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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 02:42:50
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
It all depends on what one considers to be disrepair. For magic that powerful and ancient, I would personally consider knocking it over to be damaging it - at least, damaging it as it stands, if not the actual stone itself. I would think that as it is a STANDING stone, preventing it from standing would be considered damage. :)
Right--I am assuming (and yes, I could be wrong) that the Standing Stone has magic on it so ancient and powerful that you can't get rid of it just by "cheating". And as I said before--if it were possible to use those "cheating" tactics to get rid of the Stone, I have no doubt in my mind that someone would have come up with those plans a long time ago, and the Stone would be long gone by now. IIRC, the Standing Stone was pretty "controversial", so it's not like Sarya's the only one who's ever wanted to destroy it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 02:49:17
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
I am glad to see the Retreat at an end and elves reclaiming what was once theirs...
This is a super personal thing (some may call it blasphemy), but I feel both the Retreat and the Return are a little overhyped. It's not like there weren't elves of the mainland of Faerun until this series occured. All of my elven PCs either left Evermeet to adventure and even settle in Faerun (they "Returned" by themselves), or they came from families who never even left the mainland.
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I also liked to see the portrayal of the Sun Elves as heroic and self-sacrificing for the good of the "People" and even the Dalesfolk.
Good point, but again, it's not like there have never been heroic and self-sacrificing sun elves in FR lore before.
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I didn't get the feeling that an epic was unfolding. At the personal level, Araevin, Ilsevele, Seiveril and Fflar's stories didn't quite move me either.
I'm not finished with the book yet, but these are pretty much my own feelings as well.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Jul 2006 02:50:17 |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 03:21:36
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I loved the Last Mythal series. I had this to say about Final Gate on the novels forum:
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I understand about the "paper doll" characters. One could say that characters like Nesterin and Donner were just "NPCs" with no depth. I've heard the same idea come up with the Rogue Dragon books AND City of Splendors. Though I do understand those feelings, and even though I might share them to a degree, I didn't care one bit. I could tell the difference between them without having to be given names, so I had no major gripes about that. I don't necessarily expect whatever it is people are expecting in these novels.
I loved the characters. Araevin and his "party," so classic. Severil, Fflar, Ilsevele, Selkirk, Sarya, Xalph, MALKAZID... The moments with Scylua and Fzoul... Slam DUNK! Scylua's maiming of that beholder was an awesome scene. We need a whole novel dealing with her. Scylua vs. Alusair. Make it happen.
The quests were solid in my book. The portal journeys... Lorosfyr (nice reference to Underdark... I looked it up immediately ), the Barrens (which was a real treat, since I've taken my PCs to that plane), and the Waymeet were all so vivid in my mind. I also really enjoyed the military campaign. Final Gate's battles just about matched those from Death of the Dragon (which were utter gore fests), and the great battle through the streets of Myth Drannor was just so epic not only on a power level but on a Realmsfan level as well. It was just a great moment.
I like the idea of the elves Return. It allows for more drama in the future. The elves have retaken Myth Drannor! That's incredible. I also really appreciated the glimpse of the future at the end. Ilsevele as Coronal, wielding the Ruler's Blade as a scepter... Very nicely done.
I liked how the main foes were killed or banished. Some concrete finality! I was pleased that Sarya didn't slink away to fight another day. I loved how Fflar bested Xalph with such ease, and Araevin's defeat of Sarya was great.
Araevin's spellcasting was immaculate! I loved every moment of his high magic casting. I have such a statuesque, stately, rigidly powerful image of him. He's great. I also appreciated how he and Ilsevele closed the book on their relationship. Araevin choosing (consciously or unconsciously) magic over love reminds me of Raistlin for some reason, and I like that. Fflar and Ilsevele falling for each other so quickly... even they knew it was odd. No complaints here.
Sev's death was sad but still cool. It's true, he knew he was going to die, but it wasn't hand-fed to us or beaten to death. I liked that a lot. I still LOVE the fact that he actually resurrected Fflar. I'm still stunned by that.
Another thing that I REALLY appreciated about this series is the perspective it gives for FR DMs. The series is a great companion for anyone's FR campaign. There's so much fantastic Realmslore, of course, but there are also a lot of things happening in the novel that could also be happening at an epic or near-epic gaming table. The fashioning of mythals and the dabbling in epic spellcasting. Confrontations with hordes of fiends and an arch-fiend (Malkazid). A detailed military campaign involving humans, elves, (no dwarves, sadly ), demons, devils, yugoloths, and fey'ri. The execution of large-scale battles involving high-level magic, fiends, flying creatures, etc. Such great food for any campaign, and a great role-playing reference as well.
