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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 17:47:35
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I agree with Msatran.
I heard the Greeks were pretty good at this "debate" thing. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 18:52:53
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Your assertion that Araevin actually chose Magic over Love and saved Myth Drannor is a crock. Araevin did not actually choose magic over love, because he never really HAD her love at any point during the story.
He's lost Ilsevele from page one of the first book, and we all know it. In other words, he loses nothing. The price he had to pay for this power was meaningless. Becoming celestial? I don't buy that as a situation for sacrifice at all. Giving up experience points so that he advances more slowly is NOT a sacrifice.
In order to have a sacrifice be meaningful, there must be LOSS, not just change. There is no loss, because he never really had Ilsevele to begin with, and Mr. Baker pretty much telegraphed his punches with that.
The only thing he really sacrificed was the Waypoint, and the Waypoint was neither necessary nor useful. It seemed almost like Sarya's appearance there at the end was doubly contrived when she could have gone anywhere in the Realms to regroup.
He didn't sacrifice any relationships because the relationships weren't strong enough that their loss was meaningful.
Plus, Fflar should STILL be dead. Even if he was 125 when Myth Drannor fell, he's still obligated to actually age all the years in between, which would make him about 650, or well into the Venerable age category. Even True Ressurrection doesn't allow you to simply skip the intervening years of life.
So what spell did Seiveril Meiritar use to return him to life? (He can use two. 5000 XP for a miracle to make him return at the age he was when he died, and then True Ressurrection thereafter to make sure he doesn't lose any levels.) But given all the other things he did, I'm not sure he had 5,000 XP to spend...
I agree with you about Araevin but I'm not sure about the "aging in heaven" thing
Fflar died at 125 years of age, thus his mortal life ended. Then his soul goes to Arvanador and 650 years pass in the Realms while he stays in the timeless elvish heaven until Seiveril Meiritar summons him back into the mortal realm, the spell reconstructing his body as it was at the time of his death, 125 years of age.
Aging in the "after-life" does not make sense as if you died of old age what happens if you are then resurrected?
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 00:55:02
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I agree with you about Araevin but I'm not sure about the "aging in heaven" thing
Fflar died at 125 years of age, thus his mortal life ended. Then his soul goes to Arvanador and 650 years pass in the Realms while he stays in the timeless elvish heaven until Seiveril Meiritar summons him back into the mortal realm, the spell reconstructing his body as it was at the time of his death, 125 years of age.
Aging in the "after-life" does not make sense as if you died of old age what happens if you are then resurrected?
It also mentions that FFlar is much younger than Seiveril and that the elder elf looks up to him as a bit of a hero somewhere in the series, I think it's at the beginning of Farthest Reach. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 01:00:58
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Actually, it CAN be a desirable goal. There used to be this thing called debate. And people would debate things instead of yelling at each other. We can do THAT instead, you know. :)
Better an informed opinion than an uninformed one.
Well yeah, but when you experience art, my opinion is that it will either click with someone or it won't. It isn't an entirely logical process that can be debated, as I see it. If someone greatly enjoyed a book, the experience they had isn't going to change just because someone is arguing about how bad the book was. It may help them see the flaws in the book, but it won't make them like the book less. Same goes in reverse--if a book doesn't "click" with someone, arguing until you are blue in the face about it isn't going to change the fact that the book just did not work for them.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 01:03:45
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| Beautiful point RF, and well stated. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 01:04:40
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Beautiful point RF, and well stated.
Thank you.  |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 02:53:20
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| I think that writing is often equal parts art and science - but I'm a bit biased, as I study physics, so. ;) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 04:33:15
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I think that writing is often equal parts art and science - but I'm a bit biased, as I study physics, so. ;)
Yes, but that wasn't my point--my point was that people will react to art (in this case, prose) in different ways, and if they've had a great experience or a bad one, nothing anyone says is going to "rewind" the experience they had and change it.
