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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
 Posted - 18 May 2006 : 07:31:03
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This query might belong in a different section, but I want to post it here since my own memory seems to be failing me at the moment.
Around the time of the Time of Troubles novel series (and modules), I recall being rather shocked at the outcome of of their confrontation at the celestial stariway. This was due in part to the notion that I thought I had read somewhere that in fact Helm and Mystra had been romatically linked (as much as deities can be)...but recently I tried to find the source of that belief, and I am am not sure where I read it...or even if it had not been Mystra but in fact her predecessor (Mystara)...or if I ever did in fact read any such thing at all. Can any of the sages recall any text (novel or game) that mentioned this relatiionship? Or am I just getting delusional in my old age...
thanks
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 11:00:41
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| Some rumors claim that mystra had been forewarned by Helm-as he was called the All-Seeing one- about the coming Time of Troubles so Mystra was prepared in some way for the Time of Troubles. But this had not been confirmed officially. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 12:59:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
This query might belong in a different section, but I want to post it here since my own memory seems to be failing me at the moment.
Around the time of the Time of Troubles novel series (and modules), I recall being rather shocked at the outcome of of their confrontation at the celestial stariway. This was due in part to the notion that I thought I had read somewhere that in fact Helm and Mystra had been romatically linked (as much as deities can be)...but recently I tried to find the source of that belief, and I am am not sure where I read it...or even if it had not been Mystra but in fact her predecessor (Mystara)...or if I ever did in fact read any such thing at all. Can any of the sages recall any text (novel or game) that mentioned this relatiionship? Or am I just getting delusional in my old age...
thanks
Are you sure you're not mis-interpreting the relationship Helm had with Murdane -- an LN lesser power of reason who died as a result of the Dawn Cataclysm -- as something with Mystra instead?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 17:27:26
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| After reading the posts of Shadovar and The Sage, a great fog seems to be lifting from my mind. Both of those things seem familiar (yest i cannot place where i read them), but it seems I have indeed confused Murdane with Mystra....I heard the rumor posted by Shadovar somewhere too....I think all the realmslore is starting to merge into one big mess as senility sets in....thanks for the clarity all. |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 17:39:31
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| I coulda swore that the ToT's novels mentioned that they were lovers..... But it's been years and I can't find any mention in sourcebooks. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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darkflame millithor
Seeker
USA
52 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 19:26:43
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| You are not mistaken,I too read that ! I beleive it was in Guide to the realms ( the source book that had drizzt and elminster on the cover art 2nd edition |
purge all weakness in the cleanzing flame of
rightousness.tear down the false idols of love,compassion,and self-sacrifice.down with the tyranny of the seldarine |
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green knight
Seeker
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 22:03:05
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I also remember reading this, are you sure it is not mentioned in the beginning of the TOT trilogy?
Green Knight |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 22:57:54
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| Are you guys sure you're not thinking of Lathander and Chauntea, or perhaps Torm and the Red Knight? |
Edited by - nbnmare on 18 May 2006 22:59:20 |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 22:59:32
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| I can't recall anything mentioning this love, but for some reason I have a feeling that you're correct. Haven't read the avatars trilogy for a few years though I'm afraid |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 23:00:39
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I am pretty certain that in the novel Shadowdale, at some point, it is mentioned that Helm and Mystra were lovers. As far as I know, this is the only place that particular relationship was mentioned, but I don't remember if it was mentioned before or after Helm "did his duty" on the goddess of magic.
Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the book currently available. I am thinking that Helm lamented having to kill her since they had been lovers after he had done the deed. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 01:25:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
After reading the posts of Shadovar and The Sage, a great fog seems to be lifting from my mind. Both of those things seem familiar (yest i cannot place where i read them), but it seems I have indeed confused Murdane with Mystra....I heard the rumor posted by Shadovar somewhere too....I think all the realmslore is starting to merge into one big mess as senility sets in....thanks for the clarity all.
Actually, no... you are right. It's been so long that I'd actually forgotten the tidbit itself  .
I've found the reference -
quote:
From Waterdeep pg. 97 -
"What did you find out?" Durnan asked, for the first time sitting up straight.
"He discovered that I was in contact with Mystra just before Ao banished the gods," Midnight said. "She gave part of her power to me."
"Correct," Blackstaff replied. "Somehow, Mystra learned of Ao's anger before he exiled the gods. Perhaps Helm warned her, for it's rumored that they were lovers. Be that as it may, Mystra entrusted part of her powers to Midnight, in-tending to recover that part when she entered our world."
