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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Jul 2006 : 08:07:45
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| What Mace said. I mean, that question can't be asked much more politely, unless it's not to be asked at all. |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2006 : 08:29:10
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quote:
In fact, the original epilogue I wrote for the book depicted the ceremony at the Standing Stone (new or old, I didn't say) where the new Compact was sworn to by all.
Just out of curiousuty Richard, what did you envision as the new Dales compact?.. Same as the old but with new people? Or something different? |
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RichardBaker
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
129 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2006 : 22:17:17
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It seems to me that the "at all" at the end of the question elevates it from a sincere question to a rather snarky dismissal of the book. The question also implies that I don't care enough about my work to perform basic research on the topic. Neither is particularly polite, in my opinion.
I've explained my response and I consider the matter closed. Let's move on.
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
What Mace said. I mean, that question can't be asked much more politely, unless it's not to be asked at all.
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Rich Baker
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
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RichardBaker
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
129 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2006 : 22:24:35
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First and foremost, the new Compact has to take into account not just the Dalesfolk, but the surrounding powers as well. Cormanthyr needs to come to some understanding with Cormyr, Sembia, and even the Moonsea cities about how Myth Drannor will exist in the middle of otherwise human lands. Conflict with Sembia is inevitable in the absence of some lasting agreement about just how far Sembia can grow to the north and just how forestry ought to be managed in southern Cormanthor. Reestablishing an elven kingdom in the heart of the Dales gets a lot tougher if the big powers surrounding the Dales don't really recognize its borders. That cuts two ways--Myth Drannor also needs to reassure Sembia, Cormyr, etc., that it won't expand out of the Dales and subvert/marginalize human nations nearby. It's a smaller, more crowded, less wild Cormanthor than it used to be, and the old agreements need to be reexamined.
quote:
Originally posted by El Magnifico Uno
quote:
In fact, the original epilogue I wrote for the book depicted the ceremony at the Standing Stone (new or old, I didn't say) where the new Compact was sworn to by all.
Just out of curiousuty Richard, what did you envision as the new Dales compact?.. Same as the old but with new people? Or something different?
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Rich Baker
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 00:10:58
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| Very interesting.. Did you have any ideas worked up along those lines already? Am working on a project post-"Last Mythal" and if you could PM me or post any ideas I'd be most appreciative.. How could the elves really enforce any sort of Compact with Moonsea?.. Back in the day it would be easy, the elves were the big boys on the block and if you crossed them your life expectancy quickly dropped down towards zero.. Current timeline, not so easy for those pointy-eared leaf-eaters.. How would you see a New Cormanthyr dealing with the "axis of evil" to the north, and a capitalistic and grasping Sembia to the south that is no huge fan of elves either? ((If your answer is "very carefully" I will pout)) |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 01:13:09
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| Sorry to hear you feel that way.. Personally I find the phrase over-the-top and sensationalistic (hence my deep abiding fondness for it).. But one must admit, given the predominant worship of Bane and other dread gods, the Moonsea cities most certainly do qualify as an axis of evil, regardless of whatever delicate political sensibilities one may possess.. However, in order to prevent any sidetracking of the topic at hand (The Last Mythal in general and the Dales Compact in particular), I can easily be reached via PM regarding the interesting and often varied prose that lies within my postings.. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 16:40:50
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Hi again. I've been reading some of the posts regarding the new sourcebook Mysteries of the Moonsea, and I was dismayed to discover that a book that was supposed to be a kind of hybrid-regional sourcebook (in addition to a set of link adventures) in the Moonsea didn't make any reference to the events of the Last Mythal. I'd be hard pressed to think of a greater shake-up of the status-quo in that area during the published Realms timeline, and it's completely ignored, resulting in at least 1/4 of the book's lore to be obsolete before it was even published.
And apparently, the reason that the designers didn't include all of these momentous changes in their book is that the Novels department didn't deign to tell them what they were doing with the area. I'd just like to ask why, as the author and someone fairly high up in WOTC's heirarchy (I haven't a clue where you rank, actually, I just know it's somewhere), it wasn't possible to share at least an outline, and preferably the entire novel, with the designers so that the product they created was relevant to the modern Realms? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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RichardBaker
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
129 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 20:02:02
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Yeah, I was disappointed with that too. I do not directly oversee the creation of Realms products these days (I did a couple of years back), so I was not involved in the Moonsea outlining or design process. I did not realize that it was pretty much pre-Last Mythal until Moonsea was in galleys (typesetting), at which point it was too late to do anything other than make sure that we put the right date in the Introduction.