The Last Mythal series really takes me back to my first experiences with Spellfire, Shadow of the Avatar, and other Greenwood greats that, for me, showcase the Realms as they truly are. I definitely consider Last Mythal required reading.
I felt like the plot made sense, and I felt for the characters. Araevin might not have much of a personality, but I didn't see that as some flaw in the character design. He's almost like an android of magic, or something like that. He doesn't have emotions like normal elves (or he's cut off from that spectrum). I bought right into that. I thought it was super cool. Araevin choose magic over love, and it saved Myth Drannor.
Fflar's character might have seemed weak, but he himself was weak in that regard. He was confused about who he was from the beginning. That's pretty clear in the reading.
And what I mean by comparing Last Mythal to Greenwood books is the whole cast of characters angle. Big names like Storm, Malkizid, Fzoul, etc. etc... Also, as has been mentioned before, the Realms lore is literally foaming out of the pages in this trilogy. There are plenty of differences, of course. I just had that feeling of fun and excitement with Last Mythal. I couldn't put the books down. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 03:24:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Crust
I felt like the plot made sense, and I felt for the characters. Araevin might not have much of a personality, but I didn't see that as some flaw in the character design. He's almost like an android of magic, or something like that. He doesn't have emotions like normal elves (or he's cut off from that spectrum).
The reason I have to disagree with this: none of the protagonists seem to have much of a personality--it's not like I think Araevin is unique in that respect. So personally, I can't accept the "android of magic" explanation, unless the other main heroic characters are also all androids of some sort. The only character that I feel has a spark of life in her is Maresa, and she isn't even an elf.
It's not like I'm telling you to feel the same way I do (that's not a desirable goal), just clarifying my personal feelings about the novel so they are more easily understood, and explaining why the flaws I perceive in this book cannot be rationalized in such a simple manner. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Jul 2006 03:28:00 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 03:58:17
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| And note that it's normal for Sun Elves to not express their emotions in ways that most people can perceive. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 06:43:55
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Your assertion that Araevin actually chose Magic over Love and saved Myth Drannor is a crock. Araevin did not actually choose magic over love, because he never really HAD her love at any point during the story.
He's lost Ilsevele from page one of the first book, and we all know it. In other words, he loses nothing. The price he had to pay for this power was meaningless. Becoming celestial? I don't buy that as a situation for sacrifice at all. Giving up experience points so that he advances more slowly is NOT a sacrifice.
In order to have a sacrifice be meaningful, there must be LOSS, not just change. There is no loss, because he never really had Ilsevele to begin with, and Mr. Baker pretty much telegraphed his punches with that.
The only thing he really sacrificed was the Waypoint, and the Waypoint was neither necessary nor useful. It seemed almost like Sarya's appearance there at the end was doubly contrived when she could have gone anywhere in the Realms to regroup.
He didn't sacrifice any relationships because the relationships weren't strong enough that their loss was meaningful.
Plus, Fflar should STILL be dead. Even if he was 125 when Myth Drannor fell, he's still obligated to actually age all the years in between, which would make him about 650, or well into the Venerable age category. Even True Ressurrection doesn't allow you to simply skip the intervening years of life.
So what spell did Seiveril Meiritar use to return him to life? (He can use two. 5000 XP for a miracle to make him return at the age he was when he died, and then True Ressurrection thereafter to make sure he doesn't lose any levels.) But given all the other things he did, I'm not sure he had 5,000 XP to spend... |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 07:25:46
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
And note that it's normal for Sun Elves to not express their emotions in ways that most people can perceive.
That sounds like an excuse to me, and as I've said elsewhere, doesn't at all explain why every non-elven character in the trilogy is just as robotic, flat, and has all the emotional/personality depth of a small pebble. |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 16:25:20
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
And note that it's normal for Sun Elves to not express their emotions in ways that most people can perceive.
I'd say this is more of an interpretation... and a valid one at that.
I really don't know what people are expecting in an FR novel. Final Gate's characters have as much depth as any characters confined to a trilogy. It might be a good idea to just stop reading FR if the books are so poor.
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"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 11 Jul 2006 16:27:42 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 16:49:35
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quote:
That sounds like an excuse to me, and as I've said elsewhere, doesn't at all explain why every non-elven character in the trilogy is just as robotic, flat, and has all the emotional/personality depth of a small pebble.
I wasn't trying to make it an excuse. I would have preferred if the Sun Elves HAD shown emotion in subtle ways that only really careful readers could have figured out*. Winterfox, I trust you are one, and if you didn't pick up any cues (nor did Rino), I am inclined to think that they weren't there. ;)
* An example is the fact that, while adventuring outside of Evermeet, one of my Sun Elven characters always wears gloves. ALWAYS.
But I haven't read the books yet. I still have the first one on my desk, in line after my Jacqueline Carey books, a China Mieville, some Neil Gaiman, some Elaine Cunningham.. It'll take me awhile to get to it.