And thus, my point is: I don't come here to try to get people to think the same way about these books as I do, but rather to give my opinion and explain why I formed it. If I influence the way people think, that's fine, but it's not something I've deliberately set out to do here. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 07:57:18
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Well, Rin, this goes back to my original point. This is not art. This is pulp. It follows all of Lester Dent's rules down to the last page. And really, it never pretends to be anything else. Mr. Baker didn't think he was writing the next Ulysses or the next Sound and the Fury when he was writing this. He was just trying to spin a good yarn. Some of us think he failed. Some of us think he succeeded.
And to whoever said you don't age the years when you're ressurrected, it's written in the spell description. Otherwise, according to the rules of the spell and the FAQ, especially since Ed is still running second edition, if the spell returns you to life and you're 75 years older, wham, you're 75 years older. If you would be a big heap of dust because you were a slave to the Sarrukh, then poof, you're ressurrected, you reconstitute for a nanosecond, and then whuft, you're a heap of dust, game over. :)
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 08:01:52
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| Ah, I get what you mean now, Rino. Thanks for clearing it up. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 14:03:15
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
And to whoever said you don't age the years when you're ressurrected, it's written in the spell description. Otherwise, according to the rules of the spell and the FAQ, especially since Ed is still running second edition, if the spell returns you to life and you're 75 years older, wham, you're 75 years older. If you would be a big heap of dust because you were a slave to the Sarrukh, then poof, you're ressurrected, you reconstitute for a nanosecond, and then whuft, you're a heap of dust, game over. :)
I'll have to look that up, but if it is true, then there is another house rule added to change a ruling I think is ridiculous. |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 16:51:34
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Sorry about this, this is a little off topic, but...
Kalin, the ruling may be ridiculous to you, but I like it. Otherwise, there's nothing to prevent your 17th level cleric from just going...I need a legendary army of the crown wars to help me fight these guys. Let me get a diamond mine. I'm 17th level. Elves live a long time. Oh...look...here's my legendary army of 15th+ level people, and they're all good and worship Corellon Larethian.
Granted, you gain almost no XP, because now you've divided those costs by an additional 5000, but your enemy, whoever it is, is toast. This is broken. You can't just run around ressurecting entire armies of people. Most high level characters DO have a ton of money, and CAN return to life dozens of individuals with very little effort. That's why the restrictions there.
But this does actually bring me to another problem with the novel. The ressurrection is handled offstage. It's important to realize a huge fact. Casting this spell takes ten minutes and costs 25,000 gp, especially since we know Seiveril didn't have a body to return to life. And NO ONE tried to stop him? Now granted, you may be the high priest of Corellon Larethian. But if >I< were the high priest of Corellon Larethian, and >I< secretly ressurrected one of the greatest heroes of the Elven People, I think I might face some angry opposition not just from a political council, but also from my fellow priests. If I were an elf, this would outrage me more than sending my son to sit beside Fflar in Arvandor.
Seiveril at least, sacrificed his social position. But Fflar didn't have to give up anything either. I understand that people love redemption stories, but I really feel that this life was redeemed with food stamps.
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 17:28:59
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
I understand that people love redemption stories, but I really feel that this life was redeemed with food stamps.
Come to think of it, there's probably a whole plethora of things in this trilogy that I'd compare to cheap supermarket deals. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 17:43:22
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
And to whoever said you don't age the years when you're ressurrected, it's written in the spell description. Otherwise, according to the rules of the spell and the FAQ, especially since Ed is still running second edition, if the spell returns you to life and you're 75 years older, wham, you're 75 years older. If you would be a big heap of dust because you were a slave to the Sarrukh, then poof, you're ressurrected, you reconstitute for a nanosecond, and then whuft, you're a heap of dust, game over. :)
Where is it written, specifically? I just checked the SRD, the 3.5 FAQ, and the old 2E PHB. I did not find, in any of those sources, any references to the dead creature's age catching up with them. |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 17:48:05
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Remember, Sev gets himself killed, so perhaps he's paid for his resurrection.