Now, to be fair, I *could* have insisted on taking a close look at the sourcebook or the outline early on in the process. I didn't for two reasons: One, I'm trying to not creatively direct the Realms these days, because that isn't my job description any more and I need to give other folks plenty of room to be creative; and two, I was lazy and didn't make a point of checking on Moonsea because I had lots of other stuff on my plate. Somewhere between me, the creative director, the freelance designers, or our Books people we ought to have made sure we were on the same page.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Hi again. I've been reading some of the posts regarding the new sourcebook Mysteries of the Moonsea, and I was dismayed to discover that a book that was supposed to be a kind of hybrid-regional sourcebook (in addition to a set of link adventures) in the Moonsea didn't make any reference to the events of the Last Mythal. I'd be hard pressed to think of a greater shake-up of the status-quo in that area during the published Realms timeline, and it's completely ignored, resulting in at least 1/4 of the book's lore to be obsolete before it was even published.
And apparently, the reason that the designers didn't include all of these momentous changes in their book is that the Novels department didn't deign to tell them what they were doing with the area. I'd just like to ask why, as the author and someone fairly high up in WOTC's heirarchy (I haven't a clue where you rank, actually, I just know it's somewhere), it wasn't possible to share at least an outline, and preferably the entire novel, with the designers so that the product they created was relevant to the modern Realms?
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Rich Baker
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 21:48:32
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| Thats a pretty interesting insight Richard, thanks for letting us know some behind the scenes information. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 21:52:19
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quote:
Originally posted by RichardBaker
Yeah, I was disappointed with that too. I do not directly oversee the creation of Realms products these days (I did a couple of years back)
Do you mean that there is nobody with this job currently ? |
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RichardBaker
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
129 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 23:25:06
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Not specifically; it's included with direction/oversight of D&D as a whole. Our R&D department is about half the size that it was a couple of years ago. When the Pokemon craze began to fade away (as everybody realized it would) Wizards underwent several reorganizations to reconfigure as a leaner, meaner, core hobby-oriented operation. RPG R&D contracted too, which is why we no longer had the luxury of a dedicated Realms director and I went back to full-time design and development. In that role you really pay attention to one product at a time, which is the one that you're assigned to.
As it's worked out, I've been assigned to few Realms projects in the last year or so, spending a lot of time on core D&D and a couple of special projects like Axis & Allies Miniatures. I had very little to do with Moonsea, Shining South, Serpent Kingdoms, Power of Faerun, Champions of Faerun, or Champions of Ruin. I worked a lot on Waterdeep with Eric Boyd, and I have recently contributed to Cormyr (and a couple of other 2007 Realms projects), but other than that the last Realms products I really was involved with were Underdark and Lost Empires of Faerun. And Last Mythal, of course!
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by RichardBaker
Yeah, I was disappointed with that too. I do not directly oversee the creation of Realms products these days (I did a couple of years back)
Do you mean that there is nobody with this job currently ?
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Rich Baker
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 01:23:24
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| Very interesting. Thanks for filling all of us in. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 01:38:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Very interesting. Thanks for filling all of us in.
Hehe, it can explains a lot of things  |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 09:12:54
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Thank you, Richard. It's nice to hear that someone kind of shoved you out of the loop, as I initially suspected. My recommendations are that sometime before 1380, the Zhents suffer some sort of military reversal that puts Maalthiir back in charge, because quite frankly, Maalthiir is too cool and cult classic to lose. Evil Racist humans are always awesome enemies, because their motivations are more perceivable by the playerbase at large.
Plus, what you have right now is kind of depressing, because it's like Stalin arriving in town and saying "Mr. Hitler, go home to Austria." The sheer radiant joy on my PC's faces when they finally get to Maalthiir (When that group reaches 19th-20th level) should be worth paying money for. My problem is, because I use training rules, to keep PC's from magic wanding themselves in 2.5 years to be as powerful as Elminster, I'm somewhere in 1380-1381.