And to Crust - who says that all FR books are poor? Not implying that these ones are or are not, but you seem to be generalizing a few peoples' negative criticisms about ONE trilogy in question to think that they do not like any FR books! |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 11 Jul 2006 16:51:34 |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 17:23:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
[quote]: none of the protagonists seem to have much of a personality
That was my impression too. They kind of just moved through the plot. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 17:33:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Crust
I really don't know what people are expecting in an FR novel. Final Gate's characters have as much depth as any characters confined to a trilogy.
I disagree. Strongly. Pretty much most FR novels I've read have better characters than those in the Last Mythal trilogy. As a matter of fact, there're quite a few minor characters who appear for two pages in some books, and never show up again, that I find more colorful, more interesting, and more real than the main characters in Last Mythal.
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It might be a good idea to just stop reading FR if the books are so poor.
Uh-huh. What does that have to do with comments pertaining to this one trilogy and this one only again?
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I wasn't trying to make it an excuse. I would have preferred if the Sun Elves HAD shown emotion in subtle ways that only really careful readers could have figured out*. Winterfox, I trust you are one, and if you didn't pick up any cues (nor did Rino), I am inclined to think that they weren't there. ;)
To be sure, the gold elves in this trilogy do have emotions. But the problem is that they're all told, just like their personality. For every book, when a character appears, you will have a paragraph stuffing descriptions down your throat, going on about the character's looks and personality. The character's dialogue and actions don't necessarily agree with the initial description, and at any rate, everybody's dialogue is interchangable, be they human or elven.
At least, that's what I think, anyway. But I'll leave you to form your own opinions. After reading Mieville, Carey (Kushiel books or that godawful Banewreaker?) and EC, though, the Last Mythal will more likely than not feel horribly insipid. |
Edited by - Winterfox on 11 Jul 2006 17:39:14 |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 18:06:38
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
And to Crust - who says that all FR books are poor?
Heh... I don't know. Who did say that? I certainly didn't say that. When you find the person who did, let me know. 
I just see a lot of negativity as oppose to positivity. If certain novels bring out the negative, maybe it's time to move on to reading that doesn't spark such negativity... Unless one prefers focusing on and embracing negativity.
...not that there's anything wrong with that.  |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 11 Jul 2006 18:08:09 |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 18:25:33
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Interestingly, the handful of grognards still on the Realms-L list are pointing out how nice it is to have a Trilogy of Realms Novels such as the Last Mythal books that fit the old-school feel that Realms novels supposedly 'used to have'.
That's hard-won priase, to be sure.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 18:28:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
Interestingly, the handful of grognards still on the Realms-L list are pointing out how nice it is to have a Trilogy of Realms Novels such as the Last Mythal books that fit the old-school feel that Realms novels supposedly 'used to have'.
That's hard-won priase, to be sure.
J. Grenemyer
Well-said. I agree that's the trilogy's strongest aspect. That's exactly what I mean when comparing Last Mythal to books like Spellfire. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 18:32:32
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| And note that the old-school FR novels were chopped up and diced into things that Ed Greenwood never wanted them to be (full of combat and action with little plot or character development, and a bunch of bungling villains). |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 18:45:19
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
And note that the old-school FR novels were chopped up and diced into things that Ed Greenwood never wanted them to be (full of combat and action with little plot or character development, and a bunch of bungling villains).
I must say that the action level has not exactly been reduced in the newer novels. Now, there is a different feel to many of the older novels that I myself miss, this has little to do with TSR's code of conduct or the different writers interpretations of the realms. I agree that the older novels had their weaknesses to, but there were as many highpoints among these as among the newer novels. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 18:56:46
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I agree. I prefer the older novels more, but that's not really topical, is it?
So, I'll skiddaddle for now until something more topical catches my interest. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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RichardBaker
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
129 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 20:33:13
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Remember, the elves Retreated from the Elven Court only in 1344 DR. So it's only been sitting around "unattended" for 30 years or so, and in that time, who's really had a good oppportunity and motive to go and knock it down? I'd think most enemies of the elves would have regarded the Stone as no longer important after the Retreat in any event, so I'm not sure why some villain (other than Sarya, who certainly had some personal feelings about what it symbolized) would go to the trouble.
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
It all depends on what one considers to be disrepair. For magic that powerful and ancient, I would personally consider knocking it over to be damaging it - at least, damaging it as it stands, if not the actual stone itself. I would think that as it is a STANDING stone, preventing it from standing would be considered damage. :)
But, anyway, I'd like to hear Rich's explanation of it, as Rino inquired.