I always thought the reason clerics can't resurrect legions of armies and such is because those people choose to remain in the afterlife, or the resurrection is denied by a deity's or powerful planar influence. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 14 Jul 2006 17:49:04 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 18:57:42
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Kalin, the ruling may be ridiculous to you, but I like it. Otherwise, there's nothing to prevent your 17th level cleric from just going...I need a legendary army of the crown wars to help me fight these guys. Let me get a diamond mine. I'm 17th level. Elves live a long time. Oh...look...here's my legendary army of 15th+ level people, and they're all good and worship Corellon Larethian.
I agree with you, there is the risk by using raise dead or resurrection that you can milk the spell and bring back great heroes
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Granted, you gain almost no XP, because now you've divided those costs by an additional 5000, but your enemy, whoever it is, is toast. This is broken. You can't just run around ressurecting entire armies of people. Most high level characters DO have a ton of money, and CAN return to life dozens of individuals with very little effort. That's why the restrictions there.
Yes and no. YES the spell doesn’t allow you to just can’t go around resurrecting entire armies of people but NO, there have been restrictions put in place about that scenario for a while now. IF the restriction of age is there it is to keep the spell from being broke but IF it is there then it is a very poor choice of restriction.
The wish spell is a very similar spell for your scenario above, just wish an army back from the dead. Who cares if you age 10 years or lose a level or lose XP or whatever, you still get an army. The wish’s restrictions are the same restrictions on resurrection. It will work in the way it is intended only if the Gods allow it.
Ignoring the whole “realistically, how may high level priests are there out there that can cast hundreds of raise dead/resurrection spells?” and “realistically, how may priests will sacrifice a huge chunk of their life force to resurrect an army?” and “realistically, how many churches have millions of gp to spend to resurrect armies of heroes?” it all comes down to will the gods allow this to happen.
These heroes have earned their rest and don’t deserve to be thrust back into the mortal coil, the heroes may probably be either major Petitioners-Servitors of the god or even a proxy. The god may not want to answer so many of those high level (thus high power) prayers. And if the world has a God of Death that god may not allow so many souls to return. Jergal was very jealous of raising any soul, Myrkul enslaved the dead when he could, Cyric was a jerk and I bet Kelemvor wouldn’t appreciate the flaunting of the life-death cycle either.
There has always been a control for raising the dead. I don’t have any of my books with me but I remember there is a maximum age limit per caster level, that’s another control. As I said before, if there is a lifespan control measure it is ridiculous and poorly thought out control measure and kind of insulting to a DM’s discretion of allowing a raise dead to succeed (DM discretion, another control). A raise dead/resurrect spell with a lifespan restriction, in my opinion, is just a powered down version of the spell, from 9th to 6-7th maybe.
quote:
Originally posted by msatran But this does actually bring me to another problem with the novel. The ressurrection is handled offstage. It's important to realize a huge fact. Casting this spell takes ten minutes and costs 25,000 gp, especially since we know Seiveril didn't have a body to return to life. And NO ONE tried to stop him? Now granted, you may be the high priest of Corellon Larethian. But if >I< were the high priest of Corellon Larethian, and >I< secretly ressurrected one of the greatest heroes of the Elven People, I think I might face some angry opposition not just from a political council, but also from my fellow priests. If I were an elf, this would outrage me more than sending my son to sit beside Fflar in Arvandor.
Wow, that part brings up alot of questions for me. Do you think Corellon woun’t have stopped Seiveril if he didn’t want Fflar resurrected? Do you think Corellon couldn’t have stopped the prayer? Do you not think Corellon and the Elven Gods have a plan to Return their elf children and part of it is retaking anc cleansing Myth Drannor (like the Elven Court was earlier?). Do you think that this may have been Fflar’s destiny? Do you think Seiveril could have succeeded without Fflar?
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Seiveril at least, sacrificed his social position. But Fflar didn't have to give up anything either. I understand that people love redemption stories, but I really feel that this life was redeemed with food stamps.
