearing on the Realms
But it is similar in application to Ed's original ideas about the cosmology, and it was fully accepted by Ed (who, again, created some of it) and other designers from both 1E and 2E, who worked it seamlessly into the setting on many levels.
Can the same be said of the information about Orcus in the Bloodstone Lands?
And, again, Planescape allowed for multiple possible realities to occur, which is what both Ed and Eric wanted.
And I also am rather intrigued by the fact that you aren't upset by the presence of Orcus, Lolth, Corellon Larethian, the Drow, Moradin, and the like, which were not a part of FR until it was connected with the Great Wheel (and thus Planescape). |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 07 Aug 2006 00:36:35 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2006 : 00:48:22
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Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
Ah, thanks. And yes, the Bloodstone Lands weren't originally a part of the FR.
Which is why I'm not particularly upset about the whole thing being 'contradicted' by Planescape (more like, providing an alternate planar view of events).
The Great wheel (The cosmology Planescape is built on) wasnt an original part of the FR either so I can use your arguement to say that Planescape should have no bearing on the Realms
Ah,
but it was part of the original published realms since it existed in 1e and it was/is referenced in the Old Grey Box. Now, true it might not have been a part of Ed's Realms, but a lot of Ed's Realms is different. |
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Details on Orcus (Timeframe and Details)
Topic Locked