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Rich Baker
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 20:42:50
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Okay, Rich. That is a possibility, for sure, though 30 years can be a very long time to humans (especially when they don't live to ripe old ages as they do today). But how was it done without the use of equally powerful magic that raised it in the first place - a High Magic Ritual that most likely involved numerous High Magi? Or, if you like, without an Epic Spell?
I would think that the Standing Stone would have been one of the first things the Drow would have taken down, myself.
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Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 11 Jul 2006 20:43:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 22:39:10
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I would think that the Standing Stone would have been one of the first things the Drow would have taken down, myself.
To what end? Doing that would just call attention to themselves, and that's again assuming that the Stone's protections wouldn't prevent that... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 23:27:16
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Which is somewhat of my point with the Fey'ri, too. Both chaotic evil, intelligent, proud, magic-using subraces of Elves....
Ah well. Thanks, Rich! |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 11 Jul 2006 23:59:01 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 23:55:30
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quote:
Originally posted by RichardBaker
Remember, the elves Retreated from the Elven Court only in 1344 DR. So it's only been sitting around "unattended" for 30 years or so, and in that time, who's really had a good oppportunity and motive to go and knock it down? I'd think most enemies of the elves would have regarded the Stone as no longer important after the Retreat in any event, so I'm not sure why some villain (other than Sarya, who certainly had some personal feelings about what it symbolized) would go to the trouble.
Well, anything is possible, as I see it. But thank you for giving me an answer. I really appreciate it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 00:34:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Crust
I really don't know what people are expecting in an FR novel. Final Gate's characters have as much depth as any characters confined to a trilogy. It might be a good idea to just stop reading FR if the books are so poor.
Come on, Crust. No one here has stated "the FR books are all poor"--I like you, but don't give me that BS.
My opinion is what it is, and it isn't going to change just because some people don't like it. I wasn't expecting The Illiad, here, but I strongly disagree that "Final Gate's characters have as much depth as any characters confined to a trilogy." Fine if that's your opinion, but don't act as if it's a fact. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 12 Jul 2006 00:34:32 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 00:36:15
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| Phedre and Joscelin were confined to a trilogy (albeit one of much greater length), and they were absolutely fascinating. /fanboy. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 00:38:55
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I wasn't trying to make it an excuse. I would have preferred if the Sun Elves HAD shown emotion in subtle ways that only really careful readers could have figured out*. Winterfox, I trust you are one, and if you didn't pick up any cues (nor did Rino), I am inclined to think that they weren't there. ;)
Yeah--even if sun elves appear to have no emotion to other people in the setting, that's no excuse for not conveying their emotions to the reader. Unless they have no emotions (which isn't the case here).
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And to Crust - who says that all FR books are poor? Not implying that these ones are or are not, but you seem to be generalizing a few peoples' negative criticisms about ONE trilogy in question to think that they do not like any FR books!
I got that impression, myself. I can honestly say I like most FR books I read, hate none of them (except one), and feel indifferent about the rest. This book is pretty much in the last group, although even then there are some things I like about it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 00:46:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Crust
I just see a lot of negativity as oppose to positivity. If certain novels bring out the negative, maybe it's time to move on to reading that doesn't spark such negativity...
Yeah, but you were implying that people move on from the setting, which I don't think anyone here has any intention of doing.
And by the way, if you read my critiques carefully, you will find that they are pretty much an even mixture of positive and negative...which cancel each other out to "about average". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 02:23:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Crust
I really don't know what people are expecting in an FR novel. Final Gate's characters have as much depth as any characters confined to a trilogy. It might be a good idea to just stop reading FR if the books are so poor.
Come on, Crust. No one here has stated "the FR books are all poor"--I like you, but don't give me that BS.
My opinion is what it is, and it isn't going to change just because some people don't like it. I wasn't expecting The Illiad, here, but I strongly disagree that "Final Gate's characters have as much depth as any characters confined to a trilogy." Fine if that's your opinion, but don't act as if it's a fact.
I wasn't referring to you specifically, Rin... I'm flattered you thought so, though! 
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"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 12 Jul 2006 02:35:24 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 02:37:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Crust
I wasn't referring to you specifically, Rin... I'm flattered you thought so, though!
 Okay, I'm sorry. No hard feelings from me, in any case. As I said before, I don't consider it a desirable goal to try to convince people not to like something they like, or even vice versa.
Take care. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 02:39:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I don't consider it a desirable goal to try to convince people not to like something they like, or even vice versa.
That's awesome! Me neither. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 12 Jul 2006 02:42:21 |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 17:31:09
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Actually, it CAN be a desirable goal. There used to be this thing called debate. And people would debate things instead of yelling at each other. We can do THAT instead, you know. :)
Better an informed opinion than an uninformed one. |
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Final Gate: Chapters 15 - 18 & Epilogue