More and more, the Realms is becoming "Novel Dependant." This, I don't think is a good thing, because while it is designed to sell product, it ALSO places us in the position of having to retconn/rewrite/revamp entire sections of our long running games because of "Pre-Crisis Continuity." In general, I would prefer supplements where NO information that occurs in the novels is included, so individual GMs have more leeway to play with the world. More and more, the novels are becoming event traps for preexisting D+D campaigns. (See my earlier post where I mentioned having to stick up for my players because one of them told me "Richard Baker is dead to me! Forgotten Realms Novels are Dead To Me!") In my game, I pretty much had to throw an Amulet of Dramatic Death on Sarya just to give my player who wrote a gorgeous background the story he wanted and slaved for six pages and four years of play over.
Is what I'm saying selfish? I'll say right now, YES! YES IT IS! But for those of us who run long term Realms worlds, the current format of "Novels=Earthshaking Realms Events" is very painful and difficult to overcome. The thing that always made the Realms fun was its PEOPLE, not the Earth Shattering Cosmic Crises of Shadow Weave Magicians, Netherese Kings, Phaerimm, and Sarrukh, each more ridiculously powerful than the last.
For all of this, it's the little stories that count, the stories about people, the stories about life and how to live it, because most people don't wake up in the morning and decide "You know...I think I'll be an adventurer this morning..." And there was always a price, a high price to pay for those who were.
And with every series of cosmically oriented novels, I think we lose a little more of that. And that's too bad. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2006 : 23:32:58
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Thank you, Richard. It's nice to hear that someone kind of shoved you out of the loop, as I initially suspected. My recommendations are that sometime before 1380, the Zhents suffer some sort of military reversal that puts Maalthiir back in charge, because quite frankly, Maalthiir is too cool and cult classic to lose.
I agree...some villains (and from what I recall about Maalthiir, he's actually neutral alignment-wise, although that could have changed) are just too interesting to get rid off.
quote:
The thing that always made the Realms fun was its PEOPLE, not the Earth Shattering Cosmic Crises of Shadow Weave Magicians, Netherese Kings, Phaerimm, and Sarrukh, each more ridiculously powerful than the last.
For all of this, it's the little stories that count, the stories about people, the stories about life and how to live it...
I'd like to echo that sentiment.  I've long been a fan of smaller scale personal stories, myself. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2006 : 00:19:41
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I enjoyed the series for the most part.. even if I think there was more continuity damage done to the elves the last year between these 4 books and Bladesinger then was done by TSR and their conflicting products. *shrugs* Either way I'm sure it'll all iron out eventually in my own mind, one way or another. I might even have to reread the trilogy soon because there's a lot to absorb here and I've only read the trilogy once (as each novel came out.) I did NOT like the Epilogue because it cements the future and since NONE of the sourcebooks cover the events of the trilogy, it makes no sense to tell us what will happen... I thought WOTC didn't like telling us how to run the Realms. *snickers*
I am looking forward the reading Ed's upcoming work to find out what happened with the Shrinshee and HOPE it'll touch on what happens when she comes back with the Ruler's Blade and how Ilsevele gets to be Coronal. I wonder about Evermeet too now.
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2006 : 19:49:32
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Maybe if we're lucky someone will cast an Earthquake spell at a critical juncture and it will sink beneath the waves.
DOWN WITH ELVES! UP WITH DWARVES! NO MORE SHORT SHRIFT! NO MORE SHORT JOKES!
;0 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2006 : 20:02:33
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Maybe if we're lucky someone will cast an Earthquake spell at a critical juncture and it will sink beneath the waves.
DOWN WITH ELVES! UP WITH DWARVES! NO MORE SHORT SHRIFT! NO MORE SHORT JOKES!
;0
Zwergenaufstand |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2006 : 01:24:48
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| But I like Elves. Actually, I like Sun Elves a lot. Which are probably more Dwarven than they'd ever want to admit. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2006 : 03:31:33
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I am going to ask a question, and my question is sincere. Also, I am assuming that it really is "official" that the Standing Stone got pulled down...