Even a few more questions. What did Fflar need to redeem himself for? He fell in honor against a Nycaloth Lord protecting the last of the Myth Drannor refugees. Was Seiveril's sacrifice a real sacrifice? I doubt Seiveril really felt like he sacrificed anything, he led the Crusade that brought the Elves back into the world, instigated the fall of one of the most twisted elven dynasties ever and liberated their greatest city. I’m sure in Arvandor he is with his wife-love in a hollowed postion as a great elven hero.
The only thing I was surprised with was that Fflar was allowed to stay on in the world. I kept expecting when his work was done he would return to his rest. And in book 1 I got the impression his ressurection was faulty and soemthing wicked was within him.
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 21:12:45
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Sure, I think Seiveril could have succeeded without Fflar. But he would have paid the price of losing Ilsevele. Realistically, this may not have been a better act, but it sure would have made a better story.
Ask Elaine Cunningham, she's a teacher. Which is considered a better story? One with a happy ending? Or one with a bittersweet one? Bittersweet endings are always better, because they leave the reader with questions, much like the questions that you are asking now.
Nothing beats the end of Hamlet, where the characters realize that "I fear that the election does fall on Fortinbras."
The Realms has the POTENTIAL to rise above the dime novel and become real LITERATURE. And when I see a novel series that has that potential, like this one did, and watch it wasted, I become disappointed.
And technically, True Ressurrection is as ressurrection. So he's got a limit of 10 years per level. That would make Seiveril a...uh...60+ Level Cleric. Now, if he's really a 60+ level cleric, he can retake Myth Drannor by himself. :) And the answer is, no, Corellon would NOT stop Fflar because Ao pretty much laid down the smackdown when he said "If you do not do things for your worshippers, then you are interfering too much in the ways of mortals." Elves may be exceptionally long lived mortals, but they're still mortals.
I don't believe in destiny, and the Realms doesn't either. Prophecies are left intentionally vague so that there are many means of fulfilling them. Some gods do, but great destinies in the Realms are rare.
if I were Fflar, I would need to redeem myself for allowing things to sink to the point where there was racism and dissent and murder in Myth Drannor before the fall. There is no question that Seiveril is a great hero, but I find myself asking "Does the end justify the means?"
And of course, then there's the Sarya problem, where I worked for four years to get my players to a point where they could fight Sarya, and now she dies in a pulp novel. You have no idea how much that stinks. I had one of my players tell me "Richard Baker is DEAD to me. Forgotten Realms Novels are Dead to me." And if you even so much as dare to tell me that these novels are more important than my gaming group, I'm pretty sure that both Richard and I will smack you, becuase that's not how the game is played. It's just that the burden of this now falls on me, virtually EVERY explanation I come up with is cheese on a stick, except Fey'ri Lich, and quite frankly, if I throw them up against a CR 24 Fey'ri Lich and Malkazid at the same time, I don't just THINK they'll die. I KNOW they'll die. :)
I've said this a thousand times and I'll say it again. If you create a villain in a bunch of sourcebooks, leave it for the PC's to deal with. There were a million new characters that Richard Baker could have created that would have made more interesting stories than Sarya and her Fey'ri horde.
You and I obviously don't look at heroism in the same way, because I've always believed that real heroes have to give something up, or face something so far beyond them that it means certain doom to achieve this level of victory. In these novels, that just wasn't there.
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 21:46:08
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Also, the Seldarine have a tradition of letting the Elves try most of what they want, which is why we have the Crown Wars, the interfering Myth Drannor Houses, etc. The Seldarine are Chaotic - Corellon is an enlightened leader, not a tyrant.