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 19 May 2006 01:29:23 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 01:55:37
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quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
Are you guys sure you're not thinking of Lathander and Chauntea, or perhaps Torm and the Red Knight?
No, as we said and Sage pointed out, we were specificially mentioning Mystra and Helm. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 04:01:09
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| So I'm not insane! Well, not based on this evidence at least . . . |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 04:52:24
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| from page 141 to page 151 in the novel Shadowdale, when Helm met Mystra at the celestial stairway, does it mention anything even closely resembeling an affair of the hearts. It seemed to me to be that Helm, while he did not wish to fight Mystra, would redeem himself in the eyes of Ao no matte the cost ( remember he was the only one not cast down and the only one not to loose his godly status). He stated to the effect of; he failed once and would not do so again. This appears to me to be more of a personal issue with Helm, rather than a love affair with mystra. I do see Helm regarding Mystra as not the one responsible for their current dilema though, but he still would not let "anyone" pass. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 19:18:58
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I knew it! Ah!
I had had this connection in the back of my mind for years, and I had no idea why. It was driving me nuts. Helm and Mystra = lovers. Why would I have thought that?
It must be that bit in Shadowdale, wriggling in my subconscious.
Thanks for bringing this up, Chyron, so I could find some closure on that one.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2006 : 07:29:53
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Just wanted to thank all the members and sages for helping me realize that I have not 'completely lost it'...well not yet anyway. But it has opened my eyes to one fact...I really need to go back and start reading some of the older novels again....so writers and authors of current fiction...if you could just take a few years off....that would be great thanks  |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2006 : 07:38:02
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Hmm, the relationship has definately taken a turn in opposite directions then.
As the section on Divine Champions in the PGtF points out. And I'm glad that since the ToT in my own campaign, I was right to have members of Mystra's church being hostile to those of Helm's.
Helm has always been a ho-hum diety for me, then the ToT and the Mazitica novels, and that incident in the Moonshaes, just turned him into something that shouldn't be trusted. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2006 : 08:03:54
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Hmm, the relationship has definately taken a turn in opposite directions then.
As the section on Divine Champions in the PGtF points out. And I'm glad that since the ToT in my own campaign, I was right to have members of Mystra's church being hostile to those of Helm's.
Well, remember this was with the original Mystra that he had that relationship with, not Midnight/Mystra. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2006 : 10:10:01
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Hmm, the relationship has definately taken a turn in opposite directions then.
When one member of a couple kills the other member, it often has an adverse affect on the relationship.   |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2006 : 10:35:28
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Helm has always been a ho-hum diety for me, then the ToT and the Mazitica novels, and that incident in the Moonshaes, just turned him into something that shouldn't be trusted.
Yes, and the thing is, he is my favorite deity of the realms. But since the ToT he has become the whipping boy for many plot lines. Maztica, The Neverwinter Plague, and if I recall from The Rite, there was a council of Helm clerics or Paladins who were questionable.
It seems the label of 'the all seeing' (as a kind of 1984/Big Brother idea) is played up more than the 'god of guardians'aspect.
Poor Helm  ....Now that, the relationship link was pointed out, I recall AO after telling Helm that he would not be cast down to the realms but that he would have other punisment. I guess having to kill his (rumored) lover was part of that...but now I wonder if all of this bad rap caused by his followers is another part of AO's punishment. |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2006 : 14:02:42
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Helm has always been a ho-hum diety for me, then the ToT and the Mazitica novels, and that incident in the Moonshaes, just turned him into something that shouldn't be trusted.
During the ToT he did what he had to do. He didn`t like it, but he did his duty. As for the rest, the helmites in Maztikha aren`t really normal helmites. They probably all have the "heretic of the faith" feat. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2006 : 14:35:35
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| Power of Faerun has a section on what the plans of the church of Helm might be to repair their reputation. I like the idea of the Vigilant Eyes of the Deity working as a sort of inqusition to weed out the Helmites that might project an image that is not condusive to repairing Helm's image. I can only imagine what kind of house the Vigilant Eyes would have to clean over in Maztica, but remember, Bishou Dominicus kind of went nuts when his kid was sacrificed, and the rest just followed his (bad but psychologically unstable) lead. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2006 : 02:54:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Hmm, the relationship has definately taken a turn in opposite directions then.
As the section on Divine Champions in the PGtF points out. And I'm glad that since the ToT in my own campaign, I was right to have members of Mystra's church being hostile to those of Helm's.
Well, remember this was with the original Mystra that he had that relationship with, not Midnight/Mystra. :)
Yep, and I did say since the ToT, not before. |
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Of Helm and Mystra (pre-Midnight)