If it were that easy to knock the stone down, how come no one up until now has ever done it before? Surely Sarya isn't the only one who had an interest in getting rid of it.
Thanks,
RF
quote:
Originally posted by RichardBaker
The story doesn't say, so I don't know how "official" this answer is, but yes, I think Sarya had the thing knocked down. I suppose it's possible that the fey'ri just didn't get to it as fast as she might have liked, but I think Sarya's minions understood that she wanted it pulled down and pronto.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 09 Jul 2006 03:32:29 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 05:07:12
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| I believe it was raised, at least, using Elven High Magic. So it's not like it was just, you know, a big stone thing that could be knocked down with purely physical means, or probably not even via just "blasting" magic or the like. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 19:44:00
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Look, I may not agree with Rich's treatment of events, but that doesn't mean I don't understand that it's really easy to knock the Standing Stone down.
Watch this:
Rock to Mud/Move Earth. That's it.
The stone doesn't levitate, it doesn't do anything unusual that would prevent it from just sucking out the ground around it and making it fall over. This really is not that hard, guys. :) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 20:19:01
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Look, I may not agree with Rich's treatment of events, but that doesn't mean I don't understand that it's really easy to knock the Standing Stone down.
Watch this:
Rock to Mud/Move Earth. That's it.
The stone doesn't levitate, it doesn't do anything unusual that would prevent it from just sucking out the ground around it and making it fall over. This really is not that hard, guys. :)
Unless enchantments kept those spells from working...  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 20:30:24
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Sorry to interrupt the current thread, but...
I wanted to tell Mr. Baker how much I enjoyed Final Gate and that I am excited at the current condition of the Tel'Quessir in the Realms. I am glad to see the Retreat at an end and elves reclaiming what was once theirs... Between the Thunder Blessing and the return of the elves the face of Faerun could change dramatically! I also liked to see the portrayal of the Sun Elves as heroic and self-sacrificing for the good of the "People" and even the Dalesfolk. Now, the elves of Myth Drannor need to regain the Artblade and the Warblade... Of course their is still the issue of the pesky Drow in the Elven Court, and of course a stronger Zhent presence is not far off... |
ShadowJack |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 20:42:57
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| Rino pointed out in PMs that the Standing Stone has an enchantment on it that repairs damage done to it. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kuyahdon
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 21:15:30
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I finished the reading the book last week. Overall a great read. It has been address, but, dislike the way the epilogue went, especially after reading the spoiler in the Powers of Faerun. I thought at least we get a story on how a new coronal was put in Myth Drannor, and how Fzoul and company handled a new compact...
Perhaps a "The Wizards" stand alone novel featuring Araevin... or another Realms (best of) book to follow him to cover the "missing" years.
Aside on the how the book was wrapped up, I found series a good read. Oh yeah, laugh out loud when Xaplh went "mommy" at the end.
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 22:16:18
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The thing is, if there's an enchantment that causes Rock to Mud or Move Earth from working, there is this wonderful wondrous item that doesn't cost that much money and will still succeed in toppling the rock. It is still a rock just stuck in the ground.
Spade of Colossal Excavation. Most people don't remember this item, or even choose to acknowledge it's existence, but, you can pretty much dig a hole under anything.
Also, if you can find out how far away the enchantment is that prevents spells from working, just cast Polymorph Any Object, turn a huge rock into a tiny rock, drop it on the Standing Stone from a great height, and end the enchantment just before impact. It may self repair, but if the pave-penny is large enough, it will fall over. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jul 2006 : 22:38:07
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It all depends on what one considers to be disrepair. For magic that powerful and ancient, I would personally consider knocking it over to be damaging it - at least, damaging it as it stands, if not the actual stone itself. I would think that as it is a STANDING stone, preventing it from standing would be considered damage. :)
But, anyway, I'd like to hear Rich's explanation of it, as Rino inquired. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 10 Jul 2006 22:42:47 |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 01:29:21
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I read all three books, and while it was good, I have to say it could have been better. I didn't get the feeling that an epic was unfolding. At the personal level, Araevin, Ilsevele, Seiveril and Fflar's stories didn't quite move me either.
However, much thanks to Mr. Baker for a well-above average tale. |
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Final Gate: Chapters 15 - 18 & Epilogue