But I agree with Msatran that many of the best villains have been repeatedly being slain in the more recent novels... The Fey'ri were in large part defeated, the Cult of the Dragon has been severely weakened (including Sammaster), Auril's Chosen was killed, etc. I'm not sure why WotC is doing this, in particular, since it leaves much less for the PCs to actually do. If it's for the purpose of making evil more active in Faerun... Well, activity isn't very fulfilling if it ends in failure every time. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 14 Jul 2006 21:48:19 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 21:57:35
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I think my friend, we are discussing apples and oranges here...my whole point was your claim that you age in the afterlife so you cannot resurrect someone who has been dead past their natural lifespan...which then evolved into questioning you about the power Corellon would have had over the novel trilogy
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Ask Elaine Cunningham, she's a teacher. Which is considered a better story? One with a happy ending? Or one with a bittersweet one? Bittersweet endings are always better, because they leave the reader with questions, much like the questions that you are asking now.
Nothing beats the end of Hamlet, where the characters realize that "I fear that the election does fall on Fortinbras."
The Realms has the POTENTIAL to rise above the dime novel and become real LITERATURE. And when I see a novel series that has that potential, like this one did, and watch it wasted, I become disappointed.
That is just a judgment in the readers taste, two different Lit teachers may have two different views on that, there is no “better ending” in a book
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
And technically, True Ressurrection is as ressurrection. So he's got a limit of 10 years per level. That would make Seiveril a...uh...60+ Level Cleric. Now, if he's really a 60+ level cleric, he can retake Myth Drannor by himself. :) And the answer is, no, Corellon would NOT stop Fflar because Ao pretty much laid down the smackdown when he said "If you do not do things for your worshippers, then you are interfering too much in the ways of mortals." Elves may be exceptionally long lived mortals, but they're still mortals.
that’s so true, if you look at the spell description...but the novels often break RPG game rules to further the story line. And Ao has nothing to do with what the gods do OUTSIDE of Realmspace...if Corellon decides to send or not send an elven soul to the material realm that’s his business...and Ao would stop Corellon if Corellon was interfering with other god’s followers, not his own...if a god wants to screw over his worshippers that’s his choice (cause that’s just suicide for a god). Ao said “"If you do not do have the faith of your worshippers you die”
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
I don't believe in destiny, and the Realms doesn't either. Prophecies are left intentionally vague so that there are many means of fulfilling them. Some gods do, but great destinies in the Realms are rare.
if I were Fflar, I would need to redeem myself for allowing things to sink to the point where there was racism and dissent and murder in Myth Drannor before the fall. There is no question that Seiveril is a great hero, but I find myself asking "Does the end justify the means?"
that’s your opinion too, about destiny that is, I don’t hold much water for it either, but of course the Realms believe in Destiny, that is what prophesy is, a divine foretelling of what will happen...they are left intentionally vague so mortals will not easily know the future...I think that’s one of Ao’s duties too (in my opinion). I think the Return of the elves and the cleansing of Myth Drannor is a great Destiny. Like the destiny of an evil dragon raised good in Myth Drannor so it will fly over the throne and let lose the Nycaloths?
And correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t Fflar the equivalent of a teen-ager who was field promoted in the Weeping War? How could he have stopped the racism and intolerance at the end days of Myth Drannor?
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
And of course, then there's the Sarya problem, where I worked for four years to get my players to a point where they could fight Sarya, and now she dies in a pulp novel. You have no idea how much that stinks. I had one of my players tell me "Richard Baker is DEAD to me. Forgotten Realms Novels are Dead to me." And if you even so much as dare to tell me that these novels are more important than my gaming group, I'm pretty sure that both Richard and I will smack you, becuase that's not how the game is played. It's just that the burden of this now falls on me, virtually EVERY explanation I come up with is cheese on a stick, except Fey'ri Lich, and quite frankly, if I throw them up against a CR 24 Fey'ri Lich and Malkazid at the same time, I don't just THINK they'll die. I KNOW they'll die. :)
I've said this a thousand times and I'll say it again. If you create a villain in a bunch of sourcebooks, leave it for the PC's to deal with. There were a million new characters that Richard Baker could have created that would have made more interesting stories than Sarya and her Fey'ri horde.
Sheesh, that’s hostile  “And if you even so much as dare to tell me that these novels are more important than my gaming group, I'm pretty sure that both Richard and I will smack you, because that's not how the game is played” when did I ever say that you had to follow canon? I just think you are wrong on the resurrection point (or the ruling is stupid)
This series screwed up my campaign too, my campaign is a generational campaign set in the Upper Delimbyir Vale, in one game we were battling the Fey’ri until the first book came out and it turns out Sarya marched an infernal army through my city! Now I have to rethink and deal with over 2 years of canon timeline
And I thought the epilogue was poor in the last book, a happy ending is fine as ling as you don’t ignore logic and canon and make it a “happily ever after” ending. Fflar should have went back to Arvandor, Araevin should have died destroying the Waypoint, Sarya should have lived while Malkizd should have been destroyed (I thought the demon/devil/daemon lord was pretty lame to concern himself with one small world just to have revenge on Corellon)
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
I've said this a thousand times and I'll say it again. If you create a villain in a bunch of sourcebooks, leave it for the PC's to deal with. There were a million new characters that Richard Baker could have created that would have made more interesting stories than Sarya and her Fey'ri horde.
Agreed...
quote:
Originally posted by msatran
You and I obviously don't look at heroism in the same way, because I've always believed that real heroes have to give something up, or face something so far beyond them that it means certain doom to achieve this level of victory. In these novels, that just wasn't there.
what does my point has to do with heroism? I’m just talking about rules decisions, canon and the elven gods *l*
nice discussing with you  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2006 : 22:04:36
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quote:
That is just a judgment in the readers taste, two different Lit teachers may have two different views on that, there is no “better ending” in a book.
No, but you can certainly try to analyze endings to see which meet certain criteria more or less.
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that’s so true, if you look at the spell description...but the novels often break RPG game rules to further the story line. And Ao has nothing to do with what the gods do OUTSIDE of Realmspace...if Corellon decides to send or not send an elven soul to the material realm that’s his business...and Ao would stop Corellon if Corellon was interfering with other god’s followers, not his own...if a god wants to screw over his worshippers that’s his choice (cause that’s just suicide for a god). Ao said “"If you do not do have the faith of your worshippers you die”
Rich said specifically that he tries to keep as close to possible as the game rules.
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that’s your opinion too, about destiny that is, I don’t hold much water for it either, but of course the Realms believe in Destiny, that is what prophesy is, a divine foretelling of what will happen...
According to Ed Greenwood, 'destiny,' as we know of it, really doesn't exist in FR. There's always the chance for change.
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And correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t Fflar the equivalent of a teen-ager who was field promoted in the Weeping War? How could he have stopped the racism and intolerance at the end days of Myth Drannor?
Fflar was a minor officer in the Arkh'Velahr who was the only one left when the Weeping War started to infringe on Myth Drannor's actual territory. He was not a teenager; he was 125, which is at the very lower limits of young adult, but not a teenager.
Before this trilogy, we knew nothing of his race, alignment, or level. I would have preferred that he had stayed ambiguous, as it better represented the dream of Myth Drannor's unification of all races in peace. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 15 Jul 2006 01:28:12 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 00:40:58
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
Do you think Seiveril could have succeeded without Fflar?
Frankly, I'm surprised Severil succeeded at all, given how utterly obtuse he is. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 02:45:53
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I am now reading the final chapters of the book. Battle has come to the forest of Cormanthor...we have spells being slung, swords being swung, and cliches are flying like projectile weapons from the mouths of just about all of the major characters, especially Malkazid himself. "Your doom is at hand, Lord of Elion!" "Insolent mortal!" Truly, I think our good Branded King has the Big Bad Evil Guy routine down pat. Fflar wisely fights fire with fire, shouting "I do not fear you, devil!" Perhaps he should have said more stuff like this back during the Weeping War, eh? Or maybe not. It's not exactly enthralling.
I can't say I've been particularly moved by these battle scenes so far, but then again, I generally don't care all that much for war scenes in these books to begin with. However, another significant reason is because many of the characters dying on the battlefield are little more than bit players that we never really got to know, nor did they seem to be all that important to the main characters, either. For example, there is scene where Fflar discovers that Ferryl Nymersil, leader of the Moon Knights, has fallen. But I didn't feel anything, because this guy was just a bit player who likely had no more than a couple of lines in the past two books, and a line in the "Dramatis Personae" describing who he was. Also, I didn't quite get why Fflar felt so sad over the loss of his "friend" anymore than any other corpse lying on the battlefield, since the trilogy didn't exactly establish these two elves as good friends (and if it did, it must have been through a simple, forgotten sentence rather than something built up in the narrative).
Araevin and friends made it (not too safely) out of the Underdark, and I did like the way the magical battle between Araevin and the Sybil was described. However, I thought Araevin got Sybil's spell negation wand away from her too easily, with a simple telekinesis spell. I would think the Sybil would have been smart enough to actually protect such a valuable artifact, but whatever. Anyway, the ending of the scene was quite brilliant, with this wand colliding into the Sybil's sphere of annilation and creating...something of planar consequences.
They then travel to the Barrens of Doom and Despair from the Waymeet, and not even these harsh, oppressive places can put a damper on the inane questions and comments spewing forth from the likes of Araevin, Donnor, Nesterin, Jorin, and sometimes even Maresa. You'd think that locales such as these might make for more interesting conversation than half-baked questions about what this or that is (answered by Araevin as if to simple-minded pupils), or the stating of what should be bloodly obvious, both to the characters and the reader. The visit to Hell is quite short considering it's the ultimate leg of Araevin's journey (the resting place of the last McGuffin), but I don't think that's entirely a bad thing. After all, I did say I haven't found these "gamey" sections of the book to be particularly interesting, and the elves on Toril are certainly running out of time.
I do like the scene where the fey'ri are having their doubts about Sarya's leadership. Don't know why they loved her so much before, since it's pretty well established she cares about them only as far as they are useful to her, but whatever. It's an interesting scene. And at least Sarya's dialogue isn't nearly as goofy as Malkizid's...and he has no excuse for that, since he's had tens of thousands of years to practice.
Lastly, I've also noticed a few inconsistencies. A while back, we learned that Felael Springleap is informal wood elf who, when speaking to Seiveril, only uses Severil's given name, since he cares little about titles. Later in the book, he obeys Seiveril's command with a hearty "Yes, Lord Miritar!"
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 04:11:34
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| Yeah, as far as Malkazid's concerned, Rin, I have to agree with you. He needs to fire his speechwriter. :) |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 14:53:31
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| I'm sure one of Malkizid's chief goals is to update his storehouse of colloquialisms. He just hasn't gotten around to it yet what with his diabolical planning and whatnot. Further, now that Fflar has saved Myth Drannor, I'm sure he's going to do everything he can to improve upon his own war cries, especially when dealing with devils. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 18:35:58
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Ask Elaine Cunningham, she's a teacher.
If you've got questions about music or history, I'd be happy to oblige, but I've never taught literature. I had opinions on the matter, of course, but lack the degree needed to give those opinions the ring of authority. |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 20:12:59
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Actually, Elaine, it's the concept of what constitutes history WITHIN literature that makes your opinion valuble here. One of the most valuble, and rarely talked about novels that accurately portrays the way the tea companies completely exploited people is called Max Haavellar. Virtually no one in America has read this book, but, nonetheless, the portrayal of what went on during that time period is exceptionally accurate. Dickens greatest novel is clearly Bleak House, but for teaching history, there is virtually NO resource that is better at describing working conditions in the 19th century in England than Hard Times. :)
Just don't sell yourself short. You may not have the best D+D tactical writing skills, and I always think "Arilyn could have handled this much smarter," but you clearly have the best prose out of everyone. Don't cut yourself off at the knees. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 20:57:17
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| Personally, I prefer slower stories with people in it instead of fights all the time...I haven't read all the latest stuff yet, still lots of catching up to do, but hopefully they will be more in the vein of your work, Elaine, and that of Eric Scott de Bie, than that of others who give plenty of room for combat but non to the people... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 21:41:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Crust
I'm sure one of Malkizid's chief goals is to update his storehouse of colloquialisms. He just hasn't gotten around to it yet what with his diabolical planning and whatnot. Further, now that Fflar has saved Myth Drannor, I'm sure he's going to do everything he can to improve upon his own war cries, especially when dealing with devils.
quote:
Yeah, as far as Malkazid's concerned, Rin, I have to agree with you. He needs to fire his speechwriter. :)
You guys are killing me with sidesplitting laughter. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 23:11:23
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And so at last, Lord Seiveril Miritar, the dim-witted priest of Corellon who raised Fflar from the dead and was looked up to (inexplicably) by the Crusade of Evermeet as leader, has finally passed on from the face of Toril. And he did it in the manner that could not have been more appropriate--by being his usual witless self.
From the very first novel in this series, I never thought Seiveril was a very bright bulb, and Final Gate certainly didn't improve my opinion any. In the very first scene in which Seivy appears, we see this supposedly powerful and wise leader of elves guilelessly wondering if he could look to the City of Shade for help against Sarya. Throughout the book, this doddering old fool has not done anything that would mark him as either a brilliant strategist or even someone who would inspire so much loyalty and respect...just about every "decision" of his has really been someone else's idea (Fflar's, Araevin's, Ilsevele's). But at last, in the final stretches of Final Gate...Seiveril, your stupidity caught up with you for once, and you've done gone an' got yerself killed!
During the attack by the Crusade on the occupied city of Myth Drannor, the oblivious elflord ran like a dodo through the city, unprotected, shouting "Victory is at hand!" all the way up to Sarya's stronghold. Even Fflar was pissed off at this, muttering "What's he doing now?" to himself. Since the clueless cleric was pretty much standing alone on the steps of Castle Cormanthor all by himself (with demons and the like poring out of it), it was only a matter of time before Xhalph decided to do something useful for once and stick three swords into the blockhead's back, pull them back out, and summarily toss Seiveril down the stairs. All in all this was an awesome scene, as it shows how intelligent the enemies here can be--Xhalph gets away from the elves for the moment--and it shows what happens to leaders who are so naive as to let their guard down and call a battle a "victory" before it's even been won.
And so with that, Seiveril dies, but not before the dunce is able to spout off just about every cliche known to man, because Ilsevele and Fflar are conveniently right by his side by that point.
As for the comments before about Araevin sacrificing love for power. I have to agree that I don't really see much of a sacrifice at all, as it is suggested in one scene near the end of the book that Ilsevele and Araevin have been growing apart for years--it's not like their love had been passionate up until Araevin underwent his transformation. Araevin did loose the trust of Evermeet's High Mages (and by extension, Evermeet itself), but since it seems to me like he didn't care all that much about their opinions to begin with, what has he really lost here? This gold elf mage almost never thought about how the change affected him up until he met up with Ilsevele again...and since he was adventuring with another elf (Nesterin), even as disposable as the star elf may have been, you'd think Araevin would have been thinking about his emotional connections with other elves long before he got back to Cormanthor. It seems to me as if the transformation rite was only important to this series insofar as it affected plot rather than characters (contrary to what the book cover blurb leads one to believe).
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 15 Jul 2006 23:24:07 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2006 : 23:23:58
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Dear Lady Rinonalyrna, you are evil...and that is good :-)
No seriously, in the beginning I was kinda excited about the entire trilogy, it had a cartload of great staging points, but that was that... It's sad to see that describtions were repeated ad nauseum, I mean when characters are introduced, sure you need to know what they look like, but in the second and third book of a trilogy....which knucklehead would read a second or a third part of something without knowing the beginning? Hell, I waited a year until I dug up The Dragonbone Chair because my mom gave me Part II as a present... there are merits to that, of course, if you have a memory of a leaking bucket and only remember the chunky bits, but5 I'd assume that these kind of people do not read books anyway, they watch Xena... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Final Gate: Chapters 15 - 18 & Epilogue
